Open thread competition
Regular commenter Luke asked today whether it would be possible to have a thread on signposts which did not devolve into a discussion of homosexuality or the inerrancy of the bible. Well, it is an interesting question.
So here is the deal - one thread. Any topic is allowed, but no discussion on homosexuality (including shadow side commentary on pride and haughtiness), and no discussion on inerrancy of the bible, the bible as word of God etc. Any commenter who breaches these guidelines in either substance or intent will be eliminated. It is my pure discretion as to whether a breach has occurred (although, being the contrary sort that I am, I may choose to allow things that amuse me) so I advise you to steer well clear of any gray area. In order to be eligible for the prize, commenters must comment at least five times in a substantive manner (that is, “me too” comments and similar will be discounted at the pure and irrational discretion of the moderators). The moderators are not eligible to win the prize but may participate on the thread.
The rules of this thread do not affect comments on any other thread, but if you forget where you are, then you are GAWN. Eliminated commenters may continue to comment, but will not be eligible for prizes.
The competition will be closed when I announce that it is over. I will not announce that the competition is over while this post remains on the front page of signposts and while at least two people remain in regular discussion on the thread. Or alternatively I will announce the competition is over when it fails spectacularly or when I get sick of it.
The winner will be determined by me at my sole discretion (although I will tolerate input from phil). The winner will be the eligible commenter who shows in this thread to be the best combination of witty, thoughtful, insightful, vulnerable, honest and any other quality I find endearing. The prizewinner or prizewinners (depending on how many people I like) will upon supplying me with a valid mailing address receive the most horrendous collection of kitsch and crap christian trinkets that I can be bothered finding. Notable possibilities include a prayer of jabez g-string or the bumper sticker which phil forced me to remove from the car after just a couple of hours which read “Warning! In the event of rapture, driver may disappear!!”
I miss that bumper sticker.
Anyway, our most commented thread has amassed 497 comments to date so that is something to aim for. Special encouragement for lurkers to make a comment to let us know who you are, where you come from and so on.
Suggested topics - the Latham diaries, global warming, compulsory voting, the NZ elections, the union movement (that one’s for you Alan), practical ideas for mainstream church people to connect with and minister to people unlike them with out being condescending, advance thoughts about the movie Serenity and just about anything you can think of.
Let the games begin!!
October 4th, 2005 at 11:55 am
Hahahaha…see what I mean about love him or hate him?!
Tim Winton is a Christian - he’s not particularly private about it (does interviews with Christian mags), but nor does he jump up and down telling everyone about it.
I think he’s brilliant. His connection of spirituality and identity with space and place is something that resonates strongly with me. I also love his turn of phrase, its sparcity and bluntness.
Luke - “Typical crap Aussie author” - what the?? Do you mean Aussie author’s are typically crap?!! David Malouf? Peter Goldsworthy (’Maestro’ is another of my favourites in terms of exploration of spirituality and place/space)? Victor Kelleher? Patricia Wrightson? (hmmmm…methinks I see a theme…I guess I was interested in spirituality even as a kid bored by the Anglican liturgy!!)
October 4th, 2005 at 1:00 pm
The only decent (actually, he is brilliant) author there os Malouf. The rest can go hang, quite frankly. Don’t know why encourage such crap writing in this country, to be honest.
Put it this way - if they weren’t Australians, would you still think they were any good?
October 4th, 2005 at 1:44 pm
Bec…”I guess I was interested in spirituality even as a kid bored by the Anglican liturgy!!)”
Sounds just like me! No wonder this blog is a magnet for weird-like minded people! (regardless of views and beliefs they hold)
October 4th, 2005 at 2:33 pm
Bec…”I guess I was interested in spirituality even as a kid bored by the Anglican liturgy!!)”
Sounds just like me! No wonder this blog is a magnet for weird-like minded people! (regardless of views and beliefs they hold)
Me too - I had the art of beginning & ending a daydream adventure, the exact length of the service down pat
October 4th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
try being a pastor’s kid….to this day I can look fascinated by a public speaker, but inside, I’ve gone to a happy place….
October 4th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
Luke - come on!!
I like lots of Malouf’s work, but I also think it can be overly esoteric wankerism.
I think Peter Goldsworthy’s ‘Maestro’ is an absolute masterpiece. It’s spectacular - incredibly poetic and evocative. I’m not a huge re-reader of books, but that’s one that I have read over and over again…it was poetry when I first read it ten years ago, and it’s still poetry. ‘Honk if you are Jesus’ is completely different, but a book that had a significant impact on me when I first read it in my teens.
