nigel on Easter
Nigel wrote this in a previous comment about Easter. I thought it was worth elevating to here.
What God has achieved (is achieving) through Jesus is unique. Jesus was a singular person. There will never and could never be another as Christ-like as he. When the women and other disciples saw the risen Jesus for the first time, they had never seen something like that before. It had never happened like that before. So how, faced with something absolutely unique, do they describe it or understand it? Easy actually, they do the same thing we do - use metaphors. They say “this” is “that”.We say Jesus is “alive again” because we know him as real and present. But we don’t for one minute think it is just alive again like he was before because we know Jesus’ life is changed and can see him in rooms where he has not walked in by a door. He has a wound as large as a fist in his side, but he is not bleeding on anyone’s carpet.
We say “the Lord has appeared to me” because we have encountered the risen Lord or more specifically been encounter by the risen Lord, like a revelation or gift from God, but we don’t for one minute think Mary was staring at a naked man with holes in his hands and just happened to think it was a gardener.
We say “God has raised him up” because we know what vindication is like, and associate feeling shame as being ‘low’ and being praised as being ‘high’ but we don’t for one minute think that it is just about how vertical he is since we can all see that Jesus doesn’t literally have to go up above the clouds over Jerusalem to get to heaven.
We say “death has lost its sting” because we feel our fear of death overcome by God’s love and resonate with the ancient words of hope that the prophet (Hosea I think) testified. But we don’t for one minute take the metaphor to the illogical extreme and think death is literally a forgetful scorpion, that having lost its sting, might find it again if it looks hard enough.
“Died for our sins”, “Wages of sin is death”, “God’s plan”, “Paying the price” all these are metaphors that were formulated to communicate something of the meaning of Jesus’ death and resurrection. They are all metaphors that if taken to the illogical extreme contradict each other (who is being paid – is it the devil or us?), diminish God (God is indebted to someone? God wants Jesus to be abused?) or even trip on their own logic (is it more just to punish someone who is not guilty than to not punish someone who is guilty?)
I love hearing people articulate how God’s saving actions in Christ affect them and our world but I worry about people who confuse these limited and fallible metaphors with that reality of the Gospel.
April 22nd, 2004 at 10:50 am
Phil,
You appear to want to embrace ‘Easter’ but yet reject it.
Is it possible to find out what you think the cross and ressurection is about?
April 22nd, 2004 at 11:44 am
Homer,
As Nigel wrote what you are refering to, maybe you would like to ask him your questions.
April 22nd, 2004 at 2:53 pm
Sorry,
holidays has jaded the brain.
Yes if Nigel could elaborate it would be great.
April 22nd, 2004 at 3:47 pm
Do I want to embrace Easter? Certainly!
What do I think the cross and resurrection is about? I think it is about God’s saving action in the world through Jesus the Christ!
I think it is so fundamentally about this that when I want to know how God loves us, what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and what it would mean for me to more faithfully follow Jesus, I can’t think of a better answer than Jesus’ execution and vindication, as we have just celebrated at this special time of year.
I am not trying to say the meaning of Easter is better communicated in words than actions, but when talking about the resurrection, I can best sum up its meaning in confessions of faith like “Jesus is alive again”, “The Lord appeared to me”, “God rased up Jesus” and “God has victory over sin and death”.
These confessions of faith are limited when compared to the actual mystery of God’s grace. One limitation of these words, these metaphors, is they can lead to literal arguments about “how physical unchanged or the resurrected body is”, “how naked Jesus was once he left his grave clothes behind”, “which day Jesus ascended, or how far into the sky he went” or arguments about “specific metaphysical models of death and personifications of evil”.
I am not sure why you think I reject Easter (you might need to elaborate if I have misunderstood you) but if you think I reject Easter because I was flippantly dismissive of these secondary arguments I will disagree with you. The value of Easter I embrace is far better expressed in those statements of faith I listed first.
When it comes to Easter, how do you “embrace”* it?
(*nice metaphor by the way. Works well with the image of taking up your cross and following Jesus.)
April 24th, 2004 at 11:38 am
Nigel,
I am still unsure on where you sit.
We are all sinners and therefore a Just God must punish us yet you reject this.
you appear to reject the cross as Jesus taking our punishment. If so then how do you gain justification?
You appear to believe in the ressurection however you downplay the the physical ressurection yet this is essential otherwise Jesus was not without sin, he didn’t displace Satan and he is not Lord.
I was lucky enough to be at Sunnybank Baptist on Easter Sunday on holidays and heard a seromon that would have put Sydney Anglicans to shame concerning this topic.
As Paul says if there is no ressurection we believe a lie.
April 25th, 2004 at 9:14 pm
[quote]We are all sinners and therefore a Just God must punish us yet you reject this.[/quote]
I do believe that we are sinners and that God is just. However you are quite right, that I do reject that this means God [b]must[/b] punish us. I am not saying categorically that God can’t punish or doesn’t punish, but I certainly do not agree that there is some mandate or limit on God that that God must punish us.
If we agree on the same data but not the same conclusion I wonder what different assumptions we bring?
My understanding of justice is not built on the fundamental of “punishment”. If I had to name my bias, I’d say my concept of God’s justice is more aligned with “righteousness”. That is: God wants us to be whole and in right relationship with each other, the whole creation, and Godself. So God acts against things that abuse, enslave or are otherwise detrimental to that wholeness.
