Well, I am not a liberal
Well, given all the debate about inerrancy, doctrine and belief going on in the comments of this post, I think it is great that I can just answer an internet quiz and find out straight away if I am a liberal:
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You scored as Emergent/Postmodern. You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don’t think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
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What's your theological worldview?
created with QuizFarm.com
It is probably a reflection of this typing that I found it extremely difficult to answer some of the questions because I wanted to deconstruct some of the terminology.
June 23rd, 2005 at 6:27 pm
it was my immature snigger I was describing….
…we could call it Heterosexuals Or Minors Engaged in wRongdoing….?
June 23rd, 2005 at 7:17 pm
Lance, regarding Homer’s comment - for some reason it was caught in the moderation queue by our anti-spam software (which shouldn’t happen to people who are already approved to comment here). We try to clear the queue 4 or 5 times a day, but sometimes there is a delay in comments being approved.
June 23rd, 2005 at 7:20 pm
some conversative are very forgiving some have a much harder time with it
June 23rd, 2005 at 7:28 pm
On a side note, it is always funny to hear you refer to sex as bonking-yah it is used in the states as such but at least where i am from it means to hit someone on the head as in two children fighting and one hits the other and she cries he bonged me in the head and the mother no bonking (hitting) your sister now. So it sometimes just sounds weird.
June 23rd, 2005 at 7:30 pm
…we could call it Heterosexuals Or Minors Engaged in wRongdoing….?
that is the new name for youth delilency
June 23rd, 2005 at 7:32 pm
hey bonking court with judge Judy -a hit reality show
(oh what I think we already have that. )
June 23rd, 2005 at 7:42 pm
Dan,
As an outsider to The Church i do have to point out that rather a lot more emphasis is put on the sins of the body than on sloth, gossip etc….I wouldnt even know that they were an issue if it weren’t for the Magnum Icecreams or Movies such as Se7en(and that shows you just how naive i am). I guess what i am getting at is that The Church seems to put a hell of a lot of emphasis on degrading sex, the most natural of urges, something that our form was created for by God, as stated, in a round about way, in the link that Lance posted earlier - http://homepage.mac.com/howthedevil/.Music/themarriageunion.mp3
As i stated earlier, i am born and bred an athiest, and i have had very little experience with religion….but even so the idea of sex is still taboo, and i still feel dirty when i engage in sexual acts…its a feeling that is very, very deep under the skin, and barely noticable…but its still there. I dont believe that i should feel this way when engaging in something that is an inherrant instinct…or that i should be punished for following these inherrant instincts.
June 23rd, 2005 at 8:00 pm
As an aside, I am aware that it is only sex before marriage that is considered sinful within The Church, but my issue is this: a)What if you never find the right person to marry? b) isnt it possible that a person may become so desperate to fulfill thier sexual urges that they will jump into a marriage too quickly, and/or with the wrong person, resulting in dissillusion of the marriage, or in the outcome of the person(s) being miserable for the remainder of thier natural life?
June 23rd, 2005 at 9:41 pm
“On a side note, it is always funny to hear you refer to sex as bonking-yah it is used in the states as such but at least where i am from it means to hit someone on the head”
It’s ok, we’re rooting for you ABJ.
June 23rd, 2005 at 10:10 pm
well for those who can’t wait any more and are burning, the apostle paul says get married because it is better to be married then to burn-
Two, Sins against the body are often thought to be worse because they are against Christ and yourself. All sins are bad before God, but the bible singles out sex because it is so important.
! cor 6.
