AMWAY and the contemporary church
Lionfish, a regular commenter at signposts has doing some comparasion work in this thread with AMWAY and the contemporary church typified by Hillsongs and others. He has taken it the next step and wonders if the contemporary church is actually a heightened AMWAY program.
He writes: Imagine if
“…some slick pragmatic operators were to grab hold of and develop a much more efficient form of the Amway Business model:
1) Let’s eliminate the need for physical product. With the cost of production, logistics inventory and stock losses – services always have much higher gross margins than physical product.
2) Lets keep only those physical products that keep well, sell well such as motivational books, CD’s and resources…even better if we can sell them over the Internet!
3) Let’s fill the warehouse with an experience that appeals to their emotions….surely God must be here with those catchy tunes, jokes, good-guy-back-slappin’ and all that flattery.
4) Let’s now tell them that their upline’s are God’s anointed – and should not be questioned. We will do the thinking for them.
5) Let’s tickle their ears with swallow-follow motivational teaching that makes them feel important and that God has an amazing plan for their lives.
6) Who cares about adequate hermeneutics and exegesis – anyway that for boring old seminarian qualified Pastors that answer irrelevant questions that nobody wants to know about anymore…like salvation, the mystery of baptism, the sacraments, sin, predestination, and freewill. What good is that if it does not appear to improve their lives – right here, right now!
7) Let’s tell them that its right that they go out and work harder to double their incomes – as they will have more to give away…to Us and our House of God. Contentment is for the Lazy.
Lets twist the scriptures…just a little when it comes to money – tell them that God will bless and prosper them if they bring 10% pre-tax into the ‘House of God’ and infer that they will be robbing God if they don’t…heaping curses upon themselves.
9) If any one questions this teaching – try making them fell guilty “because lives hang in the balance over this one” and because God gave you a revelation about this.
10) Let’s tell them that this old commercial warehouse is “The House of God”…and to contribute to it is their first priority on the road to success. They can only give to World Vision and other good causes after they have brought their whole tithe to God’s House.
11) Let’s tell them that they just can’t get enough of our tapes, conferences and events – as if they do they will miss the important key’s in their life – or worse God talking to them through the anointed speakers.
12) Remember, familiarity breeds contempt, don’t get to close to a downline. Remember what happened the Wizard of Oz when Dorothy pulled back the curtain and saw the Wizard as he really is – small, fallible and equally human. Let’s use sophisticated image management techniques, spin, rhetoric to ensure that there is a mystique between the Us and those down-lines on the spiritual treadmill continuously craving narcissistic supply which you will have the power to regulate.
13) Let’s promote our own Good works and generous deeds, and those of the seriously wealthy within our community - like there is no tomorrow. To hell with what the Bible says about discretion – there is no PR value in that!
14) Let’s focus the majority of our efforts of recruiting and fundraising to ensure that we replace those leaving via the backdoor after being burned out – and manage the levels of churn to ensure continuous upward growth.
15) Build a network with other like-minded Business model…self promote, get on the lucrative Pentecostal speaking circuit to seriously supplement your income and widen the geographic distribution of your resources.
16) Remember, to protect and maintain the secrecy of the Business Model at all costs. Church is a Family affair….maintain control of the Business at all times – so that it may be passed down into the hands of your Children…and your children’s children.
17) Therefore make sure that the governance stature never becomes a democracy – but retains the appearance of a Church to capture all those wonderful tax benefits that are available…such as the ability to buy your own cars cheaply and make a profit at the end of the novated lease!.
Aren’t we all so glad that this sort of nightmare does not happen in real life! “
January 27th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
And in the case of Phil Baker’s Revenue Church, substitute the word ‘Omegatrend’ for ‘Amway’.
Lance.
January 27th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
lionfish..
i think in a previous life that we were the same person
January 27th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
I should add,
18) If anyone speaks out against what you are doing - especially if it is the Truth - do not respond with a solid argument….you will only get caught out. Instead wait until the storm is over, use Character assasination, get other people to say that this person lacks courage, is of poor character, is negative, must be depressed or metally ill, or have other sin in their life and a ‘dream stealer’ destined to live only a small, humble and mediocre life.