As for Victor Kelleher and Patricia Wrightson - IMHO they’re classics as far as kids’ authors go. I guess it depends on what standard you’re judging them by…I wouldn’t compare Enid Blyton and Dostoyevsky.
I don’t think I’ve read a book by either Kelleher or Wrightson in more than 10 years, but I can remember the broad themes of their work better than I can many others - and I think that the impact of a book on a person says something. Kelleher and Wrightson’s explorations of Australian identity and spirituality are fantastic - and seriously, I’m quite fascinated when I look back on the stuff I was reading as a kid, and I wonder to what extent it was books like those that kept me interested in spirituality (or perhaps I liked them because I was interested in spirituality - who knows).
I remember being completely consumed by Marden’s “Tomorrow When The War Began” series (bawled my eyes out when Robyn died…and I can even remember her name).
What about Ruth Park? Graeme Base? Mem Fox? Hazel Edwards? Colin Thiele? Peter Carey? Frank Moorhouse? Thea Astley? Surely there’s at least a few there?!
October 4th, 2005 at 2:38 pm
hahaha…Luke, I said to someone the other day that my church upbringing has made me adept at looking enthralled and engaged…;)
October 4th, 2005 at 2:48 pm
Hey, I think that we all have these responses to certain authors (not just australian). I just don’t “get” Winton - I have read a couple of things of his and find him bloated and boring.
Similarly there was a big excitement factor about Margaret Atwood a while back and everyone was saying what a good writer she was, but I have never liked her work with the exception of The Handmaid’s Tale.
October 4th, 2005 at 3:01 pm
Mem Fox? Bollocks.
John Marsden - ok, granted, very good. Particularly in an area (teen fiction) which is hard to do well (Gillian b—-y Rubenstein, I’m looking at YOU).
The rest? Just can’t stomach them. Turgid, self-obsessed and very very poor characterisation. Not to mention very poor intellectual engagment.
Colin Thiele? Give it a rest. The book “Storm Boy” is complete tosh, and only is well known because of the brililantly acted film. (sorry - one of my hobbyhorses there.)
Hey, thats only a personal opinion though. Some things might strike a chord with other people, no sweat. I just can’t dig it…and I think that, like I said, no-one would pay much attention to them if they weren’t Aussies.
Can you, honestly though, tell me that Peter Carey could hold a candle to Martin Amis?
October 4th, 2005 at 3:12 pm
Wha???
Colin Thiele is a WONDERFUL kids author - wonderful!! I learnt so much from reading his books (esp. the issues faced by immigrants). I devoured his books as a kid - he was a primary source of inspiration for the backyard “adventures” my brother, my sister and I went on!
I haven’t read any of Martin Amis’ work, so I’m not qualified to say…and I’ve presently got a self-imposed book-purchasing ban on.
I actually think that John Marsden is one of the poorer writers on that list - he’s a great storyteller, but I’m not a fan of his turn of phrase.
Perhaps I wouldn’t read them if they weren’t Australian - my favourite writers are those that explore issues that I’m interested in, so obviously I like Australian authors (but I also like authors of other nationalities that explore things like spirituality, womanhood..and I can’t think of anything right now, but I’m sure there’s plenty more!) But who knows? Being a great writer isn’t about many things - it may be about being able to engage the heart and mind, it may be about the construction of a story, or the construction of sentences, phrases…sometimes it all comes together, but not often…
October 4th, 2005 at 3:13 pm
Hehehe…Dan, I like Margaret Attwood but am not a particular fan of the Handmaid’s Tale.
Good to see some controversy on this page that’s not about THAT issue!!!
October 4th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
My M-I-L gave me the Blind Assassin thinking that I would like it because it is a “women’s” book. I have read about 10 pages of it before it began to be snorish.
Never been as huge a fan of the Australian authors that you mention, but the likes of Helen Garner, Andrew McGahan, Roger McDonald are more my cup of tea. And probably because I would like them if they weren’t Australian.
October 4th, 2005 at 3:48 pm
I haven’t read the Blind Assassin - I’m a bit over Margaret Attwood.
I have attempted to read “The Red Tent” by Anita Diamant sooooo many times, and numerous women whose taste I generally admire have raved about it…what a relief then to find out that a friend of mine who’s in publishing hates it as much as I do. It’s a tedious, poorly written excuse for a book - with passages that seem to me to be soft porn more than anything else, that Christian and Jewish women don’t feel guilty about reading because it’s masquerading as Spiritual Literature.
