Organic Church
I have started to read the new book called Organic Church by Neil Cole. There will probably more to post about us I get further into the book. But, these two quotes that Neil uses struck me worthy of sharing:
Christianity has been buried inside the walls of Churches and secured with the shackles of dogmatism, Let it be liberated to come into the midst of us and teach us freedom, equality and love. — Minna Canth
For many years now I have taken to going to church less and less because I find so little there of what I hunger for. It is a sense of the presence of God that I hunger for. — Frederick Buechner.
November 15th, 2005 at 10:16 pm
homer… you are certainly not anything less than an equal son in the family of God! it’s just that we have done nothing to acheive this act of graciousness.. we have to choose to recieve it in our vulnerable nakedness, exposed for all eternity, in it’s pristine purity, to see us as we are.
isn’t that just so marvellous! you, me, lance, bec, houston, zschech, baker, pilate, herod, hitler, howard, bush, blair, luke, mark, matthew, john, saul, paul, … damn it name you best and worst.. who can we point a finger at.. without condemning ourselves.. who can we enthrone? Who is free from the damning weight of being a flawed and failed human.. excommunicated by our actions, unable to work our own redemption, unknowing, unseeing, deaf dumb and blind… but chosen to be an equal in the eyes of God! Let’s throw away our knowledge and simply celebrate being “known”.
It’s bloody unbelievable!!!!!!
November 15th, 2005 at 10:19 pm
ps: Sorry to rave… it’s simply recieving .. not acheiving!
nighty night one and all!
November 16th, 2005 at 7:53 am
Rev,
I love you too.
Also in a completely appropriate way.
November 16th, 2005 at 8:08 am
“I have twice now recently…sat through contemporary ‘Christian’ church worship services.. and haven’t walked out….even when they sang Shout to the Lord twice.”
You’re doing better than me Lance - can’t even walk in the door these days without a panic attack.
Geoff my dear friend - great rave - and so true.
November 16th, 2005 at 9:25 am
ah jane, i’m with you, the thought of singing “shout to the Lord” causes me to break into a cold sweat. too many memories!
Church? What on earth does that really mean these days? If we think it refers to the “body of Christ” then we are so blindly arrogant. The “body of Christ” is the living embodiement of all that “He is” being brutally torn apart by violent moral, religious and political expectations whilst refusing to offer anything else to his tormentors save grace, mercy, love and forgiveness. unconditionally. is this the church? No. The church wants the “body of Christ” to become the embodiement of itself. More and more it appears that the “new christianity” wants Jesus to be it’s mascot, or perhaps the absent Chairman of the Board, handing over the reigns to a new “super empowered and anointed prophetic generation” pumped up on spiritual amphetamines, standing proudly on their “word”, arrogantly informing the world of their devine providence, prosperity and favour, demanding all to abandon any hope of sprituality outside their doors. you are either “for them.. hallelujah, praise God, amen, speaking in tounges of shallow cliches.. or, as you and I well know.. they are brutally against you!”
And yet, we have this discussion that centres on whether, in essence, church attendance is the first and only significant sign of belief in the message of Jesus! Jesus dies so we could go to church….? Oh my, I am sounding so horribly cynical this morning.. if I am offending anyone, please forgive me, it’s just that I struggle to see the real worth behind all that coming and going, singing and preaching, teaching and learning, gimme, gimme, gimme more. Yes, the programmes of compassion, the charities that feed, clothe, house, accept and protect are a magnificent response to the cross… but.. our obsession with Sunday… ?
“Christian Church worship services”….? I know I’ve said it before, but it’s really hard for me to lift my hands and “Shout, dance, sing and feel prosperous” when God is kneeling at my dirty wandering feet with a bowl and a towel. Just the image of this is a painful reminder of how wrong I was in the past. I was so driven to show God “my worship” when he was trying to show me His. A God that comes to crown mankind with a love that abandons it’s power and position and kneels, in a position of humble “worship”, at the feet of broken, proud and tragically flawed humanity. it is Jesus last act for his disciples before the cross of his rejection. The last thing God, in Jesus, chooses to do before “we” lynched him, brutally bashed him and strung him up was to kneel at “our” feet. And we call our ‘church” the “body of Christ”? Next time we crucify grace with trumped up justifications and pious religious expectations perhaps we should stop, sit down, take off our shoes and look into the face of the “body of Christ”.