Use this to your advantage - to discourage other people who may have similar thoughts from speaking out.
January 27th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
Yes Lionfish - the other sin is also “secret sin” in their life. I always liked being told I had secret sin, because I didn’t know what it was, the person telling me didn’t know what it was, and BOY… was that hard to get forgiveness for.
January 28th, 2006 at 9:17 am
February 12th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Kevin and others,
Now that I have spent alot of thought/time on this issue, I have (last week) received a copy a constitution of a contemporary Church which I believe aligns with my AMWAY theory.
I have found resolution to the ‘puzzle’ that is the Contemporary Church operating model…I can now ‘walk’ in peace and good conscience and refocus on important things in my own life.
We know its all dodgy!.
This is the constitution taken from the publicly available ‘Objects of the Association’ of a Contemporary Church:
A) to promote the Gospel and worship of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Word of God;
B) to equip individuals to live better Christian lives by the preaching of the Word of God through the creation of teaching and DISTRIBUTION of literature, tapes, films and other media including audio tapes, Cd’s and video’s;
C) To organise, engage in and conduct public meetings, seminars teaching schools as endorsed from time to time by the Board of Trustees of the organisation herein constituted;
D) To seek to cooperate with other churches and associations to effectively fulfil the above-mentioned objectives; and
E) To do all such other things that may be considered incidental or conducive to these objectives including, but not limited to, the entering into of an agreement to purchase lease or borrow. This may include the ownership of copyright materials or hold of such an agency capacity.
The property and income of the Association shall be applied solely toward the objects of the association and no part of that property or income may be paid or otherwise distributed, directly or indirectly, to trustees, EXCEPT on good faith in the promotion of these objects.
Compare this with the Objects of the constitution for a ‘Established Church’:
The Objects of the Congregation are:
(a) to glorify the Triune God in its worship and in its work;
(b) to bear witness to the Lord Jesus Christ through the proclamation of the Gospel in accordance with the Confession and practice of the Church;
(c) to gather into the Congregation such persons as are, or desire to become, members of the Church for their edification through the Word and the Sacraments;
(d) to help the members to dedicate their God-given spiritual, material and physical gifts to the service of their Lord;
(e) to reach out into the community as bearers of the Good News of God’s salvation in Jesus Christ for all men;
(f) to exercise discipline over its members in conformity with the Scriptures and the Confession of the Congregation;
(g) to join with the Church and District in building and extending the Kingdom of God;
(h) to acquire, dispose of or otherwise deal with real and personal property in the interest of the work of the Church and the Congregation.
If a constitution and its objectives are what define the ‘DNA’ of a contemporary Church then it’s little wonder that there is labelling of these Churches as being a “Pop-Christianity” a “Cashed up cult” or an “Amway-like” Business that gets people hooked on an endless treadmill of motivational tapes CD’s, and courses, conferences all coming with an expensive price tag.
Coupled with a lack of transparency, absence of AGM’s for its Members then I am happy to rest my case.
February 12th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
I would only add to that …..
‘…absence of AGM’s for its members [as required by law] then I am happy to rest my case’
It’s now February 2006….Phil Baker’s had his holiday…and there’s still no sign of the promised answer to the questions……
‘Does Revenue Church hold an AGM as required under WA’s Association Incorporation Act….to ensure .the organisation is run in a democratic manner.
‘Does Inside Out Ministries Inc. (Phil Baker’s book publishing arm) hold an AGM..as required under WA’s Association Incorporation Act…to ensure the organisation is run in a democratic manner.
Does Revenue Church Inc….or Inside Out Ministries Inc…as not-for-profit organisations ….provide any pecuniary/financial gain to any of its members…including the leaders of Revenue Church?
Phil promised through The Rev to answer these questions.
But yet again it was another lie.
Lance.
February 12th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Phil Baker’s extremely shit-on-the-liver reply to Lionfish’s concerns is (finally) posted on Baker’s blog.
http://www.philbaker.net/comment/3074
“Phil
OK, Lionfish..
