Hillsong on ABC’s Australian Story
Garth gives a heads up to something that might be worth a watch – Hillsong on ABC’s Australian Story
In the Australian today…An ABC TV Australian story will air next Monday night figuring Brian and Bobby Houston pastors from Hillsong. It promises to be an insight into their lives, their home and their church.
March 8th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Steve - My name is R ichard - you can continue to call me Lionfish.
March 8th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Thanks Lionfish, but I meant more your background. Your church, your theology, etc
March 8th, 2006 at 11:43 am
Steve
A) “I beleive in accounting for the historical context, and the Holy Spirit really shouldn’t be revealing radical and contradictary new truth”
So do you agree that Allan Meyer, BH, EG White, David Moses ALL are or could be in error?
March 8th, 2006 at 11:47 am
To Lionfish,
Certainly. I could be too. As could you. As could Phillip Jensen. Or your minister. Or the rev. No one’s got a monopoly on truth, bar Big Man Himself. Even Rick Joyner admits he’s not always right (that’s a little joke).
March 8th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Steve don’t you mean Big “non gender specific” creator and giver of life?.
See my post in Goshdarn women
March 8th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Which is why you need more than just one man and his Bible…hehe…(sorry, couldn’t resist).
March 8th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Greg,
Non-gender specific? Jesus called him Father, ‘abba’, not ‘my gender neutral parental figure’. I agree God transcends gender, but to take specific angst at Him being referred to in the masculine is not, to my mind, a worthwhile pursuit…
March 8th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Steve
You are right. I could be wrong.
The difference is between us and these “teachers” - who have special extra-biblical revelations from God will claim that they are NOT wrong when their suspect position is challenged!
They will not even consider an alternate position. When they are challenged in a situation that can be ‘contained’ they will quickly show you the door - or refuse to speak with you…If they are backed in a corner and proved demonstratbly that they are in error in the public arena they will ’spin the truth’ or they will quickly withdraw any written evidence of heresy (eg. a book or blog comments).
Now is cultish behaviour in my book!
March 8th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
To Lionfish,
I got nothing for that except to shrug somewhat. It’s the nature of the beast. Two visions is division. Anyone in an organisation needs to believe in the core values of the organisation or the organisation will be undermined. its the prerogative of leaders to show people the door if they feel such people will undermine their work. hillsong has never claimed a monopoly on truth. if you disagree with them, its fine by them, you can still be saved, be a Christian, thats fine by them, but you’ll never be a leader in their organisation. Seems rather logical to me.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
Steve,
it seems logical - yes. Agree with us, fall into line, don’t challenge us, fall into line - or leave. No middle ground. No healthy challenging.
this is particularly dangerous as we are talking about ‘new revelations’ and doctrinal errors that have a major impact on people’s psyche’s, finances, spiritual well being and behaviours that contradict orthodox teaching.
Be passive and shrug it off if you may. But if you don’t take a stand for Truth - for the benefit of sel-preservation or the greater good of the organisation…how can you really say that you are following Christ?
“I am the way, the TRUTH and the life’. ‘The Truth will set you free”.
These guys are obviusoly putting their empires and their work above their people and Truth! Anyone who undermines their work (in the interest of Truth) will be sshown the door…and you say that is their perogaitive?
How much more evidence do we need to demonstrate that cult behaviour?
March 8th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Steve
I sort of agree with what you said about following the vision etc. and if people dont like it to go elsewhere.
Why then do some ex hillsongers get upset or even worse have felt abused by the system?
Is it possible that 99% of the time they agree and if in 1% they disagree
they get pressured.
Is Hillsong a church or a business - if its a church do the leadership operate more under business ideals than the fruit of the spirit.
What happened to the fruit of kindness etc.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
but is there a place for healthy desent? And do the leaders take seriously the concerns of others theologically?
the rev
March 8th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Man, I am sure that some church ministers I know would love it if people who disagreed with them would leave the church and never be involved in any sort of leadership in their church!
March 8th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
I believe that everyone should be allowed to agree with me.
the rev
March 8th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
I’m pretty wound up today…by this bizarre denial of the seriousness of Brian Houston punching a teeanger in the face.
