Hillsong on ABC’s Australian Story
Garth gives a heads up to something that might be worth a watch – Hillsong on ABC’s Australian Story
In the Australian today…An ABC TV Australian story will air next Monday night figuring Brian and Bobby Houston pastors from Hillsong. It promises to be an insight into their lives, their home and their church.
March 18th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
“I was at HS conference in 2004. Joyce Meyer was a key note speaker. It cost her $74,000 to fly her private jet to Aust. On top of that Hillsong payed a large figure that not only covered the transport costs, but also payed her wages.”
I’ve done some digging ….and I’ve discovered an organisation that can actually fly large numbers of people between the United States and Australia at a much lower cost, thus negating the need for putting the hard word on congregations to give.
It’s called ‘QANTAS’.
This ‘need’ for private jets is just total bullshit.
Hucksters like Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Copeland, argue that they need private jets (plural) because if God tells them to go somewhere in a hurry and preach, then they need the convenience of their own jet.
Who are they trying to kid?
There are commercial flights connecting to all international destinations multiple times each day.
What this is all about…is ‘God’s (self-) anointed’ don’t like lining up with the plebs at airports.
March 18th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Lance,
Although I wouldn’t suggest that by itself it is a good enough reason, but another factor that would perhaps influence these people to have their own jets is the ’stalker’ factor.
Brian Housten can’t go shopping in the Hills District without getting mobbed, and that mostly by supporters. I imagine it would be worse in the States for these big time preachers.
March 18th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Brian Houston can’t go shopping in the Hills District without getting mobbed, and that mostly by supporters.
The cult of celebrity is a real worry and I think it is harmful for both those who attend the church and the ministers involved .
I am not sure how you go about stopping this sort of behaviour - any ideas .
March 18th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
It is just unbelievable to consider that a conference such as Hillsong, even when running at a loss, has the ability to even contemplate paying someone well in excess of $100K to travel to and speak at a conference. And that is just one out of multiple speakers!! The whole conference and this megachurch mentality seems to operate at a completey different level - it is hard to believe that this organisation and the 20 person local anglican church profess to be following the same teacher.
March 18th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Assuming these figures are correct its a rather sad example of the cultural cringe at work .
March 18th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
I’ve seen examples (not live) of both Brian Houston (from hillsongtv.com) and Joyce Meyer (early morning TV). I don’t understand why people bother to give these people the time of day. Banality, even if delivered with confidence and a dazzling array of lights and sounds, is still banality - shallow and boring to boot.
Why are Lionfish and others trying to rescue the great masses of shallow-thinking fools that listen to these people? When you’ve done that are you going to save the blockheads that gamble away their money at casinos and poker machine outlets?
March 18th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
“What this is all about…is ‘God’s (self-) anointed’ don’t like lining up with the plebs at airports.”
I remember watching Kenneth Copeland years ago and that was precisely the reason he gave for having the need for a private jet. He compared public air travel to the atmosphere of a pub, and it would be hard for him to be in the ‘annointing’ whilst in that sort of atmosphere, so he needs a private jet to keep his annointing. I mean he is only thinking of the general public who attend his meetings, I mean you wouldn’t want him rocking up to Victory Life Church and not being pumped full of annointing. Usually these sort of statements are backed up with a line about God not being short of cash.
March 18th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
$100K+ to speak at a Hillsong Conferenace…
ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS. No wonder the Senior pastors will not meet with us and answer our questions!
I know there are families who are addicted to this prosperity doctrine and will spend a heap of $$$ to fly/stay/eat/attend a HS conference. They take one week of their holidays - put the kids in the daycare/kids conference and go see joyce, kenneth and co. speak the “ungospel” message of prosperity to them for a hansome reward.
People, you are just beginning to see the picture of the “unjustifiable amounts of money” that exchange hands on the pentecostal speaking circuit - while the Leaders lie to them on a number of fronts ranging from Tithing to Pastors remmuneration.
People, spend you money on educating your kids, spending family time with your kids or giving to the genuine needy. These conferences don’t really ‘bless you’ - they take away and steal from you.
Pastors - I have no idea how you people stand by in your silence. Some of you are profiting from your flock.
You can no longer afford to sit on the fence and say nothing.
Eekial 34: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2034&version=65
March 18th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
But don’t congregations usually support their pastors to some extent? What is the cutoff point for a cleric’s salary - $60,000 or $100,000 or $250,000 or $20 million?