Feedback.. I answer all letters, speak to whoever wants to talk to me pre and post every service I am in. Try to meet any critics…
Finances: All financial questions are handled by our business manager. Full accounts are available. We have two types of auditors, one purely financial, one systems.
Personal Finances. Yes sometimes I am invited to speak to other groups..[amway included, once I think last year.] As a result many from these various businesses have begun their spiritual journey. Yes I receive money from these….Sometimes the chqs go directly into the church or giving areas of the church. However those that don’t have enabled me to freeze my salary [which was never that large…ie never exceeding 100,000] and more recently reduce it. All the cars around here are bottom of the range vehicles and paid for out of our own salaries and at regular fleet discount rates….
Tithing…I agree with Allen re his big point that tithing is found in both OT and NT and that the cross changes it but does not destroy it…We never teach it as law.
Allan has his degrees out of Denver Theological seminary and is a great expositor and theologian regardless of you holding a different position than him. To then ascribe some kind of scurrilous motive to his theological position is asinine.
Governance: Our church is not congregational govt but presbyterian in its form. Something clearly explained to all new people and welcomed by many who have experienced tha dark side of congregational voting. As a church gets larger [within the congregational system] it invariably leads to those you want pulling out of the process…the politicians work the crowd…those with charisma make it and an out of control leader maintains an even greater grip…Thus Jim Jones, Jim Bakker and Jimmy swaggert are all products of this kind of church. Every reasonable commentator I have read favours one or other of the models of church governance but is quick to say all have some biblical support and all are flawed.[ No, not lionfish who refuses to participate or give at any church that is not so constituted]…which is ok by me, but to then judge all others as ’suspect’ is deplorable.
I know for my part I will continue to follow the call on my life…love people and try to build the local church God has called me to. You may disagree but to sound off all the time as being the only one who thinks, questions etc is painful.
I am happy to still meet with you but from what I have seen you are convinced that your take is right so I must be lying, deceived, in it for the money or power etc
Hard to take someone that seriously who begins by attacking the church you have spent your life building and suggesting the worst of motives. Australians are thinking people…quick to spot a fraud and certainly not into pretensiousness. The greatest miracle is that people are coming in their masses to our church and others like them..I guess all of them are not thinking deeply and just in it for entertainment…If that is what you honestly believe I feel sorry for you…”
The Empire Strikes Back.
February 13th, 2006 at 10:53 am
I just posted this on Phils blog.
Phil you made this comment-
“Australians are thinking people…quick to spot a fraud and certainly not into pretensiousness. The greatest miracle is that people are coming in their masses to our church and others like them..”
Well Phil can you please explain why for years you promoted the ministry of Ian Bilby
who turned out to be a serial adulterer. What happenend to the thinking people in your church??????? More importantly Phil, what happened to YOUR spiritual discernment as a leader. You allowed a hypocrite into you church, you also promoted him to the leaders and churches of Perth as a great pastor and authority figure on leadership.
Phil you used your position as a key christian leader in Perth and released a wolf into the city. Have you ever apologised to the churches for your total lack of discernment.
The early church leaders where men of spiritual discernment who were not just interested in NUMBERS but keeping the church free from wolves.
By your post you seem to think because “masses” are attending Riverview you have God’s total approval.
Phil in the real world masses and masses of kids are on drugs and dying. Divorces are rampant, crime is on the increase.
Multitudes went to support the Westen force rugby union team in Perth. I suppose God is on their side.
Phil you have promoted yourself and Riverview via Church Together , Conferences etc. You consider yourself a spiritual leader in this city. I will not argue against that.
I just want to know - if you are going to take the blessings are you going to be accountable for your lack of spiritual discernment when promoting false leaders.
Pastor David Wilkerson said that God revealed to him Perth was like the church in Sardis. Have a good read Phil about Sardis and I would suggest David Wilkerson is the sort of leader christians in Perth need to hear not just the ones that bring in the masses.