Flee Sexual Immorality
12″All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13″Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”–and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16Or do you not know that he who is joined[d] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin[e] a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. They are trying to rein in a culture and a people who sexual lives are out of control and reeking destruction on society with fights, fatherless and motherless children, and disease. Movies are not the best place to get your theology but it is not all bad. Christianity thinks that sex is very beautiful and valuable, but sometimes forget to say that when dealing with all the sin they see…
June 23rd, 2005 at 10:52 pm
Thanx ABJ….although, i have had a child out of wedlock and he is niether fatherless nor motherless. And i personally believe that my child is better off, in this particular situation (i agree with the church that children are much better off in a stable two parent family setting, but unfortunately some situations, a lot of situations, are not that happy), with myself and the father not being together. My choice was made based on the greater good. sure, i could have stayed with the father (and no one knows better than I how hard i tried to make it work)and married him, but this particular person had little to no respect for women and after the birth of our child he became violent towards me. So, would it have been better for me to marry him and risk the life of my child and myself and to suffer a lifetime of torment for the sake of living without sin (yes, i know that I had already committed a sin); or to get away from him and raise my child in a caring, nurturing environment where he would not have to witness the evil deeds of his father and hence learn evil habits for himself, and also keep him safe from harm, but risk an eternity in the pits of Hell for my sin. I feel that the life of my son is much greater than what may or may not occur when i die. And i also feel that taking my son out of that situation and educating him as best i can as to why i did what i did and how such situations are wrong he will become a much greater man than his father and hopefully function in society a lot better than his dad does. But, as i say, he is not fatherless, i encourage the two of them to spend as much time with each other as i can, as i do believe that a child needs a positive male influence in thier life (and despite his shortcomings as a partner, my son’s father is a very good parent).
And what of those people who rush to get married for the sake of relief only to find themselves in a marriage that is not emtionally, spiritually, sexually, etc etc satisfying? are they to live out the rest of thier natural lives in misery? Possibly leading to Adultery? I would rather live my life now and be happy while i have a chance, than be miserable for my time here on earth. what if i t comes to my time and there is nothing? i would have lived a mundane and miserable life for what? (sorry, thats the athiest in me coming out). And I may be wrong here, but isnt divorce a sin as well? So that can hardly be an option for these poor fools. An unhappy life in return for 5 minutes of pleasure…..damned if you do….damned if you dont
Please correct me if i have misinterpreted what little i have heard
June 24th, 2005 at 12:46 am
Forgive the long post. Wade through if you are brave.
First, I disagree that all sins are equal. They are equal in one respect: Whether I tell a lie or murder a child I am separated from God because of my sin - equal, therefore, in that if I break one part of the law, I am guilty of breaking the entire law (union with God). Beyond that, sins are not equal. I mean, do you really think that God would be ambivalent about whether you killed a toddler or told a lie? Both reveal your brokenness, but it’s absurd to think both sins are equal. Will Hitler be punished the same as every other unrepentant sinner? If so, that’s not justice. One instance of murder is a worse sin than one instance of coveting your neighbor’s new pool, surely.
Russell was brilliant, but he did not understand Christianity. (Like many of our brothers and sisters in Christiandom.) Virtue, in God’s eyes, does not exist outside of faith. The Scriptures say that all our righteous deeds are like dirty rags and that without faith no one can please God.
Also, like ABJ said, sexual sin is dangerous because it is sin against your own body. God created you a certain way and when you abuse that creation then you are engaging in self-destructive behavior. Sex outside of marriage does a number on you emotionally and spiritually - sometimes physically. You feel dirty or guilty not primarily because you have always heard the church say it is dirty, but because God made you in his image and somewhere in your heart you understand that. You know it’s wrong and it’s good that you know it’s wrong.
Let me make something equally clear: Sexual sin, no sin, is the end of the road. Christ told a woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He gives second chances. And when you use up your second chance, he forgives and gives another. He is full of grace. But he is full of truth as well. So in his grace, he forgives you; and in his truth he tells you to turn away from your sin.
Forgiveness is something we have to come to Christ daily for, because we saints are sinners too. We have been made holy in Christ, but we still bear in our selves embedded sin and struggle with that sin every day. Obviously, I am a sinful person. I should be better, but I am not. But even though I do not always live like Christ, I can tell you that he is full of grace and that in him I can find forgiveness. You can find forgiveness.
Christians tend to point the finger at others’ sin. And that is, perhaps, the worst sin of all: Pride. And every one of us struggles with it. I struggle with it. Homer struggles with it. Lance struggles with it. Lexia struggles with it. Russell struggled with it. Pride is that crap beneath and within every other sin in our lives.
