10 Responses to “Christian ‘family values’ have changed throughout history”

1. 1
   saint Says:
   February 7th, 2005 at 9:59 am

   OK I’ll bite. A different point of view.

   *Jesus was a Jew whose ministry was primarily focussed to his contemporary Jews even though he had the wider Gentile mission in mind and mixed freely with Gentiles. His teaching was based on the OT - what he did though was take peoples expectations/contemporary beliefs, strip them of all their militaristic, ritualistic and nationalistic elements, and reorientate the OT teaching around himself thereby revealing the new out of the old (about the best I can do in a sentence!)
   *The earliest Christians were predominantly Jews. They understood Jesus through a Jewish interpretative framework. People’s reaction say - to some of Jesus parables - can only be understood in from within that framework. Peter’s first sermon after Pentecost can only be understood if you add the whole history of redemption to that point and what we know of 1st century Jewish expectations into the mix etc etc. (This is not to say that only Jews are portrayed in the gospels or that the message did not spread to Gentiles. Duh. But their scripture was the Jewish scripture; they originally worshipped in synagogues…)
   *While we have few extant ancient text sources, what we do have - along with other archaeological data etc - suggest hat homosexuality and ‘gay relationships’ were known in the ancient world. Plato’s Symposium anyone?
   *Judaism has consistently opposed homosexuality as in keeping with Torah. Post Christ, the earliest extant rabbinical sources are late (about 200AD I think - no access to my library at the mo) but are still unequivocal.
   * the books of the Bible are not a how to do book, or a manual of trench warfare. They do not provide an exhaustive lists of dos and dont’s. But they are sufficient. That God inspired the books can be summarised by saying that everything in there is what God intended to be in there.
   * there is no mention of Jesus condemning homosexuality
   * well this is a man raised as a Jew who was confounding religious leaders as a teen who predominantly preached to Jews in his public ministry (how often do the gospel records make note that we find him in synagogues and the Temple?)
   * would Jesus have needed to state the obvious?
   * in fact Jesus’s arguments with the Pharisees seem to be around divorce, ritual purity, Sabbath. Given that Jesus’s primary message was about the kingdom of God, I wonder if in reading those accounts we are meant to understand that Jesus was saying something about faithfulness, righteousness and grace and in doing so also establishing himself as the new Torah without denying or contradicting the old.
   *similarly his teaching to the masses was primarily focused on the kingdom of God and again we find him saying some interesting things about himself.
   *Was the purpose of Jesus ministry therefore to give us and exhaustive list of instructions or just set an example? (we can never do what Jesus did anyway, that is redeem the world….) Or perhaps to tell us the next bit of the story, the story of which Christ is both the infinite centre and generative centre…

   Not sure if I summarised that well enough but hey it took me years to understand this myself. And I’m still learning. But really, when I look the individual bits as part of the greater story, the story of Christ from Genesis to Revelation, it all just….fits. What would Jesus do? This much I know. He would never bless a gay marriage as one which is pleasing to God. Although he may give grace to those in such relationships and open their eyes and hearts to Himself.

2. 2
   Homer Paxton Says:
   February 7th, 2005 at 12:57 pm

   amen to that Saint.

   slaves in O/t and N/T times was principally because of the lack of bankruptcy laws. something anyone who has been to Pakistan can sympathise with. It was across racial lines as well.

   I am unaware of ay biblical ‘proof’ for banning ‘interracial marriages. I am aware of ‘christians’ stating this but giving no proof.

   To state the obvious if you say that same sex marriages are okay you must be also saying homosexual ectivity is okay and there is clear biblical evidence against that.

3. 3
   phil Says:
   February 7th, 2005 at 1:57 pm

   Hi Saint, nice comment. I obviously difer in my conclusions about what Jesus would do - but that is ok. I appreciated your breadth of your comment and even can respect your position although I differ from it if that makes sense. I can see how you get there if you like..