February 13th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
There’s been a great (sarcastic) response to Phil Baker’s defence-of-the-indefensible on his blog from ‘KenOath’.
“KenOath
Who else is ministering effectively to the affluent, self-absorbed, semi-mature and parochial citizens of Perth? For too long the church has been obsessed with the poor, the unwanted, the dregs of society.
It’s about time the church started mixing with the high-flying, high-income earners; these people have spiritual needs, too. Without the rich, there would be no poor!
Why can’t Phil earn mega-dollars as part of a mega-church hoping to be a mega-influence?
Phil, I can’t see anything wrong with your salary - in fact, it’s a bit on the low side. It can be difficult to live on $100,000 these days when you consider the cost of good private schools, top of the line cars, etc. Phil, don’t portray a poor image of yourself and your church by driving bottom of the range cars - surely you want to create the best impression for God - get a highly specified European import and make you and your church proud to be serving God.”
Now there’s one point that needs to be made about this ’salary’ thing.
Now Phil Baker…it’s not less than $100,000 is it?
When you speak at another church on the Hillsong circuit…..that’s a few thousand a pop each time…plus any ‘love offerings’ that come your way.
Plus you’ve admitted that you pocket cheques for speaking at other organisations, in your role as senior pastor of Revenue Church…beyond your ’salary’.
Then there’s Inside Out Ministries Inc, your supposedly non-profit book and resource publishing ministry.
Still waiting for answers on that one as to whether you abide by the Associations Incorporation Act, and derive no pecuniary gain from that Incorporated body.
So…’less than a $100,000 salary’ was quite misleading…….
Particularly given Brian Houston has openly admitted, that his income stream is set-up in a similar way through Leadership Ministries Inc. (LMI) where the church salary is minimised….but the money comes in through not-so-out-in-the-open means.
Income coming from a variety of different sources around the church speaking circuit..so one particular ‘pastor’ can claim they don’t derive a huge salary from their own church.
Each church simply pays each other church’s pastor/speaker obscene amounts of money…
Phil B. we look forward to you fulfilling your promise that all accounts are made available.
For example….roughly how much was Darlene Zchech paid to appear at Revenue Church last year?
And how much were you …Phil B. paid to speak at Hillsong?
February 13th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Posted this on Phil Bakers blog in response to a question asked by Rohan.
====================================================
Rohan
That is a good question. What is failing miserably is the accountability process within each local church. Senior pastors have elevated their positions where they can sack and fire people at will. They will have no opposing voice. This is because of their INSECURITY. They justify their control by using the words lack of unity, weren’t following the vision (senior pastors own ideas). The boards are mostly yes people who will not challenge the senior minister.
Therefore the christian church must look to other means of accountability.
The internet can be open to abuse but it can also be used for genuine questioning.
Usually the pastors who run the city wide church events have large churches and want all the smaller churches to support all their activities.
I feel that maybe smaller church pastors should gather and fellowship together.
They should make a collective statement to the large churches that they will not
support every event by large churches.
If they feel the speaker is not suited to perth - dont attend the meetings.
If junk is preached make the sponsoring church aware of your disapproval.
If visiting speakers are proven to be in error like Ian Bilby - tell the sponsoring large church that you will hold the senior pastor accountable for lack of discernment and exposing the sheep to wolves.
To be quite honest senior pastors need to start having a healthy Godly fear that other churches will no longer be used and manipulated.
What is the REAL motive for high profile visiting speakers - most times its to advertise the sponsoring church. Are the motives really to build Gods kingdom of there own little empire.
Its time for a reformation in the church - its not gonna come from large senior ministers - they have too much of a vested interest.
Martin Luther got fed up with the junk and the senior clergy were blind.
There needs to be some luthers who say we have had enough.
February 14th, 2006 at 4:26 am
I was given a practical lesson yesterday on the true nature of the contemporary church.
I was at Glendalough train station in Perth … and had exactly $2 on me, with the intention of catching the train into town, and then going to the ATM and getting out some more cash.
So I put the $2 in the machine, and of course, it swallowed the coin, and there was no ticket.