Briefly, about marriage: Marriage is awesome. Difficult, but awesome. I have been married 13 years and I have four kids. It is the hardest thing in the world, and the best. Marriage was instituted by God and is foundational for a stable society. Unfortunately, we evangelicals divorce as much or more than other people. Kind of pathetic, huh? Not very good lamps for dark places. Marriage is not something you ought to rush into. Neither is sex. If you love someone and are mutually committed to one another and share common faith, then marriage is difficult. I can’t imagine how difficult it is without those things. But marriage is also good. And sex is good inside of marriage. But marriage was not created for sex. I value the companionship in my relationship with my wife more than the sex. She’s my best friend and as our friendship grows, a nice byproduct is the sex gets better. But it’s not about the sex. It’s about the relationship. And it’s sacred.
Now how all of this applies to our legal system, I have no earthly idea. Dan (and many, many others) is better qualified than me to make those judgments.
I hope some of this, any of this, made sense. I get a little confused when I write more than 200 words.
June 24th, 2005 at 1:43 am
Scott,
I thank tou for your words of wisdom. And yes, it did all make sense, to me anyway (and i am not the brightest spark in the fire, so the fact that i understood it all says a lot)Even as a devoutly non-religious person what u say rings true. I was stuggling a bit with the “all sins are equal” bit so it was good to hear that there is another soul out there who finds that statement a little unjust.
As for your stand on marriage i wholeheartedly agree. Marriage is a sacred thing, even to the non-believer. If I ever get married I hope with all my heart I have as stable and rewarding a marriage as my father and his wife, and, by the sounds of things, yours and your wife. What saddens me is the number of couples I see, most of whom are good friends and family, people i love, who have entered into a marriage for all the wrong reasons and are now so dreadfully unhappy with that decision.
But anywho, you are right that this has nothing to do with the legal system, i threw it in because i have been reading some of Russell’s work recently and wanted a different view on the subjects he has written about. i feel that eduction on both ends of the stick will help me not to be biased and naive on these subjects. Lack of knowledge of a subject can create fear of a subject. And fear begets hatred, hatred begets violence etc.etc.
June 24th, 2005 at 2:48 am
I have been contemplating the subject of sex before marriage and the sins tied up in it and i have realised; Christians who take this sin seriously are few and far between.I know quite a few Christian, Catholic, etc.etc. persons…in fact nearly all of the people i know, barr my immediate family, are religiously inclined in some denomination, many of them devoutly so. I dont know even one of them who has not indulged in this particular sin. And for the most part they have indulged in it far more often than myself. A couple of which, as in the case of my best friend and the father of my son, have done so an inconcievable number of times….even for me to comprehend! How many of you can claim innocence in this matter? (rhetorical question)
June 24th, 2005 at 3:51 am
I may by the grace of God and My friend Brian can…..although you are right that some christians today are more sexually leniant in their lives as well as other areas….
June 24th, 2005 at 4:08 am
My sense is …there is a popular but false American ‘gospel’ creeping into this discussion.
The false ‘gospel’ that through God’s grace ..one can ‘overcome sin’.
Whenever I ask ‘Christians’ who advance this ‘gospel’ whether they have ‘overcome sin’, the answer is a uniform and resounding “no”.
Yet they continue to present to others the phony but popular belief that one’s salvation is acquired by ‘overcoming sin’ through grace.
While overcoming sin through grace is a good thing, it is not the standard of salvation, and those setting that false standard should be ashamed of themselves.
It is the false ‘gospel’ of ‘change to be saved’ which only serves to tie down people with heavy burdens. You make a mockery of the free gift of salvation to ’sinners’ who wish to enter through the narrow gate of Christ.
NOT ONCE, have I ever seen a churchgoer say to a gay person…’you are saved by faith in Christ alone….through your faith in His undeserved sacrificial atonement for your sin on the cross’.
Watching this discussion is starting to remind me of all the reasons why I left church.
I cannot climb over the high hurdle you have set before me and others like me to jump.
So I will not run your rigged race.