I do like Barbara Kingsolver’s exploration of womanhood and sensuality/sexuality in ‘The Prodigal Summer’…and I read ‘The Poisonwood Bible’ at just the right time (and it was given to me by a couple who had been missionaries in the then-Congo, who told me that it was painfully close to the truth of what they saw!)
October 4th, 2005 at 3:51 pm
Just read the poisonwood bible and really enjoyed it. Wanting to pick up the new Geraldine Brooks book because Year of Wonders would have to have been my favourite book for the last couple of years, but the new one doesn’t seem as interesting to me.
In the meantime, I am in the midst of reading, well, the Latham diaries.
October 4th, 2005 at 4:02 pm
Don’t worry - I’m propbably just being an English-majoring, snobby, cultural elitist.
October 4th, 2005 at 4:47 pm
Ah Luke - not to worry, I have to deal with my mother and my sister (I, on the other hand, decided to major in far more practical things *smirk*)…but they love many of the authors I’ve listed *grin*
October 4th, 2005 at 4:48 pm
yeah baby yeah!!
this thread is now dominating the new comments bit on the page!!
woohooo!!!!
October 4th, 2005 at 5:01 pm
Dan, do I get a prize for stirring up literary controversy?
October 4th, 2005 at 5:01 pm
Dan, do I get a prize for stirring up literary controversy?
October 4th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
Luke, you get a prize for pushing the post button twice and artificially inflating the post count. Ahem, but an update for those that are paying attention - the following people have qualified for the competition - Luke, Bec, Jane, the rev. Lance has qualified but wants nothing to do with my “christian crap” (c’mon, I’ll get you a sticker which says “God even loves homosexuals”).
The comments can continue, but I am planning to head off to the christian house of pain later this week to go prize shopping, so I might (in a complete backdown from my stated policy) announce winners in a little while and perhaps start up a new open comments thread in a month or so.
October 4th, 2005 at 5:18 pm
Well now that we’ve got THAT out pof the way…
…what does everyone think about homosexuality?
October 4th, 2005 at 5:51 pm
Dan I want one of those ““Warning! In the event of rapture, driver may disappear!!” stickers!
(We got the bible as a fridge magnet as a housewarming present (it doesn’t have ALL of the bible in it, but it has MOST of it), so I don’t want that)
…this thread still has a long way to go before rivalling The Other Thread.
October 4th, 2005 at 5:56 pm
Ok - lets get this back up.
Why do we all go to the churches we do? (phil and dan - answers such as “they asked me to” and “I get paid to rock up” are not acceptable).
October 4th, 2005 at 6:07 pm
I originally became a part of my church because I walked in and I felt wanted, welcomed, embraced - and it was at a time when I felt like I was the Resident Left-wing Hippie in the other Christian communities I was a part of. I walked into this church and rather than questioning whether I was “really a Christian”, people assumed that I was and wanted to know how to nurture that.
The reason I stay is because I’ve seen and been a part of extending that embrace to others. It’s the only place I’ve ever been where there’s such diversity, and that diversity is so truly embraced. I mean, we have the raving lunatic fringe on both ends of the spectrum. We have people who simultaneously dabble in pretty much every belief system humankind has come up with, as well as those that are ultra,ultra conservative and think everyone else in the community is destined for The Other Place. We have people who are at the end of the line, who are giving institutional Christianity one last shot. We have others who are at the other end, who aren’t even sure why they’ve walked into a church, other than because they’re looking for ’something’ and they thought they might as well look there.
They come not because they agree with the theology, but because they experience community. For many it’s the only church that’ll have ‘em. It makes life interesting…it can also make it downright frustrating and exhausting, but it’s not a rare thing for me to look around the room and almost burst into tears because there’s such a hodge-podge of people that I trust that Jesus really is the only thing that could possibly bring us together.
October 4th, 2005 at 6:14 pm
Wow - I’ve qualified? Right, thinking of interesting things to say..nope…nothing forthcoming. Haven’t read any Australian authors in some time either, so can’t get into that one.
Anyway, have any of you church raised folks found that when you sit in any type of lecture / preaching situation you automatically “zone out” now as a result of what you did as a kid regularly? I think I slept through half of my degree & even now, vague out as soon as someone starts preaching.
If I don’t write notes, I get the “noddies” very quickly!