   But, do you agree with the author when they write :”We cannot claim that premodern Christianity was ever “pro-gay.” Other
   scholars (Mark Jordan and Bernadette Brooten, for example) document
   the darker sides of Christianity’s views on same-sex relationships.
   But we must recognize that the terms of the argument have changed.
   Just as marriage was understood quite differently then, so were
   same-sex relationships (indeed, sexuality itself). Clearly then,
   simply appealing to “biblical values” or “Christian tradition” will
   not settle the issue for contemporary Christians. Crafting a faithful
   stance must deal with the contemporary context.”

   It is this statement I think is key, as one who has to put up with accusations of not believing in the bible, nor God, or even disagreeing with all of Christian tradition.

   Homer, “slaves in O/t and N/T times was principally because of the lack of bankruptcy laws. something anyone who has been to Pakistan can sympathise with. It was across racial lines as well.” Please tell me that you are not suggesting that made it ok or a part of God’s design/will or whatever word you would like to use?

4. 4
   Homer Paxton Says:
   February 7th, 2005 at 9:14 pm

   Phil,
   I am putting the subject into context.
   People went bankrupt. They had no way of paying the debt off thus they became slaves. This happens in Pakistan today.
   Remember in O/T times debts were supposed to be forgiven after a certain time.
   In the N/T owners have strong responsibilities for having slaves.
   It stopped as thus when bankruptcy laws came into force.
   Unfortunately most people only know ofslavery from the US history. This is where mainly African muslims sold other african to white traders.

5. 5
   saint Says:
   February 8th, 2005 at 1:28 am

   Gosh Phil on rereading my comment I don’t think I did a good job of explaining. And that is only one of many threads which have lead me to the same conclusion (I think I have pointed out others in the past…but all roads lead to Jerusalem *grin*). Thanks for making the effort to understand - and while I think you know, I should point out to others reading this that I am speaking here of Christians (not non-Christians, gay rights in the wider community etc.)

   I think Christianity has never been pro-gay as a whole. There are categorical condemnations of homosexuality in the earliest (Greek) church fathers which would suggest perhaps (when put together with other evidence) that the issue was raised as the church became increasingly Gentile and drew converts from non-Jewish backgrounds. Even Paul’s letters and his own statements on the issue would support that. But as this article points out there has been variance - but it’s still the exception/rarity rather than the rule. And from what little I know of Christian history there would indeed be dark sides.

   As to this statement:
   ‘But we must recognize that the terms of the argument have changed.
   Just as marriage was understood quite differently then, so were
   same-sex relationships (indeed, sexuality itself). Clearly then,
   simply appealing to “biblical values” or “Christian tradition” will
   not settle the issue for contemporary Christians. Crafting a faithful
   stance must deal with the contemporary context.” ‘

   I know what he’s trying to get at but I don’t think I could agree. Primarily because he starts from the wrong end. This statement seems to say, the nature of relationships or our understanding has changed so we reinterpret God’s teaching. No, I would say that our relationships are defined by God, they are derivative not definitive. Not sure if I used the right words to summarise such a huge topic. (Another way is to think of it this way: the general “rule” for theology in the Bible is start with God and then work to man back to God)

   I want to explain why I disagree a bit more but it’s aweful late and I should get some shut eye for work…so I might take a rain check for now and come back to this again (if you are interested….you must get really really tired of this and I am sure you have heard my sort of arguments before)

6. 6
   Heather Says:
   August 22nd, 2005 at 2:49 pm

   Stumbled upon the site while researching Christian articles about Bankrupcy. I was sidetracked by the article. I enjoyed Saint’s comments, and just wanted to leave you with a wonderful quote by Scott Wilder (a talk radio host):

   Right is right even if no one is doing it. Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it. - Scott Wilder

   Just because what is socially acceptable changes through history, does not mean that the Bible’s stand on it changes. For instance, you may see half of America’s teen girls wearing hip-huggers that are so low you can see below their underwear line, shorts that expose their entire legs and even half of their hind-end from under their glittery fringe, and belly-shirts that in some cases even reveal the UNDERside of their cleavage. This does not mean that it is a new standard in “family values” accepted universally by all American Christians. Just because someone (who states that they are a Christian and attend a Christian affiliated church) allows their 16 year old to dress like this (like a hooker) does not mean that ALL (true) Christians accept this.