If a pastor was preaching and practising “correct” theology (according to Lionfish, at least), would it be ok if that pastor was earning say $250,000 per year?
March 18th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Kieren,
You youself put it so well recently…”in an upside down Kingdom…”.
March 19th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Not everyone has that theological understanding, Lionfish. For those who don’t, why can’t they earn $20 million per year?
The problem is not the pastors taking advantage of the naive flock, it’s the members of the flock who have a misaligned moral compass.
Using the gambling analogy, you seem to take the side of Tim Costello and put more responsibility on the casino operators. I’m reminding you that the individual gamblers have moral responsibility for their own action. No-one is forcing the congregation to part with cash at the point of a gun.
March 19th, 2006 at 9:39 am
Kieren,
You are right in so many ways. The WOF is the most deceptive of all cults that I have encountered.
It is trinitarian, the Leaders are charismatic, makes people, particularly the wealthy ‘feel good’ (tickles their ears), it adapts to the current environment - yet it very subtly turns the Gospel on its head.
Unfortunately its a case of ‘Buyer Beware’ in the spiritual market place.
Personal beliefs are difficult, if not impossible to legislate.
People, themselves need to be like the Bereans and study the scriptures and compare it with ‘the real thing’.
March 19th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Tell me, when Phil and Dan’s income reaches the million dollar mark, will you start attacking their theology?
March 19th, 2006 at 10:35 am
Songwriters royalties, which are called “mechanical royalties” are approx 7.5% , The publisher;s share is then deducted from this. Depending on the publisher it is anywhere between 25%-50%. In this case Hillsongs is the publisher, the artist, the producer, the wholesaler and, at the conference, the retailer. Let’s say they have a very generous publishing agreement with their songwriters, based purely on adminstration fees only at 15%. The songwriters recieve 6%. Afer recouping production and manufacturing costs, Hillsong Music receives 96% of retail. Tax free. This is unprecedented in the music industry. U2, The Rolling Stones, would have a challenge receiving half of that. In fact their share would be closer to 25%, and even that would be exceedingly high for induxtry standards, and of course, it would be taxable and subject to GST.
March 19th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Keiren it is very difficult to fight against the subtle yet very powerful tricks used by casinos etc to suck the money ut of gamblers - it is also very hard to fight the suibtle yet powerful tricks (call it annointed preaching if you will) of people like Brian H and Phil P et al. Group think is a very powerful aspect to all of this as well - several thousand people all together being happy and opeing their wallets - it swoul dbe hard to resist joinign in.
Paulmade tents to pay his way as he travelled - what can’t Brian get a job as a plumber (Rhetorical question folks - doesn’t require an answer)
March 19th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Kieren,
Rest assured if Phil and Dans theology start getting dodgy I will launch a counter-strike.
If they were independently wealthy due to an inheritence or some other windfall that would be none of my concern.
If they were making $1M, then I would be asking how does a Minister make a super normal income stream from their ministry activities?.
>If they were fully open and honest (ie. transparent and accountable) with the public and the parishioners and not leveraginig benefits at tax-payers expense then it would be up their congreagations to decide whether to support them at that level of salary or not. The Ministers we have been talking about on this Blog are not open and transparent.
>If they were evasive, and used dodgy theology as well as spin and rhetoric and spiritually abused and misled people - treating Church as a Business then i would be investigating them also.
My view (as posted on Matt glover.com) for remmunerating leaders of large churches is as follows:
“I would agree that in some circumstances that skilled, high calibre people are required to lead large Churches. I believe these people have to be well remunerated (honoured). Biblically speaking, St Paul gave some guidelines – ‘worthy of double honour’.
I may be wrong, but I would take that to mean twice the average rate of pay…if the average man’s wage is say $60K, then I do not see a problem with a high calibre Pastor making twice that – straight salary. I know that many good Pastors in Churches make much less.
Personally, I have a good solid work history, three degrees, completing my Masters, and have been selected to lead a Programme worth $10M+ over the next three years. I’m on the equivalent of “double honour”. I am content with that…as I was on a lower salary. For me its not about the money.
There are some in the corporate sphere and churches alike whose salaries represent a form of ‘gluttony’. I was inspired recently by a documentary on the Ship Building industry on South Korea. This has largely taken the economy from rice paddies to heavy industry in the space of one generation.