Problem is, over the past couple of years, I’d take those notes home, check the supporting verses in context - and that was generally the end of that message
October 4th, 2005 at 6:40 pm
Luke - just noticed your question:
“Why do we all go to the churches we do?”
My husband & I have been through a pretty rough time with church life over the past couple of years, and through the research we did to get through that time, have basically moved past most “institutional church”. (If any of you looked at the links I posted earlier in this thread, you’ll get an idea of where we are at)
We do keep a bit of toe-hold in at one church though, more for our kids who are in their early teens & appreciate the odd youth event.Our criterea for this church was really that it must be the antithesis of what we had been bound in for the previous 15 years: ie: 1) it had to preach straight from the Bible - in context, not motivational clap-trap with a few cut and paste proof verses (usually OT) used totally out of context.
2) It had to be a place where you could have your own opinion - and that was okay.
3) It had to have a youth group which wasn’t manipulative or controlling, but supportive & encouraging.
4) It had to be a place where the wealthy & beautiful weren’t pandered to and held up as the benchmark of a successful Christian.
5) It had to be a place where the leaders served the people - not the other way around.
6) It had to be a place where being exhorted to being “more committed” meant to Christ- not to attending more meetings.
7) It had to be a place where grief, sadness & the realities of life were acknowleged - not just swept aside as being signs of weak faith and not “living in victory”
There were more, but hopefully that gives a bit of an idea.
October 4th, 2005 at 7:27 pm
We go to the church we go to because we wanted to be with peers for the first time in fifteen years. We found people in Australia that had the same values that we did, and the same heart for the outcasts that we did. We left our country and came here to start something new.
Our church joined the red network so that we could have a relationship with others that valued small groups, community and mission. And provided a context for accountability, mutuality and resource.
the rev
October 5th, 2005 at 1:18 am
I love reading sign posts,
(good job Danni and Phil, they are a TEAM!!!!!)
I hardly ever post,
I REALLY wanted to comment on Christian Radio stations too,
Firstly not much makes me mad!!!
I am a soft hearted guy,
But churches that advertise on it make me mad,
I mean am I allowed to say Pissed off!!!
It is disgusting and the worst form of worldliness I have seen in the Christian consumer market place.
Who do they think listens to Christian Radio?
Pagans moments away from confessing their sin and waiting for a Church called
“Destiny Church” with multimedia and a totally “sick” youth and children’s program?
Or the Word of life,
I dont think so!!!
Don’t get me started,
May as well do a letter box drop, oh crap we do that too,
Even though the research tells us it does more harm than good,
Don’t get me wrong, I grew up on DC Talk, Amy, Michael, David, Leon, Lesley and Petra…
But that was a different time, place and universe I am still trying to forget,
Yes, hearing that music makes me think of a time when I was thinner and had more hair,
But really, when I hear an ad for a church, I feel like ringing up and acting in a way that would not do much for our more sensitive listeners or readers,
Get a clue
get a life FM listeners,
lets bursts these christian bubbles that trap us,
christian radio
about as useful as a chrisitian political party
Now thats a good thread!!
kimmy
October 5th, 2005 at 8:13 am
oooohhhhh Kimmy gettin down with his bad self
Good post Kim
the rev
October 5th, 2005 at 9:04 am
Kim,
That comment just reminds me about your story about going and seeing a christian rock artist in concert - was it Leon Patillo? Just made me laugh out loud at my desk.
phil and dan - answers such as “they asked me to” and “I get paid to rock up” are not acceptable
Actually I am not paid to be a part of Northern (hehe). However, I will say that when we were looking around for where we would be in ministry after our last chance, we had a lot of different irons in the fire - a lot of offers and opportunities from big eastern suburban churches in various roles, to smaller congregations who were trying something different, and our front-runner at one stage was doing a church plant with a bunch of friends.
However, Northern came up as an opportunity to try and acheive something that everyone said couldn’t be done - come into a dying and institutionally trapped church and turn it around to do something different - to connect with a whole different group of people, to genuinely be a positive force in the community rather than a neutral one, and to see where God would take us.
I love being a part of a community where I can worship in a way that nurtures and resonates with me (no sermons, jane!!) and I love little things like the fact that a group of older ladies and men from our church prepare a cheap meal for a hodge-podge of community members every week and then go to conferences about missional stuff and brag about what they do. I love the fact that our church feeds families and provides clothing and bedding and meets emergency needs, and that long-term unemployed people volunteer to help out with what they do because they think it is worthwhile. I love being a part of a church which is driven by love and acceptance of other people.