when is a Church building not a church
Matt Glover posts about an exciting venture of Mictham Baptist here in Melbourne – Australia. He makes some interesting observations about whether the building is the church or not.
Matt writes:
“Yesterday saw the official opening of “the Factory” - the community facility provided by the people that make up my church. It’s not a particularly unusual space. A few years ago we sold everything we had to establish a facility to meet more of the needs in our suburb, plus help us to better resource mission and ministry. There’s an indoor kids space, indoor soccer, outdoor basket ball, space for the skaters, heaps of multi-purpose rooms for different groups to use and a whole lot of stuff that we’re only just beginning to dream of.
Nevertheless, when I show people through the facility, I still get the same question over and over again. They ask, “Is this a church?”
The answer is no. It is not a church. The sign out the front says, “The Factory - A Community Space Provided by Mitcham Baptist Church.” The Factory is part of the mission of the church, but it is not the church.”
(Read the whole post by Matt here)
I was interested in the post because we have gone a different route at Northern Community. We have built a facility that includes a whole range of different spaces and places including a op shop, function centre, youth space, warehouse etc. Yet, we call the whole thing the Ministry Centre which keeps a fairly close link with people’s perception of it being the Church. I think Matt is right when he points out that the Church is not the building but the people. Yet, space helps communicate what you are on about – as I take people through our building the common comment I get is that the worship happens in the auditoriam. One person even said to me that it was “where the main stuff happened!”. Yet, the reality is the our many different congregations use different spaces.
Language, visual reminders, buildings are all strong statements about what we are on about – I like Matt’s approach of thinking this through.
November 29th, 2005 at 2:44 pm
“I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
….except perhaps changing the well established paradigms of the church (people that is ;-)….now there’s a real challenge!!
November 29th, 2005 at 3:07 pm
Yep, very true Andrew!
November 30th, 2005 at 6:20 am
I think the same goes for “missional communities” - when is the group of people you’ve gathered together for the purpose of growing closer to each other and to God a church, and when is it just a group?
As emerging churches become increasingly interested in welcoming people into their midst for the “belonging before believing” type of process, these distinctions are becoming increasingly difficult. I don’t think something is automatically a church just because someone calls it one.
</provocation>
December 1st, 2005 at 1:29 am
interesting concept.
most of us don’t REALLY know what church is,
but some of us are finally realising that the four walls,altar and door that we call church, isn’t it!
be blessed
keep challenging us - me
December 1st, 2005 at 7:15 am
Phil and I had a brief discussion about the possibility of “invitational” mission a few weeks ago, as opposed to either incarnational or attractional.
Thinking along those lines, I like the definition of church as ‘a group of people who have accepted the invitation to live life together with God.’
December 1st, 2005 at 7:48 am
I like that.
To me church is the community of faith that you are part of, it is not a building, a service or a project, but rather the relationships of followers of Jesus.
the rev
December 1st, 2005 at 11:01 pm
I think this Matt Glover’s so called ‘church’ is going down the path of heresy because they don’t have a neon-light cross that is as proportionately large as their building is!! Thats the key to a really effective ministry!!
December 1st, 2005 at 11:09 pm
At least when we gather, Digger, we keep our clothes on…
December 2nd, 2005 at 7:07 am
You are both legalistic pharisees, God doesn’t care about clothes and neon crosses…
he cares about cleanliness
and that eliminates you two, or is it illuminates? I forget
the rev
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:45 am
Pharisees would go to a church. Synagogue proably more appropriate
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:55 pm
Homer,
thanks for your brilliant addition to this thread, it was most welcome, and amazingly informative.
the rev
December 2nd, 2005 at 2:03 pm
When is a Church really a Business?
How do you know the difference between the two?
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:39 pm
hahahahahahaha…Homer, that’s very funny (except that the humour is somewhat lost because yet again you have typos…I’m sure you meant “wouldn’t” go to a church, rather than “would”??)
December 6th, 2005 at 10:49 pm
Pharisee Glover doesn’t go to a church or a synagogue Homer don’t worry-he just goes to a cult!
December 7th, 2005 at 7:21 am
good question lionfish, but it would seem the frivolity on this thread makes it not the place to discuss it.
the rev
December 7th, 2005 at 10:33 am
Can you remind us how you choose the leaders in your group Digger…?
And you call us a cult…
Lionfish: Thinking about posting an answer to your question on my blog. The Forge session on innovation over the weekend got me thinking about the same thing - i a way I didn’t really expect. Give me a week or so.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:05 pm
Cheers Matt.
December 21st, 2005 at 1:53 pm
[…] When God Speaks?
When is a Church Really a Business?
In this post over at Signposts, Lionfish asked the […]
December 21st, 2005 at 6:44 pm
Lance, Phil Baker, Geoff Bullock et al…I have left the first comment at Matt’s site.
Would appreciate your comments as this is all very topical.
If it goes no further…I will assume that all contemporary churches are in fact businesses.
December 21st, 2005 at 7:46 pm
“If it goes no further…I will assume that all contemporary churches are in fact businesses.”
Well, that would be a little silly - don’t you think?
December 21st, 2005 at 7:58 pm
It is the silly season
August 31st, 2006 at 2:59 am
The scriptures are the final authority. Stop using your ideas and ‘traditions’ which you have grown up in over the years and study the scriptures. Remember what JESUS said,’… Thy Word is truth’.
August 31st, 2006 at 10:22 am
thanks troy…and now for some of your own thoughts? What do you mean?