Sin and repentence - an answer to George
In the comments thread below, George asks:
Hey Dan, how aout a response to my questions above about how do we show God’s love to a sinner that needs to repent?
My answer started out as a comment, but got too long. So here it is:
My answer is that we all know how to show love to someone - you love them. You accept them, you welcome them, you serve them, you honour them. The way that we show love is not dependent on whether we think someone has something to repent or not.
As for the question of how to respond to someone who I think is engaging in sinful behaviour, I find that difficult to answer as a blanket statement. I certainly have in the past challenged people about the way that they are behaving and will do in the future. But I am not comfortable with a generalisation that would suggest I should do that in every situation which arises.
I feel that sin and repentence is between God and each of us. I believe that everyone is a work in progress in this respect. I take seriously the admonition to remove the log from my own eye before I point out the speck in someone elses. Ultimately the only repentence or sin that I can address is my own.
I take seriously the call that I outlined previously to show the most love and most service to the “least of these”. I don’t think that the reason we should show the most love and most service to the least of these is for the purposes of evangelism. I think that it lies at the core of what being a christian is about, and is not an exercise in winning disciples.
I believe that church is a community of people who want to worship God together. I believe that too often it has become a club open only to those who pass entrance requirements. I have seen sin and repentence used as a justification for saying “shape up or ship out” and observed many people ship out. I have watched most of the people I grew up with at church abandon their faith. I have watched most of my unchurched friends perceive the church as an institution obsessed with the personal sexual morality of others at a time when it can’t control the behaviour of its own clergy.
I believe that worshipping God in community is a positive thing for all people, no matter how sinful or unrepentant.
I believe that every member of our church is sinful, as am I. Do not interpret my words as saying people can do whatever they want and call themselves Christian. At our church we expect that our members will be practising the spiritual disciplines and engaging with each other and their community in a whole range of ways.
I and other members of our congregations have committed to regularly keeping each other accountable to our spiritual disciplines and to challenging ourselves to grow closer to God and each other.
There are people who are a part of our church who might not be comfortable or welcome in many other churches. I think that is a good thing. I don’t think anything would be achieved by me confronting some of those people with their sins. I sure as hell wouldn’t like them to do the same to me.
June 24th, 2004 at 11:13 pm
Homer,
This is about the fourth time on this site that you have dismissed th fact that your opinion of homosexuality is but one opinion among many on the issue. There are plenty of scholars who would disagree with you, as you know. I have posted the links before.
And, once again, you have attempted to link homosexuality to adultery. This is mixing apples and oranges. One is clearly a sin, as it causes harm. The other is not so clear, as it is questionable who is harmed.
Let me try to be clear; there are many Christians who do not consider homosexuality a sin. These Christians base this on their reading of the scriptures, and the message of Christ. There are others who come to the opposite conclusion, based on their study of the scriptures.
To claim that your understanding is superior to those who differ from you does not allow any dialogue within the Church. Without being able to listen to one another, we cannot discern the will of God. Which leaves us with nothing but petty human debate.
And that’s where we are. So be it. If it must be debate, then I will say that I have no doubt that your position is in error, based on my study of the scriptures, my reading of Church history, and my experience of God moving in the world today.
June 24th, 2004 at 11:26 pm
Phil I think you are skirting around the issue. You have stated your belief, why is it you won’t answer the other questions. When these situations arise, and no doubt they will, what will your standard be in determining your answers. People will be looking to you as a spiritual leader for answers.
In light of your stated opinion, what should the age of consent be? In Canada its 14 and I think that’s a shame.
At what point, in your opinion may a gay person begin to have sex?
So a 15 year old boy comes up to you after church one day and tells you he is gay and is having a relationship with a 55 year old man who he met at the coffee shop. He’s heard that you endorse same sex relationships in your church and wants to know if his particular relationship is ok? How would you answer that and based on what standard?
June 24th, 2004 at 11:42 pm
You’ve chucked in a whole bunch of variables there george.
Why just ask about age of conscent for gay people? Do you think it should be different than for everyone else? Would you make it illegal altogether?
Why does it make a difference in terms of this question whether it’s a gay boy or a girl. I would have a number of concerns with a guy or a girl going out with a 55 year old they met in a coffee shop. I’m not sure what specific relevence that has to do with being gay?
I’m assuming that when you say ‘relationship’, you include having sex, given that you are talking about age of consent. Why assume that a gay relationship is more likelty to be a sexualy active one than a straight one, of you are?
June 25th, 2004 at 9:26 am
Amen Steve
June 25th, 2004 at 11:18 am
That’s it I guess eh Phil, get to some of the nitty gritty of this discussion and its an amen to somebody else’s thoughts?