November 16th, 2005 at 1:12 pm
“You’re doing better than me Lance - can’t even walk in the door these days without a panic attack.
Geoff my dear friend - great rave - and so true.”
I was having panic attacks last year, when the worship started up in church.
Anything that reminded me of worship at Churchlands or Revenue Church and I literally had to leave the building, get off the church property, and walk up the street to catch my breath. Even the request from the worship leader ‘could everybody please stand’ would set off the panic attack.
I attended another two worship services in Subiaco on Sunday night, to road test where I’m at now.
In the first service, a gay and lesbian outreach service in an Anglican church, with a simple piano used, I was fine. I could sing, I could feel my heart opening up to God, there was not a problem. I knew I was accepted for who I was and I knew no pressure would be applied in the worship. It was a bit high Anglican for me..but I adjusted quickly..and did not feel intimidated, just the opposite.
After that service, I went around the corner to the Church of Christ, and the pastor was trying to get the church to sign up to a ‘covenant’ that you will do this and be this and pledge to this and tithe this in 2006.
Full-on legalism. Shit.
Then I took one look at the guitar on stage, and all the feelings came rushing back again. But this time, when the worship started, instead of running, I just sat there, and wasn’t going to be intimidated, and decided just to let it all wash over me. And after awhile I felt I was getting control of the situation, and I felt at peace with myself and God, even though I wasn’t at peace with the church.
So, I can only suggest from own experience that the panic attacks eventually can teach you what type of church environment really does suit you… and once you’ve nailed that down………set your own boundaries for what is appropriate for people to do and say into your life in the church.
Church worship teams and many pastors don’t seem to be very good at knowing what are appropriate boundaries in a church setting. So set those boundaries for them. Then you start to feel an inkling of control over the panic again…
But it’s taken me a few years to get to this point, and I now know that the ONLY way I can feel truly at peace in church, is if the church has a specific and definitive welcome for gay people. If it doesn’t…I don’t cope, and I now know that, and accept that reality and know to work within that reality. That rules out attendance at just about every church…but so be it….my mental health and spiritual well-being is more important than satiating some pastor’s or worship team’s ego.
“The church wants the “body of Christ” to become the embodiement of itself. More and more it appears that the “new christianity” wants Jesus to be it’s mascot, or perhaps the absent Chairman of the Board……”
Could not agree with Geoff more, that the church is trying to create people in its own image, rather than the image of Jesus.
And I think the ‘panic’ is partly from someone else trying to steal your own mind and beliefs and attitudes, and have you become a mindless robot…standing and sitting on command like a Golden Retriever. It’s literally de-humanising.
Of course that creates panic.
P.S. Phil…I’ve finally started work on the promised ‘new church law’…the summation of the beliefs and practices and requirements of the church and the Christian life in 2005….and how it has superceded the gospel.
Needed a couple of church visits to get the writing juices flowing.
November 16th, 2005 at 2:27 pm
Some interesting observations about church life and I admit
there is alot of truth in what has been said.
The common complaint is the lack of grace and mercy in the current church system.
Yet the comments mad against Homer and the church are also without grace and lack mercy.
I have just accepted that everyone is on a different stage of their journey in Christ. We may see short comings in people or churches that affect us.
True GRACE says - Lord this is not the way it should be, But I will learn to accept people at whatever stage they are at. Growing in grace means we who have seen the other side are able to BEAR the rubbish and allow God in his time to deal with it.
I am not advocating silence but a trust in God that he will sort it out and when he gives us the opportunity to speak we speak graciously.
November 16th, 2005 at 2:51 pm
Ned…are you agreeing that the tithe is an ungraceful form of religious usury akin to the extortive practices used by the Catholic Church to raise funds for their building programmes…?
November 16th, 2005 at 2:52 pm
Ned…are you agreeing that the tithe is an ungraceful form of religious usury akin to the extortive practices used by the Catholic Church to raise funds for their building programmes by the sale of indulgences….?
November 16th, 2005 at 3:11 pm
Tithe procedures.
“The church is to collect an offering, to pay the church’s various bills, and to fund a variety of causes external to the church.
If you are told the appropriate amount to be contributed is 10 per cent of your pre-tax income, do not ask if all of the men of the city should also be brought to the church to stone to death disobedient children, or ask if the women present are having their period and would therefore be unclean. This would involve ‘being a smartarse’ and is prohibited.
Do not question the pastor’s teaching, at any time, under any circumstances, in any fashion, directly or indirectly.