It was 1997 when I was hit in the head by a worship leader at Churchlands in a fit of rage…….something which sent my mind and life into a spiral from which I’ve never recovered…completely changing my personality…and making me into the deeply angry person you see today. (for those of you who constantly ask.. ‘why is Lance always so angry?’)
The result of the assault that my homosexual orientation intensified exponentially…..and I lost all interest in life, in music, in work, in church, in the footy, and especially in (non-cute-guy) people.
After being a keen Christian, and an even keener social butterfly, I now struggle to leave the house, and only do so when I absolutely have to…for work purposes and the like.
The reaction of church people to my change in life and personality has been a shrug of the shoulders…….’oh well’……and the standard blaming of me for ‘acting the victim’..
But there’s nothing I’d like better than for life to be the way it used to be…and for me able to think the way I used to. For some reason, I can’t access that way of thinking anymore…and it’s frustrating.
The reaction (or lack thereof) to Brian Houston punching a teenager in the face, brings it all back for me today.
It’s another demonstration that the emerging church is absolutely completely and utterly no different in attitude to the traditional or contemporary church.
When the people who claim to be part of the emerging church, stop just tinkering around at the edges, and really start questioning some of the assumptions they’ve made about life and church…..then I’ll take it seriously.
Or maybe the way to deal with all this problem with the contemporary churches and their cultish mentality…is just wander up to Brian Houston or Phil Baker and punch them in the face.
Would any Christian care if I walked down to Victoria Park now, and punched Phil Baker in the face, to deal with my frustrations (dear Phil’s lawyers - this is not a veiled threat against Phil Baker, it is a hypothetical argument about the acceptability of violence in the church)
March 8th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Steve,
One of the things in retrospect that I found frustrating about Hillsong is that for the average member there really wasn’t any forum to discuss theology or give input into what was being preached from the pulpit . It really wasn’t even a matter of disagreeing with the leadership - it was more that the opportunity to give feedback seemed pretty limited .
I remember being really frustrated one night at a youth service where somebody got enlightened enough to invite a complete stranger to come and talk about contraception and how to avoid AIDS . Unfortunately the night quickly degenerated because some people wanted to interrogate this guest speaker about her views on homosexuality . I remember thinking that the leadership could have used that night as an opportunity to discuss some of the issues involved . I can’t remember that ever happening and what did come across to me was that some of the youth group were incredibly homophobic . Maybe it was discussed at a leadership level but I remember how that night still disturbs me many years later .
If you want to know which sermon affected me the whole time I was there . It was two sermons by John Smith . Unfortunately he upset the powers that be at a Hillsong conference and was never invited back . What does that say ? There has to be some way for the organisation to be self reflective .
March 8th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
I think we’ve got it nailed. As far as I’m concerned, this ‘my way or the highway’ attitude from the leadership can be very destructive, and i won’t spend much energy defending it beyond what i’ve already stated (that is, the idea that the leaders do have the capacity to choose leaders that fir their ethos).
I won’t go any further defending it because I am not personally convinced that the current system is wholesome or healthy. I too have seen it hurt people, and as I have alluded to on several occassions, it has hurt me too. I think Hillsong has created a cap for itself until it learns how to maturely deal with these criticisms, for at the present I do not think they are doing this at an ideal level.
Again, for my personal position, I am not satisfied with high emphasis on material wealth, and I am inspired by the position the Rev has described. Suffering for Jesus and giving sacrificially really is, I believe, what He wants.
I cannot defend Hillsong when it violates these ideals for I lack the heart to argue for what I do not believe in.
Having stated these things, I still love Hillsong, and am proud of the many things the church has done and the great men and women who have helped build it.
Lance, ascribing to you the full blame of a victim mentality is a dangerous half truth. I would recommend that you seek healing, i think it’s very sad that you’ve had such bad experiences with church. I really pray that the love of God will touch you.
God bless you all, it has been great pleasure discussing these thigns with you. May you all grow in the true, glorious riches of truly knowing Him.