I called over the train station guard and the conversation went something like this.
Lance: I put the $2 in the machine and it didn’t give me a ticket.
Uniformed Scottish Git: Well, there’s nothing I can do.
Lance: What do you mean there’s nothing you can do, I paid $2 for the ticket and I haven’t been given the ticket I paid for.
Uniformed Scottish Git: I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do. No-one else has complained. Sometimes when coins go into the machine, they don’t go through the machine properly.
Lance: So you know that the machine is sometimes faulty?
Uniformed Scottish Git: I didn’t say that, I’m sorry there’s nothing I can do.
Lance: See that security camera up there? You will have recorded footage of me putting the money in the machine twice, once with the machine rejecting the coin, and the second time with the machine swallowing the coin without printing a ticket.
Uniformed Scottish Git: I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do.
Lance: Who do I need to speak to, to either get my ticket, or get my $2 back?
Uniformed Scottish Git: Look, I can radio the train control centre, any fault on any ticket machine will register at the centre.
Lance: So there is something you can do?
(Uniformed Scottish Git makes two-way radio contact with mission control).
Uniformed Scottish Git: I’m sorry, but the machine has not registered any fault.
Lance: Then the fault registering system is faulty.
Uniformed Scottish Git: I’m sorry there’s nothing I can do. You can’t board the train without a ticket, there’s a ticket machine downstairs.
Lance: You bastard.
Uniformed Scottish Git: You cannot board the train without a valid ticket.
Lance: You bastard.
And so I then walk 2 kilometres on a stinking hot day from Glendalough to Mount Hawthorn, get some money out of ATM and take a bus into the city.
Now …what’s all this got to do with the contemporary church?
What does the train system and the contemporary church have in common?
They are both clearly faulty systems.
What does the oversight and fault-checking of the train system and the contemporary church have in common?
They work neither on the train system or in the contemporary church
WHO is blamed for being ripped off by the faulty system itself, AND the failure of the fault-checking procedure of the train system and the contemporary church?
The mug who keeps being spun the false line that the system is working.
I thank God for my little run-in with the Uniformed Scottish Git yesterday, because it clearly showed me there is absolutely no difference between how the church and the world both establish and maintain faulty systems overseen by faulty systems.
Any contemporary church pastors who might be reading this, please say hi to your hand-picked buffoons who theoretically oversee you…but believe all the same shit you do.
And don’t tell me there’s nothing you can do.
Lance White.
February 14th, 2006 at 9:24 am
uninformed scottish git sounds like groundskeeper willie
February 14th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
At least Groundskeeper Willie would have saved the day by greasing himself up, and ripping the machine apart with his bare hands.
But this Scottish Git was just another one of Alannah’s Arseholes, a former nightclub bouncer or failed cop or former prison officer, with all the interpersonal skills of a bag of sugar, given the power to roam up and down trains, inspect tickets, and push teenage kids around.
March 13th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Here is an interesting link:
“The exponential growth of multi-level marketing has been fueled by the development of comprehensive training and motivational systems that provide the recruit with a complete set of moral and spiritual values that are presented as necessary to succeed in the business.
Sadly, many of these values are represented as ‘Christian’ but are most often are a satanic distortion of Biblical truth. Once the programme was ‘Christianized’ it has increasing appeal to churches and seen as financially attractive for Church finances. Pastors and Elders can assume higher levels within the selling hierarchy and recruit their congregation to the lower levels thus maximizing their earning potential from their congregation’s volume sales. This is the beginning of the infiltration of multi-level marketing into the church and its misguided emphasis on creating wealth, visualization techniques which are an important part of their teaching and distraction from its mission of preaching the gospel. Furthermore it is interesting that after universal acceptance of multi-level marketing principles the Church digressed to market its own products and services to the world by embracing seeker services which promote psychology and New Age influences.