Do not infer the pastor’s teaching may be faulty or false.
If you disagree with the church it is YOUR problem, not the church’s. Do not crack the shits.
The size of the offering collection device should be no larger than a small bucket and no smaller than a felt-covered bag with two handles on either side, to be known as ‘The Offering Bag’.
Do not collect the offering using a thimble or a front-end loader.
Do not install a cash register in view of the congregation.”
From The New Church Law - 2005.
November 16th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
I would extend grace to Homer if he asked for it, but being that he is perfect in every way he has excluded himself from it.
the rev
November 17th, 2005 at 1:05 am
Lionfish
I agree churches and pastors abuse the tithe and have used
manipulation to preach on tithes.
When I silenced my heart, looked at the scriptures, asked God-
I came to the conclusion that tithing is still a NT principle.
It should not be done out of legalism and law but it can be proved in the NT.
You may disagree. I’m fine with that.
Lance
You have obviously been hurt. People have thrown stones at you and wounded you. It should not have happened.
Why then are you throwing some massive boulders around yourself? Do others deserve mercy or only yourself?
November 17th, 2005 at 6:20 am
Tithing: “but it can be proved in the NT.”
I’d be very interested to see that Ned.
And out of curiosity, what church do you belong to?
November 17th, 2005 at 6:36 am
Jesus talking to the pharisees says, “you tithe every little bit of every little thing but you forget justice and mercy, this you should have done *without neglecting the first*”
that is the one I usually am given
I believe God asks for everything, not a tenth.
the rev
November 17th, 2005 at 7:19 am
too busy yesterday with the world cup.
I see rev still is making up things without evidence.
with regard to tithing we should merely remember we areb stewards of God’s money.
The greatest return is investing in the Kingdom.
November 17th, 2005 at 10:59 am
Ned,
I concur with Jane:
“Tithing: “but it can be proved in the NT.”
I’d be very interested to see that Ned”.
Please show me Ned - as many others have tried but failed to do so.
November 17th, 2005 at 1:05 pm
Come back Ned…its only a flesh wound!
November 17th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
I was an associate pastor of a largish church in Perth. I ended up leaving a few years ago. I currently pastor a home church.
Like most have already stated i began to see things preached and pushed by other leaders which concerned me. The use of legalism in tithing, pressure on people to give and control by leaders was affecting my spirit.
I was a pastor and did not like some of the direction the churches were taking. Anyway I needed time out and one of the areas I decided to investigate was tithing.
When you have been hurt its easy to throw out the “baby with the bathe water”. I decided to ask God about tithing and not allow some of the rubbish being preached by leaders.
I felt God direct me to Abraham giving melchizedek 10% as a priciple. We are sons of Abraham and we are to give a basic 10 % to Jesus (heavenly melchizedek)
I searched Hebrews and again it mentions tithing, Melchizedek etc. Now this is in a NT book so I believed it was relevant.
I do not accept tithing by legalism or to get blessed or selfish reasons. I see it as a type of “down payment” we give to God as a love offering.
I agree with others that we are to give everything to Jesus
but still consider the tithe as applicable.
I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. I searched for myself and this is how God directed me.
I will not put that burden on others if they see differently.
I hope that explains where I am coming from
November 17th, 2005 at 4:36 pm
“You have obviously been hurt. People have thrown stones at you and wounded you. It should not have happened.
Why then are you throwing some massive boulders around yourself? Do others deserve mercy or only yourself?”
I was one of these types who used to give people the benefit of the doubt, and kept getting walked over as a result…particularly in the realm of the whole gay thing.
So I no longer deal with church people on an ‘innocent until proven guilty’ basis, but ‘guilty until proven innocent’.
And I tell you what…it quickly sorts out who are fair dinkum about their Christianity, and who’s playing the game.
Last night on yahoo chat, I made the mistake of giving the benefit of the doubt to a Perth Christian.
All I know is..he attends an ‘independent pentecostal church that broke away from AOG’ church, south of the River.
He was doing the standard being nice thing..but before long …broke out into the ‘poof..fag…donut-puncher’ routine….and then proceeded to go off and have a ciggy and watch Blue Heelers, rather than discuss the bible.
The reality is that most Aussie Christians operate exactly like this. That was not unusual at all.
You are guilty until proven innocent.
November 17th, 2005 at 4:44 pm
Lance
I know where you are coming from and I struggled with same feeling. I mixed with pastors and ended up hating the lot of them.