The reason I was asking about 15 year old boy was because the issue we were discussing was same sex relationships. If you wish to make it a 15 year old lesbian that’s ok too. I thought the discussion was about same sex relationships.
Of course in heterosexual relationships the Bible is clear about sex within a marriage covenant and all else is adultery. Or do you not agree with that either?
Come on Phil you stated your stand why can’t you answer the practical questions that you just know are going to come up. You will have to answer them at some point, why not now?
Jake I’d appreciate your response as well.
June 25th, 2004 at 11:30 am
Steve makes a common error which Jake often makes in thinking that asking people to repent is somehow making yourself perfect or superior.
You can only ask people to repent if you understand sin. If this is the case then you know you are a sinful person too. moral superiority is impossible.
Jesus when on earth said REPENT for the kingdom of God is near. He said he came to help sinners.
Now we are all sinners so what do you think he meant?
quite clearly Dan,Phil, Steve and Jake have not comprehended the lesson of either Hebrews or 1 Corinthians.
There is no suggestion you allow to keep on coming to church if they are deliberately subverting the Gospel. We are supposed to be a holy people after all.
you have to ask yourselves since we meet to edify ourselves how is this possible when people of the church are indulging in behaviour that is reprehensible to God.
Jake, when major issues come up I look to major intellectual christian powerhouses to see what has been said on the topic.
In Australia it is Moore College and Overseas it is places such as Trinity Evagelical Divinity School etc.
As I said before A book came out on this subject early this year edited I think by Wayne Gruden. I was not surprised to see views such as those you advocate the result of poor scholarship.
by the way homosexuality must be definition be ither adultery or fornication!
June 25th, 2004 at 2:33 pm
George, I believe that human sexuality is only appropriately expressed within the confines of holy matrimony.
That is the teaching of the Church. That is what I teach. That is what I would tell a young person. I am also a mandatory reporter. The scenario you described is one of abuse. I would report it.
As far as I am concerned, the same sex couples I know are joined in holy matrimony. Since this is not allowed legally by the secular state, or canonically by the Church, they have to call it all kinds of other things…blessings, commitment service, etc. I consider them married. Some of the gay couples I know have been together for 15 years now…a better track record than some of the hetero couples I know.
Do I go after couples that are living together outside of Holy Matrimony to chastise them for their sin? No. But those with whom I serve know the teaching of the Church…I have preached about it a few times.
The idea that we must remove unrepentant sinners from the Church is abhorable to me. “The harvest is at the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.” We are not to weed God’s harvest. In our zeal, we may uproot healthy grain. It is God who convicts others of sin. Sometimes, repentance takes longer with some than others.
I also preach about the sin of making a profit from the misfortune of others, but I don’t chastise the banker for charging his clients interest, even though I know it is a sin.
And then there are the areas that I know are a sin for me, but do not know if that is true for another. It is a sin for me to drink a beer. Is it a sin for you? I don’t really know.
June 25th, 2004 at 4:12 pm
“I thought the discussion was about same sex relationships.” –george
and yes it is, you asked a quesiton and about a homosexual situation and you got a clear answer saying that the sex & sexuality of the exsample people was irrelivant, why claim that the question was avoided?
June 25th, 2004 at 4:12 pm
Jake,
If you look carefully the outlawing of usury was at the Israelites charging imterest to fellow Israelites in their time of need. Who is my neighbour?
It did not apply to business transactions of today as Callvin for one showed and he was no friend of bankers.
June 25th, 2004 at 4:15 pm
If I can add to George’s line if a ‘loving’ relationship is all right then a loving adulterous, fornicating or even incestous relationship must be okay as long as it is loving.
June 25th, 2004 at 4:15 pm
If I can add to George’s line if a ‘loving’ relationship is all right then a loving adulterous, fornicating or even incestous relationship must be okay as long as it is loving.
June 25th, 2004 at 5:07 pm
If I can add to George’s line if a ‘loving’ relationship is all right then a loving adulterous, fornicating or even incestous relationship must be okay as long as it is loving.
What tosh. Homer - have you ever seen in anything other than black and white? What Jake says doesn;t imply that in any way - only in your polarised mind.
June 25th, 2004 at 5:09 pm
Steve makes a common error which Jake often makes in thinking that asking people to repent is somehow making yourself perfect or superior.
Which blog are you reading? Is that your way of dismissing critisism of yourself? I said that you set yourself up as morrally superior, and refuse to allow others to be less than perfect - but not becasue you are asking people to repent, but because of who you are, which will be for a variety of reasons. I can’t see how any observer reading these comments could disagree with that.
Then I suggested that was why you are unable to allow people grace, and seem so eager, almost gleefull in wanting to rebuke and exclude people.
