roadtosurfdom on homosexuality
One of my favorite Australian political blogs is roadtosurfdom. Today he tackles the issue of homosexuality and in particular the condemnation of the Church towards homosexuals and other related issues such as gay marriage. Go and check the whole post out.
Tim Dunlop quotes Senator Andrew Bartlett:
As a politician, I expect people to sometimes strongly disagree with things I say or do. For example, I did a posting on this site a few months back giving some examples of the type of antagonistic comments that can happen when I speak in support of refugees, (although this issue provokes a much less heated response than it did a few years ago).
However, nothing ever matches the ugly, hate-saturated comments I often get on issues related to homosexuality and same sex relationships. What makes these all the more unfortunate is that they almost always purport to present a Christian perspective, occasionally selectively quoting a bit of the Old Testament to reinforce the ‘correctness’ of their view.
Tim then concludes with this paragraph and it should make us all as Christians reflect on our way of dealing with this issue. As our behavior towards this issue is also a missional one.
To shortcircuit some of the criticism I’ll probably get for this, let me say that if you are a Christian and are not mindlessly prejudiced against gay people, then clearly the criticism here doesn’t apply to you or anyone else like you, so there is no need to be offended. But it is worth thinking about the fact that such tolerance and open-mindedness on the subject arises from arguments outside Christian teaching.
The most well-known and visible leader of a Christian Church, the Catholic Pope said this -
Homosexual marriages are part of a new ideology of evil that is insidiously threatening society”–and is it any wonder that some Christians feel not only justified in condemning homosexuals but actually obligated to find it wrong, or even “vile” and its anagram “evil”?
So, what do we do? How do we change the framework from evil to love?
April 4th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
Luke, we aren’t Israelites.
think about what Israel was supposed to be and why the Law was given to them in the first place.
This is no longer the case.
People no longer can come to God through The Jew’s relationship. Sorry christians are the true Jews so it stays the same but people can ONLY have a relationship with GOD through Jesus
April 4th, 2005 at 1:45 pm
But why does one change and not the other> Why does the act reamin but the punishment differ?
Stop throwing around red herrings and answer the question.
April 4th, 2005 at 2:05 pm
Luke, that answer was not a red herring it goes to the heart of the difference between O/T and N/T.
go back to Abraham and the three promises God gave him.
We are not the Nation of Israelites /Jews.
They had to be holy and to be seen that way. Why do you think God punishes them?
April 4th, 2005 at 2:39 pm
Call me stupid, but….
“Sorry christians are the true Jews so it stays the same”
and
“We are not the Nation of Israelites /Jews.”
Can you please articulate your position - are Christian people in the position of the Jews or not?
April 4th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
“Lance,
Unfortunately again you are incorrect.
Look at the KJV and then look at the NKJV, NASB or even the ESV.”
Homer, I don’t care how the KJV..the NKJV, the NASB ..the ESV or the Botswana Dick-Floggers Version Bible translate Paul’s writings. I’m only interested in getting to the bottom of what Paul actually wrote. (I’m more interested in what Jesus said and did…but I still think it’s worth finding out exactly what Paul meant….rather than what some people 400 years ago thought he meant)
Numerous bibles have now been shown to have some very basic translation errors…I’m surprised you’re not concerned about this..and prefer to stick with the errors than with the original texts.
Will the Homer Paxtons of 2000 years from now regard Bob Hawke as the ‘Working Prime Minister’ of the time…..in their translation of ‘Labor Prime Minister’..and scold anybody who dares disagree with his belief that ‘Working Prime Minister’ is the ‘obvious’ meaning?
April 4th, 2005 at 5:51 pm
Well go ahead Lance show how those translations are wrong in their method.
I have shown that the trnslations which use formal equivalence actually agree on this topic.
you disagree.
Bully for you. go and write yourself a translation however ALL formal equivalence translations side with me.
Sorry Luke.
Technically only christians are Jews because only we share at this stage the fiath Abraham had.
True Jews follow Jesus however this is/was differnt to what we were talking about.
My mistake in bringing it up.
April 4th, 2005 at 6:00 pm
Ok - so, Christian people ARE in the position of the Jews then.
As such, could you now explain how the act’s decription as sinful stands but the punishment doesn’t?
April 4th, 2005 at 6:15 pm
So how are you going to explain to the little kid who’s just lost Fido that under formal equivalence…doggies don’t go to Heaven?
Rev 22:15 “For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. ”
So using formal equivalence….how do you explain this statement by Mark Latham… “The Prime Minister is an arse-licker’…and how do we write it so that it makes sense to people in 2000 years?
What’s showing up now Homer..is how intellectually and spiritually lazy you are…as well as being deceitful..a gossip..and proud and haughty.
Not that of course you would ever admit any SPECIFIC sins……and support your original assertion that you believe you are a ’sinner’…who as a ‘daily chore’…repents ‘every day’.
If you haven’t noticed Homer…no-one here believes your nonsense any more.
And sooner or later..the church in Australia ..will wake up to the fact that many of its Christian ‘leaders’…like Fred Nile…George Pell….Peter Jensen…Margaret Court…and Brian Houston…..live the same deceptive sinful lifestyle…and deceive the masses that they are ‘moral’.
April 4th, 2005 at 6:16 pm
No mate,
We are not a nation that is supposed to lead people to God.
That was one of the main aims of the law. The othermajor aim was to show them how holy God is.
The punishment in the O/T is therefore for the O/T.
April 4th, 2005 at 6:34 pm
And Homer…it DOESN’T MATTER whether a bunch of translators in the past few hundred years have agreed on a method of formal equivalence……
It doesn’t matter.
ALL that matters…is correctly translating what Jesus and Paul and others said and wrote. That’s all that’s important.
It would be like me ..as a journalist…reporting on the death of the Pope…while trying to remain faithful to the interpretation of his death given by the BBC…or ..CNN ….or Kochy and Mel on Sunrise ..
Whether they’ve all agreed on a method of interpreting the Pope’s death doesn’t matter….it’s the original event and its true meaning that is all that’s significant.
April 4th, 2005 at 7:06 pm
So the church is not to lead people to God then?
April 4th, 2005 at 9:09 pm
Luke, the Church is not a nation.
Walter Kaiser wrote a good book called towards an O/T theology. Very readable.
It will give an good insight into the O/T and its happenings.
Lance,
give it away and then perhaps go and find our what formal equivalnce means.
April 4th, 2005 at 10:24 pm
“Lance,
give it away and then perhaps go and find our what formal equivalnce means.”
I beg your pardon?
I double-checked exactly what it meant before my last post.
What do YOU mean exactly Homer by ‘give it away’?
April 5th, 2005 at 12:01 pm
Then if you did Lance your comment may even less sense.
April 5th, 2005 at 6:04 pm
“Then if you did Lance your comment may even less sense.”
Help me out here Homer, I can’t follow your Pharisee code.