Interestingly, whilst most western countries might think that they are competitive due to “cheap labour” that was not the case. The Ship Builder “workers” were paid the equivalent of $US70K. At the same time the CEO was paid $US150K….not the $USMillions that an equivalent CEO in Western countries may receive for equivalent positions. (Maybe its not labour that is ‘killing’ our manufacturing businesses – rather the costs of Executive remuneration).
Like highly paid CEO’s, Religious leaders who make ‘mega-bucks’ are surely at risk of being out of touch of the needs of the majority of their congregation, society and indeed humanity,
It is easy to boast about giving (say) 25% of your salary away when you may be earning $250K+ per year (especially if much of it is given to tax-effective ministries’). At this level of income you are out of touch with the needs of your people.
A Church is not a Business, and a Business is not a Church.
If I could convince our own customers that God would bless them for giving us 10% share of their wallet for the rest of their lives, if they ‘bought’ our product – I would be promoted to CEO as well. It would not be ethical, and I could not do that…in Business, nor in Church.
Pastors, like monks and nun’s etc – choose a religious life (as a vocation). To serve God and not money.
In many respects the mindset of a CEO is not the mindset of a Religious Leader.
I am think whose spiritual advice would ‘profit’ me more? To listen to an excessively remunerated motivational speaker who asks for 10% of my income and charges $100+ for a conference fee…or spend 20 minutes chatting over coffee with the Nun two doors down that spends most of her life working with refugees on a ‘fly-in, fly-out’ basis.
———————————————————————————
2 Corinthians 2:17: “Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.”
March 19th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
SPEAKING OF JET PLANES:
“When I invest in Benny Hinn Media Ministries, when I invest in this ministry sacrificially then I have the right to place a demand on that anointing and to house it in my life.”
(Paula White, “This Is Your Day,” Benny Hinn Show,” July 23, 2004)
Paula who lives sacrificially also “live in a $2.1 million, 8,000-square-foot home facing Tampa Bay. Their ministry owns a jet airplane, a Cadillac Escalade and a Mercedes-Benz sedan.” (”Popular TV preachers,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch, November 18, 2003).
So Lance and Luke - get ready to secure your Prosperity for 2006:
http://www.paulawhite.org/firstfruits/
[Note to WOF Preachers - surely you people are no better than those who sell Buddha’s to people so that they can rub his tummy for good luck!]
March 19th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
And it gets worse!:
http://www.paulawhite.org/firstfruits/Testimonies.html
March 21st, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Lionfish (and all?),
Don’t you think that your time would be better spent witnessing to those on the street than spending hours on here attacking a major influence on world wide christianity? I mean sure, the word says to look out for a brother but I have seen so many people on here that get so ticked off at other Christians and they don’t seem to care about the unsaved.
All time on the twisted doctine or those who have never seen it?
I mean have you tried visiting Hillsong in an non-attacking manor to honestly know what’s happening-in concernd for a brother rather than a Mother poking over their shoulder. I guess its impossible to thinking you can get a meeting with BH when his church is so big he can’t get to his own members. When a church is that big you have big dollars and massive responsibility. If you honetly have tried your hardest to get inside of this issue and approached the church and you have not had success. Dont waste your time on here interogating them. Pray for them and ask God to work it out. i just wanna see all be purposeful…
To Lance,
It cuts me deep to hear your story, but I honestly believe you can have that life back, God loves you like nothing else.
-For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Romans 6:23
-If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1 John 1:9
-Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2Corininthians 5:17.
To all,
Love Jesus, I am young in my faith so hav not got much to advise on i guess, I just want all of you guys to be great in your Creator. I love seeing lives changed, have seen healings, homosexual ‘turn?’ straight. Let us all just pray for Hillsong, they have the capacity to hav such and impact. I believe thay are having a great one currently but in your concerns for their ethos, lets not become modern-day Pharisees to quarrel over these issues. Lets seek compassion for all men and women, those who live their entire lives ‘hot’ (Revelation 3:15-16) for Jesus and those who don’t.
March 21st, 2006 at 11:20 pm
oh yer and I dont go to Hillsong, love their confernce and planetshakers confernce. My church is SydneyChristianOutreachCentre http://www.sydneycoc.org.au.(Pop your head in if your still looking Steven)
God Bless.
March 21st, 2006 at 11:31 pm
brum,
I spend my life reaching out to the lost. I lived for years on part time salary with a wife and two kids so I could minister full time with no pay. Just so you don’t think I sit around and complain.