‘deliberatly subverting the gospel’. Deliberate is an interesting word. What about if someone is unintentionaly subvertiNg the gospel, or doesn’t believe they are subverting the gospel. I would guess from what you have said, that you really mean when you believe they are subverting the gospel. Thanks God you don’t have any known/unknown unrepentant sins. Or do you?
Homer do you believe it’s possible that you have unknown unrepentant sins. If I believe you have unrepentant sin which you refuse to acknowledge, do I have the right to run you out of the church, or out of a faith community such as Signposts? Would that be for your own good? I by the way, am absolutley convoinced that God will continue to challenge us on stuff As I grow as a Christian - 10 years in now - in 40 years I imagine he still will be.
Arrogance for example?
your statements leads me to think you really don’t understand why people meet with each other on sundays or any other day.
Phil, it appears you Steve and Jake don’t understand why we meet on sunday.
all this happens because you didn’t love someone enough to assist them in their christan life.
Steve makes a common error
quite clearly Dan,Phil, Steve and Jake have not comprehended the lesson of either Hebrews or 1 Corinthians.
I was not surprised to see views such as those you advocate the result of poor scholarship
June 25th, 2004 at 5:29 pm
Dear commenters,
Please dial it down a little on this thread. We encourage discussion and debate, but personal attacks are not constructive.
This is not directed at one person, there have been comments from a number of people which have skated close to the edge.
Love,
Dan
June 25th, 2004 at 6:02 pm
Yeah - apologies…
June 26th, 2004 at 4:15 pm
Steve,
I guess you wouldn’t apreciate Christ then as he was ARROGANT enought to demand that he was the only way to God via the Cross.
He was very judgemental!
You are not edifying, encouraging etc in their walk with God if you stay mute whilst thet sin no matter whether it is deliberate or unconcious. The purpose of meeting each sunday is to encourage.
You cannot worship God if you are sinning. you can if you are repenting of the sin. Usually but not always this will be private ie between God and you however sometimes it will be public.
One of the clear lessons of 1 corinthinians is that people who deliberately subvert the Gospel are to be expelled from the church until change. I haven’t come accross this happening yet but neither have I came accross a church yet that didn’t understand this.
June 26th, 2004 at 6:57 pm
homer could you point me to the verse where jesus says:
“I am the way the truth and the light, no one gets to the father except through me via the cross”
such direction would be enlightening
June 26th, 2004 at 10:34 pm
Homer
I fundementally disagree with your approach to pretty much everythign, the bible, Jesus, what it means to live as a Christian, individualyy and together, and I imagine the same would be true in reverse. I see no point of connection between us. I find it very hard to find comprehension or value in what you say, and it seems you don’t truely hear a word I say either. It feels very much as if your purpose in discussion is not so much to discuss as to explain. For my part mostly what happens is that I get annoyed, and reply in kind, and I don;t like that about myself.
I imagine that you will see this as me not understanding the truth which you seem to beileve you hold in full, and so be it. I’m happy to believe that I hold truth only partially, and that our understanding is a always flawed, and I’m happy for you to disagree with that.
For the record I don;t think Jesus was arrogant. Arrogance isn’t so much about what one says, but about attitude. Jesus was a humble guy who excercised great authority and truth wisely. If anyone had a right to be arrogant, Jesus did - and I certainly don’t believe he was. I hope that I can better learn to imitate him - at the moment, today, this is the best I can do.
With that i’m taking a break from blogging, and from commenting, God bless you, and every else on signposts. Steve
June 27th, 2004 at 4:18 pm
Gareth,
It is what the N/T is all about.
I might add no person more than Jesus talks about Hell and its implications.
If you stay mute whilst a person continues to sin where do you think that means they are heading and do you have a responsibility for that.
Steve , I am sorry to hear your comments.
you see even Jesus had harsh words to the reigious of his day.
Ironically enough Paul is quite harsh to people who he observes to have gone off the track.
you see your version and my version of the bible are not compatible.
Indeed in another post talks of Elijah. He was quite depressed that he believed no-one shared his love for god’s law. Israel as a whole like to be tolerant and welcomed other religious practices into their kingdom.
In some ways we humans never change.
June 27th, 2004 at 6:42 pm
Predictable…
June 28th, 2004 at 5:46 am
Amen to that Homer
June 28th, 2004 at 10:44 am
Yes Steve that is because the Bible is entirely predictable.
Trying to imitate Jesus sounds fine in theory however he lived on Earth without sin. ( some people would even say He had no need to repent). we sin each day every day. This makes it following his example impossible.
I think WWJD is a better way of approaching an admirable idea.