   People do what they believe. We act on our theology (or to use a popular term: “Worldview”). If we believe the TRUTH in the Bible, we live our life according to it’s principles. If we do not, and yet claim to be Christian, we are liars… or we are backsliders needing a good dose of God’s refining discipline (been there, more than once, have the T-shirt). Either way, we are known by our actions, not our words.

   I leave you with these two thoughts that sum up my comment nicely:

   Matthew 7:20 - Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (KJV)

   James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (KJV)

   We can not rewrite the Bible to suit our own needs. Just because society changes, God’s heart, mind, and call do not. We can move away or towards Him. There are only two directions to go… we should find out what pleases Him and seek it with our whole self. This way, we assure our path is the correct direction.

   Ephesians 5:10 - and find out what pleases the Lord. (NIV)

   New International Version (NIV)
   Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

7. 7
   Lance Says:
   October 16th, 2006 at 3:16 pm

   The American religious right has succeeded in gaining another foothold in the Australian church.

   Churches of Christ in WA is advertising a ‘Bringing Home The Prodigals’ event, put on by Focus On The Family …a Christian family support organisation founded by Dr. James Dobson, which has turned decidedly political in recent years in its close ties with the US Republican Party…and its strong anti-gay stance.

   http://chat2gether.cocwa.org.au/2006/10/12/bringing-home-the-prodigals/

   A senior Focus on the Family figure will be appearing on Friday at South Perth Church of Christ, pastored by John Bond, who was one of several Perth church leaders who addressed an anti-gay rally at the WA state Parliament.

   Part of the publicity blurb for Friday’s visit to the church by Focus on the Family reads..

   “As you know, we are committed to serving the local church and strengthening families across in this nation. Each day we receive calls from families describing their prodigal story, be it a son, a daughter, husband or other family member.
   We believe that providing an opportunity for the Christian community to come together in prayer for their prodigal’s (sic), is a vital and key aspect of restoring the family.

   It can also be a confronting message as there are other players in this story such as the older brother. All too often family members, even the church have played the role of older brother too well. Thus, the message of bringing home the prodigals is one of healing and hope.”

   However, at the same time….Focus on the Family was yesterday an active player in ‘Liberty Sunday’.. a campaign to deny rights to the ‘gay prodigals’…

   “Learn what happens when the gay agenda and freedom of speech tackle each other — and what you can do.”

   http://www.family.org/cforum/extras/a0042209.cfm

   Focus on The Family is very much playing the ‘older brother’ on the gay issue… (’we’re righteous fundies, give us our inheritance”)….

   The organisation has had a lower key approach in its campaigning in Australia, but the mindset from head office in Colarado Springs is no different here.

   Perhaps WA Churches of Christ are ripe for American religious right infiltration, but perhaps some of the more thinking Church of Christers can recognise what organisations like Focus on the Family and the Christian Democratic Party and Family First are up to, using local churches for their own political power purposes.

   Sometimes a conference about the Prodigals is just a conference about the Prodigals.

   This is not just a conference about the Prodigals.

   It’s about the American religious right building its support base in Western Australia through collaborations with local churches.

   But who knows, the religious right might one day realise its sins, and humbly return to the Father.

8. 8
   Lance Says:
   October 16th, 2006 at 3:50 pm

   “I stepped into the Oval Office to find President George W. Bush prowling behind his desk looking for something. “Kuo!” he said without looking up. “Tell me about this meeting.”

