if mike was writing the Bible…
Rev Mike on a new marketing strategy… perhaps a bit of rewriting of the text too.
We’d have a little more truth in advertising, to wit, John 3:17 would be revised to read, “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world; that’s the church’s job, and we kind of resent…
May 12th, 2005 at 8:46 am
Anthony , you may think it is loving for someone to go around being profoundly ignorant.
I don’t and I attempt to show him via the bible what is the correct view.
You may think it is loving for someone to parade views which are contrary to the bible.
I don’t. I show via the bible why they are wrong and how they are dangerous.
This is what happens both in the gospels and the other books of the N/T.
Why in heaven’s name do you think Jesus criticesed the pharisees? Was he being proud and haughty?
Nigel, yet again you have provided no evidence for your acccusation.
Punt up old son.
Lance believes , quite contrary to the early chapters of John, that the pharisees loved the law. Did they?
If they didn’t say so otherwise you have no understanding of 1Tim3 or 1 Titus.
Steve, See if the early chapters of John are in agrreement with your view.
The major problem with people on this blogsite ,as was shown on Lance’s heretical view on unrepentance, is that the world view is so enamoured it overwhelmed what god it saying to you in the bible.
May 12th, 2005 at 10:47 am
You’re quite free here Homer to demonstrate repentence by repenting of your haughty attitude and your pride..and arrogance…but you’re not repentent..which is my point….
Repentence is a word you toss around which has no direct meaning in your life.
How many months ago now was it that I asked which SPECIFIC sins that you repent of?
May 12th, 2005 at 8:04 pm
I do believe it is worthwhile to love people who are being ‘profoundly ignorant’ Homer; whether it be me or someone else. I believe that it is only love of the genuine kind that will help people experience the Kingdom of God and know they have experienced such. This is what Jesus continously did with his disciples. They were ignorant and in John’s gospel, it is not until the 16th chapter that they say “We understand what you (Jesus) are saying.”
Would you mind indicating in John’s gospel were Jesus ever denigrated those who are ‘profoundly ignorant’, specifically the disciples?
And please, do not ever attempt to compare yourself to the ways of Jesus, if not Jesus himself. I am not swayed by such large and grandiose statements.
Homer, I do believe that in loving people that a genuine respect for them and what they believe is fundamental. This does not mean that I agree with all that they say, in much the same way that people will not agree with all that I say. But there is a love that is of the law and a love that is of the heart; I hope to love with the latter - even though loving by law is much easier and feels ‘more right’.
May 12th, 2005 at 9:08 pm
The problem for me is twofold.
Like nigel you are short on specifics.
you do not realise the short distance between profound ignorance and heresy.
This has happened and probably produced the longest thread in this blog’s history.
It happened because people such as yourself do not seem to think people who do not understand and moreover obviously do not wish to understand the bible should be encouraged to realise their understanding is poor.
There have been a plethora of times Lance has shown a distinct lack of any understanding of what he is talking about.
The Law is the obvious area for one.
Yet it is only I who has attempted to put him on the straight and narrow.
do not forget that in the heat of the heresy controversy you were hell bent on rejecting the word of God.
Indeed it only cooled down when I told Phil that in essence he was saying he would have rejected Paul’s authority if he were part of the corinthinian church.
And this was on the vastly uncontroversial topic of not allowing unrepentant sinners to be at church.
When Jesus rejected Satan’s temptations he did so because he understood the Scriptures, dare I say the law.
I would have thought people should have reflected on that long tread and said to themselves how could have I been so tempted to reflect such worldly values and Rejecting God’s at the same time on such a issue which is so black and white.
The reason I fear is that people don’t take the reading of god’s word seriously and therefore don’t listen to God as intently as they should.
That in essence is the problem.
What did Jesus call the Pharisees? Was that loving? did he not show to them their error?
May 13th, 2005 at 3:36 am
Whoa. Nice thread, folks. Always good to know that we Yanks can stir up the pot halfway around the world anytime we want. :S
May 13th, 2005 at 5:17 pm
This is what results when Homer’s approach to gay people in the church is applied.
http://www.holdingtheman.com/2004/04/touching-heaven-changing-little.htm
May 13th, 2005 at 6:55 pm
Homer,
I direct you to your own words. You don’t seem to recognise this as the evidence you seek. Perhaps, as I suggested earlier, you could let me know what you recognise as an insult so I could relate it in a more hlepful way for you.