June 24th, 2005 at 4:36 am
Salvation is not acquired by ‘overcoming sin’ through grace, Lance. Never has been. You are right, it is not the standard of salvation. Salvation is a gift. But Lance, if you are a believer, then you need to turn away from sin. That’s not ‘churchianity.’ That’s Christ. Jesus didn’t tell the pharisees to leave the poor woman caught in adultery alone and that she was fine just the way she was. He told them that they were all sinners, all adulterers, and when they left he told the woman to leave her sin.
God is still holy, Lance. God expects us to be holy. God knows that we are not. And God forgives. But we cannot embrace sin. To embrace what God has called sin is the height of pride. Wouldn’t you agree?
I’m not trying to drive you away. I’m welcoming you. But don’t call what is evil, holy. And don’t call what is holy, evil.
I am a bigger sinner than you are, Lance. I’m older (I think) and I’ve done worse things than you (I’m sure). But my holy life is not what saves me. I’m not saying it is. However, through the grace of God, I need to continue rejecting sin. Not in others, mind you, in myself.
June 24th, 2005 at 5:09 am
But this is the difference Scott.
In the rigged race that is church, ‘rejecting sin’ is not enough for a gay person or other ’sexual sinner’, they must ‘overcome sin’….while the churchgoer requiring others to ‘overcome sin’…does not have to ‘overcome sin’ in their own lives.
The other false ‘gospel’ is that if you overcome ’serious’ sin..you are saved..but if you don’t overcome ’serious’ sin..then you are not.
The double standards of church and Christians are not singular and one-dimensional…but complex, multi-layered, multi-sided contradictory belief systems….which don’t become apparent until you get stuck inside the church trap.
For example, ‘bait and switch’ is a popular multi-layered church trap, where you are baited with grace..and then once you’re in the ‘club’ ..the switch takes place, and it turns from ‘grace’ to ‘law’. (tithing, justification through ‘overcoming sin’, performance worship, etc.)
Now what’s starting to piss me off, and always pisses me off whenever this is discussed is the either/or paradigm on which Christians operate. “If you’re not fighting against sin, you’re ‘for’ sin….or you’re ‘embracing’ sin”
Someone else (who is straight) who I know is following this conversation said this to me in an email…and I don’t think they’ll mind me sharing this….
“you know a couple of times I have tried talking to Christians about homosexuality, and I am amazed at how quickly people can become so impassioned over this. People seem to think I have lost the plot if I am advocating tolerance to gay people!!”
You’ve GOT to ..as Christians…start getting beyond this simplistic two-dimensional thinking of yours.
You’ve got to start cutting some people some slack…..giving people a break …..whatever you want to call it….so the grace from Jesus actually has some small opportunity to establish itself in the life of a believer.
You’ve got to open the window and let a bit of fresh air into the pressure cooker.
And it IS a pressure cooker when you’re gay….particularly in Christian circles.
Your strong need to either control or excommunicate gay people is literally killing them.
I know, I was very nearly one of your statistics.
And I’m not playing your rigged game anymore, even though you don’t like that.
June 24th, 2005 at 5:24 am
I guess I just don’t understand, Lance. I have to reject lust in my heart as well. That I struggle with it, doesn’t make me an excommunicant any more than your struggle with homosexuality makes you an excommunicant.
I don’t mind your being gay in my church, and God offers his grace freely. But I feel like you’re the one that wants to run the race rigged. To proudly be commit homosexual sin and to lap up God’s grace? Why don’t I start cheating on my wife and “embrace” that sin and lap up God’s grace and get angry when believers confront me about it? What’s the difference?
I don’t expect you to receive Christ and the next day be him. It’s a journey. It’s a long journey.
Am I missing something? I don’t wish you any harm whatsoever, Lance. I just truly don’t understand where you’re coming from.
June 24th, 2005 at 5:38 am
“To proudly be commit homosexual sin and to lap up God’s grace?”
What’s the fucking matter with you Scott?
Can’t you read?
“Now what’s starting to piss me off, and always pisses me off whenever this is discussed is the either/or paradigm on which Christians operate. If you’re not fighting against sin, you’re ‘for’ sin .or you’re ‘embracing’ sin”
Scott, talk to me when you’re prepared to read what someone else is actually saying.