   It was June 2003, and I was deputy director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. The office had opened in the West Wing in 2001 to support the President’s campaign promise of $8 billion a year in new funding for both religious and secular charities that helped the poor. That money never materialized, however, and I was increasingly stuck with the task of explaining to religious groups why the White House was so bad at helping them do good. This meeting, with a group of prominent African-American pastors who had supported Bush’s plan, promised to be no different. I began to brief the President on the pastors, recommending that he talk about the administrative reforms we had implemented, and the tax credits we were still fighting for …

   He interrupted. “Forget about all that. Money. All these guys care about is money. They want money. How much money have we given them?” I never doubted the President’s own faith or desire to help those who, like him, had once been lost in a world of alcohol or, unlike him, had struggled with poverty or drugs. Because I shared his faith and his vision of compassionate conservatism, I had been a very good soldier. When members of his senior staff mocked the plan as the “f___ing faith-based initiative,” I didn’t say a word. When his legislative-affairs team summarily dismissed our attempts to shoehorn our funding into the budget, I smiled and continued trying to work neatly within the system. When I heard staff privately deriding evangelical Christians because they were so easily seduced by White House power, I raised an eyebrow but not a ruckus. Like everyone else in the small faith-based office, I didn’t speak too loudly or thunder too much. We were the nice guys.

   Today, however, I decided to choose honesty over niceness. Two months earlier, I had been diagnosed with a brain tumor that required intensive surgery and rehabilitation. This was my first meeting with the President and Karl Rove since my return. Something about undergoing brain surgery had made me reflect about whether I had really been doing a public service by pretending that our office had been living up to its commitments.

   I glanced over at Karl and turned to look the President in the eye. “Sir, we’ve given them virtually nothing,” I said, “because we have had virtually nothing new to give.” The President had been looking down at some papers about the event, but his head jerked up. “Nothing? What do you mean we’ve given them nothing?” He glared. “Don’t we have new money in programs like the Compassion Fund thing?”

   I looked again at Karl. He seemed stunned at what I was saying. “No, sir,” I told the President. “In the past two years we’ve gotten less than $80 million in new grant dollars.” The number fell shockingly short of the $8 billion he had vowed to deliver in the first year alone.

   The President’s staff didn’t just bad-mouth the faith-based office behind closed doors. Their political indifference also kept us from getting the funding we needed so badly. No episode captured that more clearly than the 2001 negotiations over the President’s $1.7 trillion tax cut. In those final negotiations with the Senate and House, the White House voluntarily dropped a centerpiece of the President’s compassion promise: a provision to allow 80% of Americans to get credit for their charitable contributions.

   Now the President seemed shocked at the news that the Compassion Fund was a pittance. “What?! What do you mean?” he asked. Karl, still caught off guard, protested. “But what about the other money? You know, the money we’ve opened up to new charities.”

   I hated any clash with Karl. Especially now. The morning after my tumor diagnosis, Karl was among the first people to call. “I know what you are going through,” he said. “I’ve spent more days and nights of my life than I can count in a cancer ward.” He explained that his wife was a double breast-cancer survivor, encouraged me for the fight ahead, and offered any assistance I needed. Now, less than two months later, I was standing in front of the President exposing an ugly truth that Karl would rather not have discussed: after two years in office, we had actually spent less than 1% of what Bush had promised.

   I was also contradicting our office’s own spin. In an effort to divert attention from all the money that wasn’t being given to faith-based groups, we had come up with the idea of highlighting the amount of money now “available” to faith-based organizations because of particular administrative reforms announced six months earlier. It was one of those wonderful Washington assertions that is simultaneously accurate and deceptive and just confusing enough to defy opposition. On the one hand, we had eliminated some ancient and patently absurd regulations, many of them promulgated under seemingly faith-phobic Democratic Administrations, that discriminated against faith-based groups simply because they might have a religious-sounding name. The Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty, for instance, was once denied the chance to apply for a federal grant even though it was an entirely secular organization.