What have you experienced of justice that means you are biased towards a framework of punishment? Maybe you understand righteousness differently?
[quote]How do you gain justification?[/quote]
The easy answer? God gives it to us!
A more thoughtful response? I can think of two ways I see this happening:
1) God is able to transform people / soften hearts / convert communities / produce good fruit in our lives. So, as I have faith in Jesus and risk following him as my Lord, God is transforming my life and making me more Christ-like and just.
2) The second way is an even better example of the mystery of grace. Even though I am a sinner and stuff things up. Even though our whole world is held captive by the evil. Even though we despised Jesus, torturted and execute him (the kind of unjust punishment those who live in sin metre out on each other). Even though we lack faith and are unjust, God brings good things out of bad situations.
Just look at the resurrection. What better example couldyou want of transform such an unjust event for a positive result?
I believe that the Christ who was lifted up from the earth will ultimately draw all people to him. I believe he is establishing a new world in which he rules with justice. This is not our doing but the Lord’s doing and it is amazing to our eyes!
April 26th, 2004 at 11:38 am
Your theory on justification is interesting but totally lacking any biblical evidence.
Essentially you are saying all sinners get off scott free, something that Paul denies completely.
Moreover there appears to be noreason for Jesus to come to Earth be crucified or even be ressurected in your view, if I am reading you correctly.
April 26th, 2004 at 3:59 pm
[quote]”Essentially you are saying all sinners get off scott free.”[/quote]
I am not saying categorically that they do all sinners do get off scott free, but I am saying there is no mandate restricting God that they can’t get off scott free. Outrageous isn’t it! Imagine even the possibility of someone not deserving God’s grace and favour entering the kingdom of heaven ahead of us!
[quote]”…if I am reading you correctly.”[/quote]
No, I suspect you haven’t understood me.
I wonder if you have confused “justification” that is the process of becoming more just, with a particular metaphysical model of how we can be assured that our souls will get into heaven?
How do you embrace Easter?
April 27th, 2004 at 9:37 am
Nigel, you have interesting views however none have any biblical evidence.
Justification is merely displaying God’ justice in condemning and punishing sin. ( see anywhere in Romans or Galations) Its antecedents is in psalms 32:1-5 , 130 or Luke 18:9-14
In this area we are aquitted of the crime of sin by Christ;s death on the cross.
We don’t get this UNLESS we have faith in christ therough his actions on the cross and his ressurection.
April 28th, 2004 at 2:10 pm
[quote]”Justification is merely displaying God’ justice in condemning and punishing sin.”[/quote]
So we are back to your premise that everything revolves around punishment. I disagree. Reading the Bible, I often come across the idea that the kingdom of God does NOT operate on the principle of determining who has merit and who deserves punishment.
If you think justification is mearly condemning sin, no wonder you are so zealous in looking at other people to find what is wrong with what they do or say. I can see how your actions are consistent with what you believe.
Still, I wonder what this saying means to you:
“The first shall be last and the last shall be first.”
I suggest this is “Biblical evidence” for the possibility I raised of someone not deserving God’s grace and favour entering the kingdom of heaven ahead of us!
April 28th, 2004 at 2:31 pm
Nigel, God hates sin period.
I am not even going to bother to provide evidence of that because it is so obvious.
How are you going to overcome this?
Also of importance is that there is no sin in Heaven.
you have a couple of problems.
you have sinners going to heaven.
you have no distinguishment beteen those who go to hell and those who go to Heaven.
And of course you have no reason why Jesus came to Earth. If there was no point in either the cross or the ressurection what was the point?
It is a central tent of christianity that faith in Jesus simply means faith in what he did on the cross and the ressurrection.
given you do not believe in either just what do you have faith in?
April 28th, 2004 at 5:06 pm
[quote]”…the cross and the ressurrection. given you do not believe in either…”[/quote]
I don’t feel you are listening to me.
Remember when I posted: “when I want to know how God loves us, what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and what it would mean for me to more faithfully follow Jesus, I can’t think of a better answer than Jesus’ execution and vindication.”
These things are very important to me and I was hurt that you would rudely declare I do not believe in these things when I had jsut been sharing myself with you.
But hey, no need to punish yourself over it. I am still prepared to talk to you.
Imagine if you didn’t have to live in fear of being punished. Imagine if God’s primary obective was not hating everysecond thing you did because it is tarnished by sin, but imagine if God was more concerned with wanting to forgive everysecond thing you did - and not only forgive but to heal those things in you that are incomplete and restore the damamge done becasue God wants nothing more than to bring all creation into perfect relationship.
April 29th, 2004 at 1:52 pm
Nigel, I am not trying to be rude to you although my wife dose saying I am very trying!
Your threads leaves me somewhat confused.
If I read you correctly then you are saying God forgives sinners for no reason. Ie he forgives some and doesn’t forgive others.
Some people go the Heaven and some go to hell. Sounds similar to Islam.
Moreover you are implying sinners can gain entrance to Heaven which is a lot different to forgiven sinners entering Heaven.
How is this decided?
Are you saying the only reason for the uniqueness of Jesus is to give us a vision of Heaven?
given that Jesus talks more about Hell than anyone else in the N/T you avoid the topic.
You sound like a modern version of Marcion.