I’m interested in why you keep demonstrating a need to argue that you are right.
May 14th, 2005 at 9:00 pm
Nigel, I find it hard to talk to someone who doesn’t know what an insult is particularly given you have accused me of that.
I will merely say one more time.
It is not love to let a person to coninue to live in wilful ignorance. I must admit I find it perplexing but will continue to assist his education in the same areas. On this there is no biblical guidance.
I am not surprised however that a person who continues in ignorance finally goes over the line into heresy.
If I were you I would meditate on on why you were hoodwinked into approving a heresy. Not a big one but an important one nevertheless. Little ones lead to bigger ones.
I am not always right Nigel and not always on this blog however I am interested in why you continue the need to avoid the point.
May 16th, 2005 at 8:40 am
Homer, . . . .
I’ve gotta say I struggle with this type of conversation. Apparently that is obvious to you as I seem to have let go of some major issues which you believe I need to deal with. Correcting people, ignoring and rejecting the word of God and not standing up for anything. Homer, I told you what I stand for and what I believe. I am truly sorry that my thoughts and beliefs do not sit well within your understanding.
I have spoken of loving God, neighbour and self and what this means for me, and applying a biblical, and thus, I would hope, spiritual, understanding of these things. It would seem this is not enough.
I am not as well versed in Scripture as you appear to be. There are obviously some flaws in my thinking and living.
May 16th, 2005 at 10:02 am
Anthony,
go back in this thread to where the criticism of me originally starts.
john Welsey would tell people about the Law until they recognised they were ‘poor in the spirit’.
He would then proceed to tell them about grace.
Only a love of the law leads to understanding grace.
We are condemmned by the law. Why? Because we break it every day.
The law is holy yet it condemns us because we are sinful before we are even born.
You are essentially saying do not tell anyone about this and when they don’t understand don’t explain it.
Why is love coupled with hope and faith?
May 16th, 2005 at 11:20 am
Homer,
I feel misunderstood. I have explained more than once why I invited you to give an example of you being insulting (or you being insulted). I don’t feel you have acknowledged this. Even if you do not want to give such an example or disagree with me, do you know why I am asking this?
May 16th, 2005 at 11:35 am
Nigel,
I did actually acknowledge it by saying it wasn’t up to me to make examples as I hadn’t made the accusation.
It is always on the person who accuses to show the evidence.
nigel,
I am just a poor pleb in Sydney so I don’ try to understand motives of people.
I merely comment when people make a statement on the bible that appears to be implausible and then explain why.
May 16th, 2005 at 1:52 pm
“Only a love of the law leads to understanding grace.”
Garbage.
Those who love the law….try to find salvation through the law.
Prostitutes, in Jesus’ time, did not love the law, but appreciated grace the most.
“‘Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven–for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.’ Then Jesus said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’” - Luke 7:47-48
—-
“….john Welsey would tell people about the Law until they recognised they were ‘poor in the spirit’.
What about people who are already ‘poor in spirit’. It is your job Homer to make them poorer in spirit?
This is the end result of that approach from the church.
http://www.holdingtheman.com/2004/07/he-never-really-died-because-he-never.htm
Homer, maybe it’s about time you stopped following John Wesley..and started following Jesus Christ.
May 16th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
Homer,
You have acknowledge that I did ask you for an example of an insult; I have heard that you do not want to give such an example; and you have begun to explain why you do not want to — all of which is ok by me.
What I haven’t seen you demonstrate is that you heard ‘why’ I asked you for an example. I had a specific reason for asking for such an example. Did you notice what it was?
May 16th, 2005 at 5:00 pm
nigel, I thought I made it plain I didn’t.
Lance, you fail to understand what the law means. We are all sinners. Why ? because we brake the law! We always break the law. it is only when people recognise that they can understand Grace. Which is why Jesus talks about blessed are the poor in spirit.