   On the other hand, faith-based groups had actually been getting chunks of that money for decades, and the regulations we put in place really didn’t tackle the biggest problem facing secular and religious nonprofits. That problem was the general bureaucratic unfriendliness of the Federal Government to small, local organizations—precisely the kind that compassionate conservatives like Bush (and I) thought could do the best job tackling ingrained poverty and hopelessness on the community level. We were supposed to give these small groups their first shot, but without any money, our office was resigned to making mostly symbolic changes.

   None of that had stopped the White House from trumpeting the changes as hugely significant and leading religious conservatives to believe they were highly consequential. Christian conservatives trusted President Bush. After two years in the White House, I had come to realize that regardless of where the President’s heart lay on the matter, the back-office Republican political machine was able to take Evangelicals for granted—indeed, often viewed them with undisguised contempt—and still get their votes. G.O.P. operatives trusted that Christian conservatives would see the President more as their Pastor in Chief than anything else. Bush had long used the podium as a pulpit, telling voters that above all he was an evangelical Christian who had been saved from his drinking by Jesus and rebuilt his life around his faith. That inspirational story was carried throughout the country by a network of prominent evangelical pastors who had been quietly working since 1998 to recruit thousands of other pastors to join the Bush team. After the election, however, those same pastors became accomplices in their own deception by not demanding that the President’s actions in office match their electoral fervor.

   This White House is certainly not the first Administration to milk religious groups for votes and then boot them unceremoniously back out to pasture. In his days as a notorious “hatchet man” for President Richard M. Nixon, before he had allowed Jesus to transform his life, Chuck Colson used to oversee outreach to the religious community. “I arranged special briefings in the Roosevelt Room for religious leaders, ushered wide-eyed denominational leaders into the Oval Office for private sessions with the President,” Colson later wrote. “Of all the groups I dealt with, I found religious leaders the most naive about politics. Maybe that is because so many come from sheltered backgrounds, or perhaps it is the result of a mistaken perception of the demands of Christian charity … Or, most worrisome of all, they may simply like to be around power.”

   I finished the briefing. Yes, I told the President, because of new regulations there was technically about $8 billion in existing funding that was now more accessible to faith-based groups. But, I assured him, those organizations had been getting money from those programs for years and it wasn’t that big a deal.

   “Eight billion in new dollars?” he asked.

   “No, sir. Eight billion in existing dollars where groups will find it technically easier to apply for grants. But faith-based groups have been getting that money for years.”

   “Eight billion,” he said. “That’s what we’ll tell them. Eight billion in new funds for faith-based groups. O.K., let’s go.”

   We headed out of the Oval Office, down a flight of stairs and over to the Old Executive Office Building, where the pastors awaited us. The President walked into the room, traded a few jokes and told the group that because of the faith-based initiative, billions of dollars in new funds were now available to faith-based groups like theirs. The pastors listened respectfully. Before the President left, they prayed for him.

   Karl stayed behind to share some thoughts and answer questions. “Before I get started, I want to say something. This initiative isn’t political,” he told them. “If I walked into the Oval Office and said it was going to be political, the President would bash my head in.”

   Then the questions began. “Since the President brought up money, where, exactly is that money?” asked one pastor. “We’ve talked to the Cabinet Secretaries, and they say there isn’t any new money.” They peppered him with questions for several minutes. Finally he smiled at them and said, “Tell you what, I’m going to get those guys in a room and bash some heads together and get to the bottom of this. I’ll be back in touch with you.” He left confidently.

   At the meeting’s end, several of the pastors said they wanted to pray for my healing. They placed their hands on my shoulder and called on God to hear their prayers on my behalf. I listened and loved it and said a prayer of my own: that I would have the courage to tell them what was really going on at the White House.

   That was more than three years ago. Their prayers have worked on my body. I am still here and very much alive. Now I am finding the courage to speak out about God and politics and their dangerous dance. George W. Bush, the man, is a person of profound faith and deep compassion for those who suffer. But President George W. Bush is a politician and is ultimately no different from any other politician, content to use religion for electoral gain more than for good works. Millions of Evangelicals may share Bush’s faith, but they would protect themselves—and their interests—better if they looked at him through the same coldly political lens with which he views them.”