I realised many leaders and christians have never come to a place of real freedom in their lives - so they take it out on other believers.
The best thing I did Lance was to mix with christinas who love and accept you for who you are. Trying to change people is impossible. As I refocused on God again the pain of the past slowly began to get healed.
I still know there are many christian jerks out there - I have decided not to mix with them. But there is still alot of decent believers who will embrace you. Find healing in a environment of people you can trust.
November 17th, 2005 at 4:47 pm
oops if i mixed with christinas my wife would not be happy……………should read “mixed with christians”
November 17th, 2005 at 4:56 pm
“Find healing in a environment of people you can trust.”
I do. GCN (gaychristian.net) has a growing group of Perth members, and we chat each Tuesday night with other Aussie gay believers.
As for the standard Perth church being a ‘healing environment of people you can trust’…what a sick joke that is.
November 17th, 2005 at 8:52 pm
Frankly Phil I think the Yanks addle your brain.”Christianity has been buried within the walls of the Church…..”
What does that mean?Which Christianity?(christian Pacifist and anarchist;christian liberationist?;neoconservative?;evangelical-right and left; or mainstream liberal??J.P Wogaman)
Which Church? Taize?Focalare?Riverside Drive?St Georges Cathedral - Jerusalem(Home of Liberation Theology Center),Jensen’s cathedral,Hillsong,UCA (as it stood up to a withering attack by the liberal party hacks at the Senate inquiry yesdterday),etc,the new monasticism(good first century christianity)?Industrial mission in south yorkshire?Interfaith Worker Justice?Creative Ministries Network?.
What is liberation - does not every generation struggle with where the Spirit leads them? Does not every generation believe that theirs the unique, the only,the revolution?the paradigmatic?
The arrogance of those who dismiss the work and power of the Spirit in a diversity of congregations and churches sometimes is breathtaking.
Within the “walls”,its not hunky dory,never was - the kingdom is always emerging and being proclaimed but when I look for help and guidance and resources on how to handle and confront the evils and bastards of darkness, whether howards industrial laws,Vanstones brutalisation of asylum seekers,Costellos screwing of the working poor,Downers preference for companies in distributing aid,Iraq,the fascism of new terrorism laws etc its frequently from within the “walls”.
November 17th, 2005 at 9:06 pm
Alan,
I am currently liberated by just a few red wines….and [respectfully] I have absolutely no friggin’ idea what you comment is all about !?!
November 17th, 2005 at 9:50 pm
Are you pissed Lionfish?
November 17th, 2005 at 10:13 pm
No just a little soporific thanks to a Millbrook 2003 shiraz viognerier….mmmm
Ok, Ok, do I drink a little too much from time to time. I won’t make any arrogant excuses and blame it on anyone else – I do “fall” in this area.
That’s me, Lionfish – the Christian drunk blogger!
Some of my best writing is done under the influence.
And yes, drunkeness is listed in the same group of sins as fornication etc, etc - so too I am in danger of the fires of Hell.
But for the Grace of God.
November 17th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
You’re just having extended Communion, that’s all.
November 18th, 2005 at 5:47 am
I agree with Lance - judge not lest ye be judged. Let the Ultimate Arbiter decide who is right and wrong.
Except for Communists. Communism isn’t explicitly outlawed by the Bible (unfortunately) so it will just have to be that I alone shall decide who is and who isn’t a dirty rotten Communist, who is a fellow-traveller, and who is a dupe of the International Communist Conspiracy.
November 18th, 2005 at 8:44 am
Alan, you are of course right that the spirit moves in the “walls” of the church. You are correct that many expressions of the church through out the centuries have moved beyond the walls and continue to do so.
However, I think we can still use such language to paint a picture such as this quote of the pressing/actute/ongoing need of the western church to move beyond its walls. It would be my opinion that the majority of the western church is stuck behind the metaphoric walls and the challenge to move beyond them needs to be heard.
November 18th, 2005 at 5:48 pm
Alan, to blame Phils considerable addledness on my countrymen is a cheap shot and racist or bigoted!!!
There have always been groups that seek to operate outside of the christian ghetto, but to dismiss the fact that by and large people have circled the wagons and created insular, subcultures around their faiths is ridiculous.
The prophetic voice is always calling us to move out, to take the Spirit, which indwells each and every one of us surrendered to Jesus, out into the world by interacting with culture on more than just a political or economic level.
the rev