Comments on: How it was put together

By: Joe

Joe — Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:31:28 +0000

Wow. Is Mr. Paxton still commenting here?

By: Andrew

Andrew — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:17:13 +0000

Thanks for your response Bec. I agree with everything you had to say and appreciate your post. I suppose my more specific question should have been: Apart from the criteria by which Jesus judges us (personal/social issues, acknowledging the Messiah, by grace through faith, offering food and drink to those in need etc) I was interested in your comments on Jesus statement re the “eternal fire/punishment prepared for the devil and his angels”. Are we saved from this? (prompted by your comment 26)

By: saint

saint — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 04:33:02 +0000

Oops I should have addressed my last comment to Mike not Rev. Sorry Mike.

By: saint

saint — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 04:30:20 +0000

Comment 8:

‘I think the simplicity of all this is getting lost. Jesus said “I’m God” and, “Love your neighbour”. Robert says “I’m not buying the God part, but I think ‘love your neighbour’ is a good idea. I think I’ll run with it.”

The irony is Robert the aethist has figured out that we can’t logically deduce our way to God. ‘

Rev,
Robert the atheist may have figured that out (I actually don’t know enough about him to deduce that). I’ll just say this for now: While I hold that faith in Christ is ultimately a work of the Spirit, faith is never against reason. Beyond reason perhaps, but never against reason.

At the same time, faith in Christ is exactly that. Faith in Christ. Not figuring a particular ethical system is pretty cool, I think I’ll take that. You can find plenty of other ethical systems which teach a form of love your neighbour (trying to think if there are any that also teach love of your enemy). So for all we know (and again I don’t know) Robert the atheist may have just hardened his heart a little further against God, thinking he is OK and can go it alone.

By: Digger

Digger — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:01:16 +0000

And Geoff can you please make your comments a little more readable by inserting sentence and paragrah breaks?

By: dan

dan — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:26:37 +0000

All comments should now be restored. Geoff, you are getting caught by our spam filter - suggest you read the post at the link “comments being eaten” at the top of the right hand side bar for ways to avoid this.

By: Bec

Bec — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:17:59 +0000

Andrew - I think I touched on it in my post above? I said that I like the idea that Jesus lived and died to save us from ourselves, to save us from our own greed and self-absorption. I find it very difficult to read Matthew 25:31-46 and not think of the many people who declare that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour, and yet…and yet their ethical framework is focused on personal issues and not social issues, they’ll raise a hue and cry over gay marriage yet they’ve never visited someone in prison, they’ve never served in a soup kitchen…

If those that the King orders to depart from him are those that didn’t feed him, didn’t give him anything to drink, etc etc - then I honestly think that many of my non-Christian friends (including Muslims) have a better chance of not being ordered to depart than do many of my Christian friends.

That’s not to say that acknowedging the Messiah is not important - I think it’s absolutely central. I think it’s pretty hard to follow Christ and to serve Christ (to “invite him in”) if you don’t recognise him. I’m not sure I could do the stuff I do without Christ. I just don’t think it’s as simple as praying the Sinner’s Prayer…I think this passage illustrates that there’s an awful lot more to being “saved” than merely saying that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour…and I think that a lot of churches have turned Jesus and Christianity into a self-help guru…some kind of game show host that you just have to grin at and acknowledge that he’s Lord, and he’ll give you the keys into paradise.

Homer - I think that there are many, many Christians in Australia, in the world, who reject Jesus all the time. They say that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour (and I use those words because they’re the words many people use), but they reject him by their actions, because they don’t stand up and create a fuss about detention of refugees, they don’t make a fuss about homelessness in Australia, or the plight of indigenous people. They reject Jesus because they are rejecting ‘the least of these’.

By: kevin

kevin — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:07:10 +0000

phil - I was reading a comment from Geoff last night about ultimate grace - I thought it was on this role as my question to him was on it - has it been removed?

By: Geoff Bullock

Geoff Bullock — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:17:00 +0000

Homer, why must you always be right. What scared you about “wrong”. My problem is simple. I believe the bible shows us just how wrong mankind can get when they try to put Flesh back into words. The bible, for me, can be more like a fistfull of nails, or a stealth bomber full of smart bombs or a fundamentalist full of facts than a portrait full of God. I think that these words are in danger of being enthroned in a quadrinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Holy Scriptures. Surely God becoming a living word was, and is to correct our written word? Walk in unbelief my friend. Abandon all that you know and have been told of God. Stop believing in all your facts. Let God write the Christmas story.. his coming to individuals.. into your heart. It is our beliefs and faith that gets in the way of who he really is and how he chooses to reveal himself. Can you trust God to come to you outside of your teaching, traditions and teachers. Is he your personal self revealing God, or is he only Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul’s… not to mention Judas.. who, by the way, was one of the bravest men in the New Testament. The only disciple that actually pleaded for the life of Jesus. The only one who realised just how wrong his “facts” were and tried to undo all that he tried to bring about… ah, but that’s another discussion.

By: Geoff Bullock

Geoff Bullock — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:00:52 +0000

Homer.. why is being right so important to you? Why must every concept outside your godview be forced through your biblical blender. My problem is really simple. I believe that the bible shows us just how wrong we can get when we try to explain God in our words. The bible, to me, can be more like a fistfull of nails.. or a Stealth Bomber full of smart bombs.. or a fundamentalist full of self righteousness.. than a portrait full of God. If the bible is so perfect, why did Jesus bother making the words into flesh? Couldn’t God just write another few chapters? But… look at how brilliantly the Old Testament revealed Jesus to Annas the High Priest? Annas was a holy, dedicated, God fearing man. He knew the first five books of the bible by heart. How could he get it so wrong? For me, the bible shows man’s incurable desire to lock God back into human structures. As flesh.. he is too dangerous for he cannot be explained and contained.. but, as words.. well it’s easy then.. all you need is an interpretation of a verse and you don’t need faith.. you now have fact and you can crucify to your hearts content. We have no choice. To know who God really is we have to stop believing in who we think or need or have been told that he is, and trust him to write the Christmas story, his coming to man, into our lives. Now that’s totally scary. I dare you to believe in God.. not facts. Can you choose to walk in unbelief? Can you abandon all that you know and have been taught about God, and, let God come to you in Self revelation, to rewrite his story into your heart. That’s what Christmas is all about. God jumps out of the bloody pages that will eventually demand his death and challenges all he meets with a revelation that requires unbelief and unfaith, for it is OUR faith and OUR belief that gets in the way of the His reality.