   Adapted from the book Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction by David Kuo, published by Free Press

   From http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546374,00.html

9. 9
   alan Says:
   October 16th, 2006 at 9:04 pm

   Lance re Dobsons mob,do you think the Australian church,in this case CofC in WA,is political astute,dumb,stupid or just plain ignorant of the agressive poltical agendas run by groups like focus on the family.
   Check out the role played by dobson in the USA aid policy: “Religious right wields clout”( Part 2 of a series of 4 articles in the Boston Globe: wwww.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/10/09/religious_right_wields_clout/ -personal and vicious).
   And just how many Australian staff of YWAM have any idea of what their organisation is up to in the States:”BBC did not know of 9/11 film’s link to religious right”Guardian 13/9/06: http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11story/0,,1871149,00.html/

10. 10
    Lance Says:
    October 17th, 2006 at 3:34 pm

    To take the last point first, I’ve heard some of the writers of The Path To 9/11 being interviewed, and I’m satisfied that they just set out to write a non-political historic-entertainment piece for a major television network..
    There’s an extended discussion on it here

    http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/LOSANGELES-CA/KFI-AM/Ziegler0912067P.mp3

    continuing here

    http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/LOSANGELES-CA/KFI-AM/Ziegler0912068P.mp3

    and continuing here

    http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/LOSANGELES-CA/KFI-AM/Ziegler0912069P.mp3

    As for the WA church of Christers and the religious right… I think most of the Church of Christers here would work in tandem with Focus on The Family, because Focus has not been politically active in Australia….and have won over the churches with their anti-drugs materials.

    But there’s the prospect of a repeat of what happened in the US…where Focus was primarily a teacher of ‘good parenting’….which baited the Christians..and won them over ..and THEN….Dobson switched to a strongly right-wing political strategy..AFTER the Christians and the churches were on board.

    Are we as stupid enough in Western Australia to fall for the same bait and switch?

    Probably.

    Reading through the list of churches that supported the anti-gay rally at state Parliament a few years ago…only a handful of WA churches did NOT support the rally, fearing it would alienate gay people from linking up with churches.

    Behold, the Pharisee Shame List.

    http://www.churchinperth.com/site/adetails.asp?ArticleID=102

    “We believe no formal recognition should be given to same sex relationships.

    The signatories below, along with the churches and associations they represent, believe that the Gallop Government should give no formal recognition to same sex relationships. Marriage and homosexual relationships are not equivalent and therefore should not be treated as equivalent under the law. Justice is a matter of treating equal things equally. To elevate homosexual relationships to the level of marriage is to degrade marriage.

