“Nobody listens to an enemy” - but as we experienced, they don’t listen to friends either – they CRUCIFY (emphasis mine) them”.

Man is that TRUE!! And then this:

“I appreciate the sentiment behind the post & I totally agree with & draw the line at questioning anyone’s heart, motives & relationship with God, HOWEVER, I find these sort of statements pop up over the net every now & then & although the intent is good, the outcome is damaging. All it does is shut down the victims of organisations who have finally found the courage to voice their hurts, to point out the wrongdoings & be free of the fear of “speaking against God’s anointed”.

To which I responded:

“I couldn’t agree more, if it were not for Signposts I would not have ‘personally’ experienced a great deal of healing. And so, in no way, would I want to hinder that for others who are simply venting, exploring and finding healing etc”!

“I was actually speaking ‘tongue-in-cheek’ with that post. My real point was that ‘I AM’ addicted to Signposts – how’s that for an admission? Does that mean I’m not healed yet”?

I apologise if my attempt at humour and sarcasm offended anyone - except those who deserve it – humour was never one of my strong suits!

Jack

“I hesitate to write these words in such a public space.

But I can’t keep it secret any longer.

I have an addiction and it’s killing me.

It started innocently enough. A few web pages here, a site or two there… And now?

I think it’s withering my soul.

Internet porn? Nah. Online gambling? Nope. AFL Football? Uh … does Ron Barassi still play for the … um … forgot now? No?

No, my addiction is more sinister still. I’m addicted to reading ‘Signposts’ anti-church stuff.

I’ve tried and tried and tried to kick it, but I always find myself right back where I started. Why can’t I leave it alone? My friends have tried to help me. “Give it up!” they tell me. “It does no good,” they say. And believe me, I know.

But for some reason, like the proverbial moth drawn to the burning heretic’s body, I just can’t stay away.

I hate the mischaracterizations, the overly-broad descriptions, the none-too-charitable critiques. But I feel compelled to read them. I cannot stop myself. And here’s what I’m beginning to believe…

Maybe this is penance.

Because in amongst all the ad hominems and the straw men, I think I perceive staring back at me … myself.

One of the best things to come out of the experience of swimming through all this bile is the thought:

“Well, I guess I NOW know how THEY feel … as I am being attacked too … and by others just like ME!”

To say that WE have been generous in our critiques of the churches and their traditions that we came from would be… uh, generous.

With the best of (and sometimes probably less-than-the-best-of) intentions we questioned much of the Church’s methodology and even its motivations.

And we often, in my opinion, even sank to questioning people’s commitment to the Gospel (or worse), suggesting instead that their real desire was for empire, not Kingdom.

I guess I should only speak for myself, so here goes.

I’m sorry. I know (some of – OK couldn’t help myself) you guys are doing what you feel God has called you to do. We are feeling the pull of the Spirit to do some things differently, but I’m sorry that as we started off on our journey, we actually had the nerve to question (some of) you in yours.

I still think that much of the church needs reform. I still think that certain approaches in doing church lead to certain consequences that may not be good for the shape and direction and health of the church in general … but through the midst of this I think I have learned that “Wounds from a friend are better than many kisses from an enemy.”

If I have something to say, especially the hard critique of cherished programs and ways of doing church, then maybe if I come as a friend, I’ll be heard, even if what I have to say hurts.

Nobody listens to an enemy”.

Apologies to Bob Hyatt - Adapted from:

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/662

Jack

I refused to accept the pamphlet both times (a quick glance made it clear it was something of a pentecostal variety being handed out by pentecostal wankers) but the second time I stayed and watched these mustard-keen evangelists in action.

I don’t know what church they were from ..but their thing was ‘tongues’…(because it’s all about the least of all gifts..isn’t it…?)

There was one long discussion (well, you know what pentes are like, a one-side monologue actually) with a passer-by who turned out to be a believer but wasn’t into tongues, and so…off they went pulling proof-texts out of Acts (and out of context) to try and prove their case.

It was interesting how the evangelists went to work on people. Starting out aggressively dazzling them with information ..and as the victim …oops.. evangelisee was stuck there looking for an escape route..the evangelist would introduce some humour into the conversation…so the victim starts to relax and feel a positive emotion of relief and a false sense of rapport…which keeps them in the evangelist’s trap for a few more minutes..before the victim invents an excuse to leave.