June 24th, 2005 at 5:39 am
Scott, tell me who is ‘proudly’ commiting homosexual sin here. Who? Tell me?
Fucking jerk.
June 24th, 2005 at 6:00 am
I am a sinner, Lance. I am not trying to condemn you. And sometimes I am a fucking jerk. Ask my wife. I apologize that I have come across that way to you. I didn’t mean to. I am sorry for that comment about you ‘proudly’ committing homosexual sin.
I am a sinner, Lance. I am not trying to judge you for your sin; I don’t even know you. Don’t judge me for mine. I am only trying to understand from what you’re writing.
What I am saying is that we all sin and we are all in need of God’s grace. That’s not rigged. I struggle with my sin every day and I will until I see Christ. You will too. If you’ve received Christ, we’re no different. What is so messed up with that?
June 24th, 2005 at 6:14 am
There is a double standard in our churches. You have to reject sin in your life, just as I have to reject sin in my life. We’ll have times of victory and times of failure. I don’t expect you to become straight any more than I expect myself to become a eunuch.
June 24th, 2005 at 7:06 am
I do, however, expect more kindness and grace from you, Lance. I’ve seen you vilify sin in others as much as you hate that they vilify it in you. I made a mistake in what I wrote. I apologized. You need to show more grace. And I say that as a brother, not an enemy.
June 24th, 2005 at 9:29 am
Lexia,
you have to be very discerning when you are to be married.
It is not something you do lightly because it is a lifetime thing.
Jesus said divorce was only created for our sinful condition and even then could only happen if adultery occurred.
I concur with Scott on Marriage yet it is very hard.
Lance,
you might find this surprising but I would welcome you into my church.
The only people who we are told not to associate with are those who do not believe they atre committing sinful acts.
This applies equally to homo and heterosexuals.
You can only have sex in marriage.
As far as I can make out you agree with this.
Try reading dreadnought Lance. I do think you will get a lot out of it.
June 24th, 2005 at 10:37 am
Well there’s a catch 22 for u….. “You can only have sex in marriage” ….and we come back to homosexual marriage not being recognised by The Church or Law….once again…damned if you do…damned if you dont…..
June 24th, 2005 at 11:15 am
Lexia,
i don’t want to walk down this track again.
why don’t you try dreadnought as well.
He is gay and catholic and his recent article is on gay marriage.
June 24th, 2005 at 11:56 am
I think that the issues we are talking about of sin and brokenness are difficult ones and clouded because we hear echoes of what the church has told us (and others) over the years. I would feel uncomfortable with Lexia feeling that she has to justify her position to the church in the decisions she has made regarding her child. That is the opposite of what I understand the role of the church to be.
The truth is that we should be striving to accept and love all people and show grace to them. However, we often collectively fall short of this standard.
I am upset with Lexia’s observations that sexual purity has not been the standard amongst christian people she knows. I am more upset with what I see as the tendency to try and pretend this isn’t happening rather than dealing with it in an open way. I think that the church sometimes has preferred to be complicit in assisting members to conceal their actions rather than deal with it in an open way.
For example, if Lance (and I hope he doesn’t mind me using him as an example) were to become a part of a church community (it’s a hypothetical), I imagine that he would be able to connect pretty well with the community so long as he didn’t mention that he is attracted to boys. And, even if they suspected that he was, I imagine many churches would be happy to go along with the charade. I think that this is heartbreaking and a complete distortion of the gospel.
June 24th, 2005 at 11:57 am
Homer,
I hav to wonder if Adultery is the only plausible reason for divorce. What of domestic violence? (And I use the term loosly as these days domestic violence covers more than just physical asbuse) what if the other partner is a peadophile, or is abusing children physically, emotionally or mentally, and the couples children are in harms way? Is there recourse for these victims?
June 24th, 2005 at 12:02 pm
Lexia, add to this what if the couple simply cannot sustain a relationship? What if one of them doesn’t want to try anymore? What if one won’t acknowledge that there is anything wrong and the other is desperately unhappy for years and years? I don’t think that these are God’s ideas of marriage. I believe that God has an ideal but shows grace and forgiveness when we fall short of the ideal (as we so often do).