People who are already poor inspirit already understand the implications of the law as is seen in the bible.
prostitiute, tax collector etal.
Lance just trying doing something.
find one example of someone who loves the law who believes it leads to salvation.
READ what jesus say’s about the pharisees’ in the early chapters of john,
does he say they love the law or does he say in fact the opposite!
May 17th, 2005 at 4:18 am
Well….in the first chapters of John….Jesus doesn’t say anything about the Pharisees’ love of the law or otherwise…(you’re being obscure again Homer)
But..this is said of them “For if you do not believe that I AM, 12 you will die in your sins.”
He doesn’t say…..”for if you do not follow the law…then you will die in your sins”.
It’s all about faith in Christ as the determination of salvation.
Now Homer, while John Wesley is your butt-buddy…..Rowland Croucher is my butt-buddy (don’t tell Jan).
Yes, I know he’s not important Homer because YOU haven’t heard of him…but he has an interesting summation on this.
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13113.htm
“We are all sinners. Why ? because we brake (sic) the law! We always break the law. it is only when people recognise that they can understand Grace.”
So Homie…..what’s a SPECIFIC example of you breaking the law?
May 17th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
Lance try:
5:38..42 or the real killer 45-47, 7:19 8:15.17-18..33.39-40..44.55
There is also john’s implicit showing that they pharisee’s etal did not love the law as just who recognised the signs?
If they love the law so much how can they catch a woman in the act of adultery but miss te man?
Look at Galatians 3:24 for showing the relationship between the law and faith.
romans 2:12..14 shows that it is holy.
finally have a real good think of how anyone could ‘love’ the law yet believe it leads to salvation when we were sinners before we were born?
May 17th, 2005 at 6:15 pm
I’ve finally twigged to how you think Homer.
I find it very difficult to discuss this with you .because you believe one thing in theory….and believe the opposite in practice.
Have you ever thought through the practical implications of what you believe (grace)…or alternatively..the theoretical implications of what you practice (the law)?
You talk about the theory of grace…but the reality is ..you love the law Homer. You get shitty whenever anyone dares to question the law…and its rigid enforcement…..particularly as you perceive it applies to gay people.
This is why no-one likes you Homer. You’re a hypocrite….along with the other Pharisees running the church in Australia.
May 17th, 2005 at 8:03 pm
Congratulations Lance, even when it is in black and white you still can’t bring yourself to believe what is said.
That is why you are the pharisee! Ironic.
May 17th, 2005 at 10:46 pm
I’m the pharisee….because I believe we’re all as sinful as each other..and can only be made right with God through faith in Christ’s atoning blood sacrifice..and not through the law…and because I don’t believe in salvation through a rigid adherance to what is in ‘black and white’….but through a sovereign act of God’s undeserved grace and mercy.
Ummmm…..ok…
Anyway….something I’ve wondered Homer…how do you breathe with your head up your bottom?
Lance.
Australia’s first gay Pharisee (well…all the Pharisees were men….hmmmmmm)
May 19th, 2005 at 2:36 pm
I go back to your original comment on this thread Homer.
“I am reminded of What john Wesley’s strategy.
He would preach on the Law for some time until people realised that they had no hope under present conditions.
He would then introduce Jesus and how he saves.”
My issue with you..and the Sydney Anglicans…and the George Pells..and the Focus on the Families…and the other Pharisees of this world is they never get to the “He would then introduce Jesus and how he saves”.
When have you ever heard Fred Nile talk about that publicly?
When have you ever heard George Pell talk about that publicly?
When have you ever heard Focus on the Family talk about that publicly?
When have you ever heard Peter Jensen talk about that publicly?
When have you ever heard Homer Paxton talk about that publicly.
When do you hear ANY pastor in ANY church in Australia…link the concept of gay people with Jesus’ salvation? No, of course not….it’s all about the law…and grinding people into the spiritual dirt…until they’re left with no option but to leave the church.
This is what I despise about you Homer. You’re rampant and unrepented hypocrisy about this.
May 19th, 2005 at 2:40 pm
And congratulations to the Reitan family.
http://www.soulforce.org/televangelists/dobson/2005action/video.shtml