They were operating in the mall near London Court (a historic arcade in Perth) and as I’m discreetly seated nearby over-hearing the monologue..while pretending to be disinterestedly eating my McDonald’s.. the London Court clock was gonging.

And this verse came to mind..

“I may speak in the languages of humans and of angels. But if I don’t have love, I am a loud gong or a clashing cymbal.” (1 Cor 13:1)

So I’m listening to these loveless evangelists with their pro-tongues arguments..and …amusingly, as their banging on…..the London Court clock was gonging and drowning them out every 15 minutes.

Ummm…had to be there.

Anyhoo..

They did trap a few passers-by…but most people walked on with an irritated look on their face after refusing the thrusted pamphlet.

What the evangelists reminded me of was human spam.

Email spammers send out thousands/millions of spam emails, knowing that people hate it, but they do it because due to the sheer volume of spam messages, a small number of people are dumb enough to actually respond to the spam and buy whatever the spammer is selling.

Might not be many buyers, but it’s enough to justify the massive spamming effort.

And I think that’s how human spam evangelists operate.

They know that they annoy people, but they get enough bites ..(1 out of 20..1 out of 50…1 out of 100 …whatever…) that it justifies the number of people that they annoy along the way.

But are human spammers what the body of Christ wants as evangelists?

I don’t know, I haven’t been a part of the body of Christ for a few years, maybe it is what you all want..because it’s better than nothing.

Lance, I have to admit I am enjoying the things you are saying about business and ministry. God help me!!!

As business guy with two kids named after OT Profits (minor ones though) and a 4wd it is not “time and money-driven religion”

but rather “time EQUALS money-driven religion”.

Today’s answer comes in a blog post by one of WA’s leading wanker pastors Mark O’Brien of Warnbro Community Church.

http://www.markobrien.com.au/2006/02/breakfast_with_fred_1.html

‘Pastor’ Mark wanks on about some businessman named Fred Smith, who’s supposedly this great influence on the church and the business world…through his strategic leadership principles.

“Fred Smith, Sr. currently mentors executives and professional individuals. Zig Ziglar dedicated a recent book to him saying, ” He is the best and wisest teacher I have ever met.”

Fred’s site includes a question and answer segment.

Here’s one example.

http://www.breakfastwithfred.com/core.php?content=askfred_answer&id=24

Q:

“DEAR FRED

I was wondering how you felt about mental disorders? I am 25 and have been fighting bipolar disorder with not much progress for a few years right now. I am at risk for losing my family soon as well as already having lost all my friends. For your info Bipolar is manic-depressive disorder which is a mood disorder which alternates between the poles of depression and mania. I have tried many, many different medications as well as being hospitalized for being psychotic. I have tried being closer to God, praying, going to church and talking to my pastor. I am running out of answers on what to do or why all of this happening. What are your feelings on this?

Keith, Norwalk

FRED’S RESPONSE

Dear friend, as a businessman I have no training nor experience in psychiatry or medicine. I have had friends who suffered with similar conditions and I have seen how painful the bipolar disorder can be for you and your family. My only question would be: when you see yourself starting to move between the highs and the lows are you doing everything possible to manage the swing or are you just “letting nature take its course?” We will be praying for you.”

Before 20 years ago, there weren’t any of these books written by Christian businessmen like ….’Wisdom of Wealthy Achievers’…or ‘The power of positive thinking’ or ‘The 21 most powerful minutes in a leader’s day’ or ‘God is my CEO’.

But what’s been happening…is all the youth pastors who wannabe senior pastors read these books (because that’s what the boss is reading) and now we’ve got an army of trained ‘pastors’, who can organise their day..and can make a buck…..but haven’t got a clue about ministry..

What on earth does a Christian businessman know about ministry? Why is theirs the example to follow?

We’ve all seen Christian businessmen around the church. They contribute some money to repair the hot water system, or you have this superficial conversation with them before they round up their kids, Ishmail, Rebekah, Isaac, and Judas, and pop them in the 4WD to make the perilous journey up the freeway to their 5 year old 4 bedroom house with swimming pool.

But what do Christian businessmen know about ministry….I mean real ministry?

And what are pastors thinking, in believing that the principles of building a superficial money and time-driven business are somehow compatible with Christian ministry?

Today’s contemporary pastors in Australia have studied a different religion, and it’s certainly not Christianity.

I’ve been mystified where their mentality comes from…and now it all makes sense.

These pastors have probably never touched a commentary or a concordance in their lives.

To hell with their new time and money-driven religion.

Lance.

:-\