But judgement starts with the house of God, and when a man writes a book, “YOU NEED MORE MONEY” and then tries to tell people that this is Jesus message, I will stand up and cry foul. When a church starts to have influence all over the world, but exhibits a selling out to the god of this age (consumerism) then I will publicly state it is incorrect. The prophets throughout the bible have warned the church when things were not right.
As to visiting Brian, I live in Melbourne, but next time I am in Sydney I’ll give him a call and see if he wants to meet with me. I guarantee he won’t punch me like he punched that teenagers though, cause he can’t be that stupid.
I think what you may not understand is the pain that this kind of message causes in those that are already victims of abuse, poverty and sickness. This message tells “the least of these” that it is their lack of faith that causes their poverty. This message tells these “least” that if they had a better relationship with Jesus and gave more money in church they would be wealthy and succesful. Well as someone who has sacrificed my whole adult life to minister to these people, I find it not only offensive, but sinful, to revictimize them by blaming them for their plight. I spoke before of my wife suffering because of this kind of bullshit, and I will do all I can to fight against it.
As to the influence they could have, I agree, if they would admit they were in grave error, repent, live humbly, be transparent, and seek to live more like Christ, they would be an amazing testimony to the greatness of God. And I hope they do, but if Tony Campolo can’t turn Brians stiff neck, it will take a miracle.
the rev
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:15 am
“when a man writes a book, “YOU NEED MORE MONEY” and then tries to tell people that this is Jesus message”… I have not read the book and I am sure poeple miss bits from it and why he says you need more money… he doesnt say this is Jesus’ message he says that God wants you to be prsperous. The rich young ruler for example. Jesus told him to give it all up, he did, but the thing was that he wasn’t doing it in God. okay so transparity with Geoff and finances? I believe that it would not be good for any church to dig up what has happend in the past. I think its sad that Geoff doesn’t get a mention but is it really needed? Will it help the church? As for finances, if we didn’t hav media, I am sure Brian would giv a rats about trying to say the ‘clear’ truth but unfortunately this becomes manipulated…
I judge a churhc by its fruits, I see Hillsong’s are plentiful. In mine and many other churches. I love to see people come into our church and be changed and I think the work that Hillsong and planetshakers have done has really helped us develop as a church and reach more people.
I know i am sounding legalistic with this but the use of course language from one who has given up their time to work in ministry makes me sad. Is this common for you and do you repent of this? I dunno I just thought some one who seems to have a pretty strong relationship with God would have strong veiws against this as i am sure you have seen where it has led people in the past. It brings me to the salt and fresh water from the same spring…
March 22nd, 2006 at 7:38 am
Brum, you are young in the faith at your own admission, so I will be easy on you. I use the language that my culture uses, there is no naughty words list in the bible, and the admonition to not speak filthy words is upon deep study of the Greek, speaking about sexual innuendo, and sexually naughty speach. I have thought much about this issue, and do not believe that the list of words you can and cannot say is anything more than legalism and religiousity. A for instance is this:
if you say, that really sucks, my mother would be offended. Because in her generation that meant something altogether different. In America you would root for your team, the word root meaning to barrack for. So words are determined by their cultural context, and are not good or bad in themselves for the most part. Their are some words that are sexual in nature that I believe are not appropriate to say, but shit is not one of them. There are also plenty of nice words that can be used to say really bad things about people.
As to where it has lead people in the past, I have lead many people to a life of discipleship and following Jesus, there are church planters and leaders in many cities in America from my ministry, and do you know not one of the people that have been involved with my ministry has backslid because of using words on the naughty list. But I have seen whole churches destroyed by gossip, and guess what? No naughty words. If you do not think these words are right to say do not say them. But I come from a denomination that wouldn’t let you be a pastor if you had a glass of wine with dinner occasionaly, I guess they are more righteous than you?
God does want you to be blessed and prosperous, in spiritual ways. In the fruits of the Spirit, in love, in perserverence. But not in material things. This teaching is nothing less than heresy. And if you are enjoying your stuff too much to give this idea a legitimate look, I feel sorry for you and all those your doctrine will hurt.
As to Hillsongs fruit, it seems like Geoff and others here are the fruit of Hillsong, broken, and discarded people that Jesus loves. The fruit of Hillsong is secrecy, not something Jesus praised too much is it. The fruit of Hillsong is bad doctrine, again not a good thing. The fruit of Hillsong the alienation of the poor. Funny the Jesus they say they follow said he came to preach the gospel to the poor.
You are deluded, wake up
the rev
March 22nd, 2006 at 1:11 pm
rev
Why is it ok to call brum deluded???