    Albany Baptist Church (J Power); Albany Family Church (Ps D Et A Chrispin); Albany Foursquare Church (D Percival); Anglican Diocese of North West Australia (Dr Anthony Nichols, Bishop); Antioch Christian Ministries (L Miller); Ark Christian Centre (Ps D & A Boots); Armadale/Kelmscott Baptist; Assemblies of God Western Australia; Attadale Baptist Church (Ps J Gibbon); Atwell Baptist; Augusta/Margaret River Baptist: Australind Baptist; Balga Church of Christ (Ps M Rule); Ballajura Baptist; Bassendean Church of Christ (Ps P Spence); Bedford Baptist; Beachway Vineyard Christian Fellowship (Ps R Mason); Beechboro Baptist; Beechboro Westminster Presbyterian (Ps C White); Belmont Catholic Parish (Fr E McGrath, Fr P McATamney); Boyup Brook Baptist Church; Brookton Christian Fellowship (L Johnson); Broome Baptist; Bullsbrook Catholic Parish (Fr P Fox); Bunbury Baptist Church; Busselton Baptist; Bytord Baptist, Canning Vale Catholic Parish (Fr R Carrillo); Cardup Christian Community Church (J & M Pendlebury); Carlisle Christian Centre; Carnavon Baptist; Catholic Chaplain to Edith Cowan University (Fr D Watt); Charis Fellowship Bassendean; Charismatic Life Centre (Ps R Piestrzeniewicz); Charismatic Worship Service (H Limanta); Christian Outreath Centre Dunsborough/Busselton (Ps P & H McInnes); Christian Reformed Churches of WA; Church of Christ Mandurah (A Edwards); Church of Perth (PS D Drew); Churchlands Christian Fellowship; City International Church; Clarkson Catholic Parish (Fr P Perreau); Claremont Baptist; Coastal Christian Church (Ps G Bassett); Collie Baptist; Como Baptist Church (Dr M Edwards, Ps P Smoker, P K Monger); Concerned Christians of Attadale; Coodanup Anglican Church Mandurah (A Harrison); Coolbellup Charismatic Baptist Church (Ps G Louwen); Cottesloe/Swanboume Catholic Parishes (Monsignor P McCrann): Craigie Baptist; Cranbrook Anglican Parish; Cranbrook/Frankland Baptist Church; Dalkeith Baptist; Dalwallinu Baptist; Derby Baptist; Duncraig Christian Fellowship; Eaton Baptist; Eden Hill Family Church; Ellenbrook Baptist Church; Endeavour Christian Gathering (Ps L Randall); Ephraim Ministries (P Booth); Evangel Christian Fellowship; Evangel Church (V Nainby); Foothills Baptist; Foothills Christian Community Centre (Rev R Holmes); Forrestfield Community Church (R McAllister); Franciscans of the Immaculate Catholic Friary, Toodyay (Fr R Magee Fl, Fr E Mills Fl); Freedom Christian Centre (Ps J Wallis); Fremantle Christian Centre (Ps P Meyer); Full Gospel Assembly Perth (Ps D Ho); Fusion Australia (WA) (A Braun); Geraldton Baptist; Girrawheen Assembly of God (Ps I Parker); Girrawheen Baptist church; Glory City Australia (Rev. J Viforj; Gnowangerup Baptist Church (L E Davies); Good News Family Church (Ps G Hewett); Gosnells Baptist Church (Rev. M Gabrielson); Greenhead Christian Fellowship; Growing Families Australia (B Grosser); Halls Head Baptist; Highway Church Foursquare Gospel (Ps C Vermeulen); Hills Christian Faith Centre (Ps R Dix); Hills Christian Fellowship Mundaring (Ps P Kerr); Holy Spirit Church (Father T Phelan); Indonesian Christian Church Inc (Rev I Kosasih); International Full Gospel Fellowship Perth; J & S Rees; Karrinyup Anglican Church (D Chamberlain); Katanning Baptist; Katanning Foursquare Church; Katanning Wesleyan Methodist Church (Rev J Taylor); Karrinyup Catholic Parish (Fr B Quadros); Kingsley Baptist Church (Ps R Costley); King’s Way Baptist; Knights of the Southern Cross (N Ward); Lake Joondalup Baptist ; Lakes Christian Life Centre (Ps N Smith); Lakelands Christian Centre; Lakeside Baptist Church (Ps P Bryant); Lesmurdie Baptist; Life Ministries (Dr D Randall); Lighthouse Christian Church (Ps S Griffiths); Lighthouse Christian Fellowship - Geraldton Uniting Church (G Thompson); Living Way Christian Church (Ps P Michel E & Rev M Fewson) ; Logos Family Church ; Lynwood