March 8th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Steve…
Does that mean that you are still going to get answers to my questions or not?
it will be sad to see you go.
March 8th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
I thing he’s saying goodbye
March 8th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Maybe he got a ‘gentle call’…from the Church.
March 8th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
“…1 He looked up, and saw the rich people who were putting their gifts into the treasury. He saw a certain poor widow casting in two small brass coins.
The Master said, “Did you see how pathetic that was. Two small coins! That woman is completely useless to the kingdom with her piddling two coins!
Then he turned to his disciples and said; “and the reason she’s poor is because she thinks poor, she has a poverty mentality”. “I can hear her now”, he continued, “Poor me, I haven’t got anything, I’m never going to have anything”. Her bad attitude keeps her poor and therefore useless to God’s work. As you all know we need a lot of money, as much as we can get and people like her contribute nothing.”
Then Peter suggested; “Lord, shall I go and throw her out of the congregation?”
“No”, the master replied. “we will teach her how to be rich, to think big, to breath success, to have a winning attitude and enjoy life with all it’s riches. If only she wasn’t so rebellious against the truth she could live in the finest suburb of Jerusalem, ride in the finest chariot adorned with gold and have a raft of slaves to cater to her every desire but she chooses to be poor and make poor choices for herself”
Then the disciples said; “Master, teach us how to be wealthy and comfortable….”
March 8th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Steve, thanks for your contribution. Good luck to you.
March 8th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Steve, you’ve been a breath of fresh air. thank you so much for the gracious way you listened without reaction or anger. Hillsong is the richer, in the truest sense, for having you in their team.
March 8th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Hey guys,
that wasn’t really a goodbye note…more a wrapping up conclusion, Imjust can’t afford to be on the internet all the time…I’ve got too much money to make! (that’s a joke)
No, I didn’t get a gentle call from the church, Brian just punched me in the face. I was going to press charges but then I realised he only did it for my own good, and I think we should all get punched by Brian once in a while.
Lionfish, Friday is the soonest I’ll have a chance to pop into the church to ask about the books. What were the things you were after?
Ok, and by the way, I declare this a Hillsong meeting because we have used the words ‘church’, ‘kingdom’, ‘mentality’, ‘prosperity’ and ‘riches’ in closely themed paragraphs. Therefore I’ll need to collect a love offering for Hillsong Inc. Please make out all checks to Hillsong Church, or you can put in a special request for credit card facilities. Let me gently remind you that what you sow, you also shall reap, so if you don’t give, you won’t get anything from us..I mean God. This is a love offering on top of your tithes, so tithes will go in the next offering in twenty minutes time. Between now and then, we’re going to have a distinguished speaker give a motivational talk that has vague Biblical overtones, and even refers to a verse in the Bible on two occassions….
(These are my normal jokes when i’m around conservative evangelicals. Some of my more humorous friends get into the spirit of things and start demanding stricter hermeneutics, and describe staunchly the need for stricter obedience to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Bible. Ahh, good times.)
March 8th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Thank you Geoff,
Again, for what it is worth, I respect you very much, and I look forward to meeting you in His presence at the end of all things.
May God bless you deeply!
March 8th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Btw, I apologise if I offended anyone with my above joking. I actually felt a bit of a conscience pang for putting it up. God’s church is a beautiful, even if we are flawed, and I do not wish to disrespect it.
Love and peace to you all.
March 8th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
…’conscience’…
I’d watch it Steve, introducing dangerous new concepts like that at Hillsong.
March 8th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Steve,
i am glad you have not gone away!.
1) Copies of the the Financials + LMI financials
2) The Procurement card list (as per above)
3) An official HS statement on the discrepancy on BH’s media statements (as per above).
4) A signed copy of “You Need More Money” by BH
Thanks mate.
March 8th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
“I apologise if I offended anyone with my above joking.”
Actually you triggered flash backs for me…….
March 8th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
btw Lance…
Conscience is actually a favourite topic of Robert Ferguson, our key preacher/teacher…who as far as I’m aware, has never preached a ‘prosperity’ message…