Deluded by demons, can you explain
Deluded because he doesn’t believe like you -
you are starting to sound like BH
So if I dont agree with you, am I deceived , deluded - are demons involved
March 22nd, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Ned - you like to pick don;t you - I’d watch out that the rev don;t get you in one of his crunch holds - I’ll let the rev defend his own words but I will say this to you - your words are immature and display an attitude that isobviouly a personal thing for you. You are unable to remain detached from your previous pounding by the rev on this blog - your just like the peky kid who keeps pushing and pushing until someone belts him and then he calls them a bully
March 22nd, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Brum, mate. I’m not sure we’ve read the same story about the rich young ruler. Wasn’t the point that he didn’t give his cash away?
March 22nd, 2006 at 3:57 pm
No Ned, not demons, just Brian Houston and his ilk. And it is delusion to see things in a completely black and white way. I can see that Hillsong does some good things, that they have some good people there, that there are points to their teaching that is correct, and good. I also see that the prosperity gospel is an absolute contradiction to Jesus teachings. So if you cannot see it when Jesus speaks about it over and over and over again, you have been deluded. Its not at all like other subjects, baptism, communion, even the nature of God and the trinity, all have elements of vagueness over them. But not the issue of money, Jesus is absolutley clear on it.
So if its so clear why do so few people actually follow His instructions?
Well I guess if I were you I would blame it on demons, and in a very different way I do.
There are two things at work here, a very wonderful, good feeling, and affirming community, built on entertainment and not too much responsiblilty, that makes claims that God wants you to be healthy, happy, wealthy and wise, I mean we all want to hear that. God wants you to have your cake and eat it too, just be a good boy and give as much as you can and you too will experience “prosperity” It is a message that people want to hear, how many people hope my message is true, heck I even don’t want it to be true sometimes.
Second thing, this is where the demons come in Ned, aren’t you so excited!!! woohoo demons, maybe we can cast some out later!!! When really looking at and understanding Ephesians 6 we understand that there are different kinds of spiritual battles, some are directly with demonic forces. But most described are things like power, and the spiritual wickedness in our high offices. In other words, though they may be demonically inspired at some point, we fight a very real spiritual battle against the spirit of our age. And what is that in our modern culture? Consumerism (you are what you own, and what you buy will make you happy)
Looking good (the cult of the supermodel, anti aging creams, plastic surgery)
Cheating death ( excercise, health drinks, hormone therapy, and again plastic surgery)
Experiencing life (trips around the world, skydiving, climbing a mountain)
Take a good look at the gods of this world and tell me that the prosperity gospel doesn’t tell us, see all those things the world lusts after? Well if you come to our church, and give enough, and be good boys and girls God will give you all of those things. The kingdom of God is reduced to an amusement park, and Jesus Christ becomes Jesus Claus, and we all hope we aren’t on the naughty list. The spirit of the world has subverted the church. Now this is a daily struggle against these things, but…
at the word of faith and properity doctrine churches they do not fight against the spiritual powers of this world, they accept them an call them by Christian names.
It is insidious, and it is very easily seen that this is the truth of scripture. Even a complete athiest can see it by simply reading the book. Ofcourse they aren’t filled with the Holy Spirit, who’s job apparantley is to show us that the bible didn’t actually mean what it says.
the rev
March 22nd, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Cracking post, Rev.
March 22nd, 2006 at 4:14 pm
It is surprisiong how amny peopoe actually buy into the whole ‘I can have and I shuold have it ‘cuase God wants me to have it…what father wouldn’t give his bratty demanding kid a nice new large present?’
We have seen many people post about the reverse order of the kingdom of God and yet people who are regular contributors still dont seem to get it. How can you not see that the whole idea of Jesus life and ressurrection is not about haveing lots and it is also not about ‘being blessed so i can be a blessing’. If that were the case we would see peopole who have a stack of money still living in Mt Druit (or Deer Park in Melbourne or whatever the unmployed single parent capital is down there) and giving the rest of their money to service organisations.
March 22nd, 2006 at 4:20 pm
You know the one I love:
“if I had a bigger nicer house I could be more hospitable and bless others with it”
To which I reply, “yeah, that sounds great. I have some guys here in Footscray that have some mental illness and can’t keep a job, and they aren’t very good about remembering things like filling their government forms out, they can move in tomorrow, is that okay?”
It appears they meant having dinner parties for the other blessed people from church!!!
the rev