Christian Church (Ps G Malthouse); Maddington Christian Assembly (Ps A Lear); Maida Vale Baptist; Mandurah Baptist; Maylands Baptist Church (Ps C Lansdown); Morley Baptist; Mosman Baptist; Mosman Park Catholic Parish (Monsignor J O’Shea); Most Reverend Barry Hickey Catholic Archbishop of Perth; Mount Pleasant Baptist; Narrogin Baptist; New Life Christian Community (W & J Hollett); New Life Chirstian Christian Fellowship (C.C.A.) (Ps A Shepherd); New Life Community Centre (K McKay & A Schaper); Nollamara Church of Christ (B Griggs); North Beach “True Vine” AOG (P Rose). North Beach Baptist; North City Christian Centre; North Coast Community Church (B Lewin); Northam/Toodyay Catholic Parishes (Fr S Casey); Open Faces Christian Ministry Pinjarra (Ps I Sheridan); Oyster Harbour Baptist; Part of the Church in Perth (D Boan); Perth Christian Life Centre (D Storer); Perth Chinese Christian Church (Rev Poh Ham Lim); Pingelly Baptist Church (J M Mallaby); Pinjarra Alliance (I Cullen ); Presbyterian Church In Western Australia; Protecting Young People (M Shave, Rep); Rev. C Prichard; River of Life Australia; Rockingham Baptist Church (S Galambosi, P Gordon, D Bond); Roleystone Community Church (J Spencer); Saint Lawrence Catholic Church; Sanctuary Christian Fellowship (J Tayler); Scarborough Baptist,. Scarborough Church of Christ (Ps L Sutton); Shepherd King; Sonrsie Christian life Centre; Sorrento Anglican Church (Rev. A Beel); Sound City Church; South Perth Baptist; South Perth Catholic Parish (Fr M Casey); South Perth Church of Christ; Southside Christian Centre (Ps M Keating); Southcoast Christian Fellowship (Ps D Becsi); Southern River Christian Church; Spencer Street Seniors Bunbury; St Albans Anglican Church Highgate; St Cecilia’s Catholic Church (Fr W McNamara); St John’s Catholic Pro-Cathedral (Fr M Rowe); St Mary’s Catholic Cathedral (Fr P Meo, Fr D Harris); St Mark’s Uniting Church Leeming; Still Waters Full Gospel Fellowship Fremantle (Ps L Shave); Summerlakes Christian Church (R Walton); Sunset Coast Christian Life Centre; Swan City Church (D & K Hewitt); Tambellup Church of Christ (R Broun); The Miracle Centre (Ps S Marshall); The Village Christian Fellowship (J Stapleton); Thornlie Church of Christ (Rev R Furlong); Toodyay Baptist Church (A Vallance); Valley Church of Christ (Rev K Duffy); Victory Life Centre (Rev Dr. M Court); Victory Life International; Wagin Baptist; Warwick Church of Christ; Warwick Wanneroo Baptist; Wanneroo Catholic Parish (Fr P Boyle OSM, Fr C Marchetti OSM); Waratah Christian Community Baptist; Wembley Downs Baptist Church; Westsminster Presbyterian Church (Presbytery of Perth); Westminster Presbyterian Church in Kingsley (Rev C Markham); Whitfords Church of Christ (Ps M Wilson); Woodvale Baptist Church (C Lituri); World Missions Church Ltd (C Ledbury); Yangebup Baptist Church (Q Clark); York Catholic Parish (Fr S Cooney); Yokine Baptist Church (B Muhlhan); Youth For Christ WA (D Bonanno); Youth Alive WA ; Youth With A Mission (P Brownhill).”

    Here’s one account of the rally blogged by ‘Andrew’ (who describes his former Revenue church as ‘one of the more extreme Protestant churches’)

    http://interlogue.wordpress.com/2001/11/08/nice-sterile-letter-for-consumption-of-the-masses/

    A witness to the rally noted that many of the Christians at the rally were ‘yelling the most hateful and horrible things about gay people’.

    Yes, this in Perth.

    It doesn’t go on at polite services on Sunday, but if you give these pharisee ferals an opportunity to voice their homophobic rants, they’ll go for it, and won’t hold back.

    Thankfully they’re not given that opportunity all that often, because their pastors don’t give enough of a shit about the gay issue to make it an issue.

    Sometimes the indifference of pastors to gay people can work for you, as well as against you.