The doctrine and teachings of one of the largest multi-level marketing training systems in the World has been examined in the light of God’s Word. The marketing philosophy is well documented and easily understood from their training systems which comprise numerous cassette tapes, seminars, books and brochures available. Discerning Christians who were once former participants of these training materials believe that some multi-level marketing training systems are the most comprehensive and dangerous imitations of New Testament Christianity in operation today as the methods and language often mirror fundamental Christianity.
http://www.truthwatch.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=130
March 13th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
mmm looks like a pretty conservative website . I have seen worse but I am always a bit dubious about these type of websites
March 13th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Yes, but in light of the evidence (see comment 6) I think this page is on the money.
March 13th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
St Jerome:
“Avoid, as you would the plague, a clergyman who is also a man of business”
http://www.answers.com/topic/avoid-like-the-plague
March 13th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Send that quote to Phil Baker, Brian Houston and Pat Mesiti. I’d love to get their take on that one
March 19th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
History Never Repeats…or does it?
Whilst Brian Houston tells us “that we need more money” and Past Mesiti has repented his way back into his position as a Pastor of the Prosperity Gospel whilst concurrently teaching wealth creation seminars lin the Hillsong Auditorium* lets not lose sight of lessons learned from history.
This from Gibbs Magazine:
“The Rev. Ike Effect - One of the most well publicized and blatant forms of religious, church thievery was actually perpetrated by people like Rev. Ike, [Frederick Eikerenkoetter] who took large sums of money from the people or anyone who would give him money, by using prayer cloths, blessed oil, and prosperity plans (paper) and promised them they would get much more back from God by giving to Rev. Ike, and therefore to God. Massively the people sent him money, hoping for their return miracles of money and healing. There were other less publicized ministers who were running confidence games as well, but Rev. Ike was one of the earliest radio and television evangelists, who, without shame flaunted his ill-begotten wealth as early rap stars flaunted their money. He pandered for cash and was openly proud of what he spent it on–sparkling jewelry, new cars, and beautiful women. He went on celebrity shows and had cameos in movies. He lived the high life off other people’s money that he got by using the name of God without shame.
Like Jim Jones, Rev. Ike went so far as to reverse the Bible’s words as his motto, saying, “The LACK of money is the root of all evil.” The Apostle Paul wrote, “The LOVE of money is the root of all evil, which, while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith…. ” Yet the people kept going and giving to him in the name of God and always excusing his transgressions of Christian teachings and behavior.
[LF-Ed – Sounds alot like “You Need More Money” and excuses made on this Blog!].
Ike was raised early on as a boy preacher in a Holiness Church; he never worked, other than being a Chaplin in the AirForce. He received a Bachelor of Theology Degree from American Bible College, which seems to be a legitimate school, but other degrees are from non-accredited schools he created–Honorary Recognition, Doctor of the Science of Living (D. Sc. L.) conferred by United Church, Science of Living Institute, New York. He made himself a bishop and now about 71-years old, he is still receiving money from anyone willing to give it.
From a boy preacher, Ike knew the ways and easy acceptance he would find among Holiness people and others to his fairly good-looks and his smooth voice when he paraded a feigned holiness. Consequently, many Christians found it hard to believe that whileusing the name of Christ and seemingly still in the church, he would or could preach a gospel that went against so many truths of God. But he did just that, and they paid him to do so, as many are paying him and comparable ministers still.
But Ike was like so many ministers who are running scams today, he started his own church organization, gave himself titles and degrees of no real value, other than to those who are his victims and do not know the difference between real, worked-for degrees from accredited universities and degrees from diploma mills; he had money going directly to himself, without accountability, allowing anyone to evade income taxes; he defied the sound teachings of the church and had the ability to easily turn an apt phrase that would catch the attention of the unlearned. But he left the higher truths for money.
This is characteristic of Gospel of Wealth preachers.
Sadly, far too many Christians cannot or will not believe that ministers, bishops, pastors, preachers, etc., could be liars and scam artists that freely use the name of Christ and the things of God in wicked ways to advance their money-lust, their sexual lust, their egocentric lust, and their carnal desires. But they are in the ministry and the church plying their trade.
The great Apostle Paul, the most scholarly of all apostles and the major architect of the New Testament Church, warned the church that crooks would come in once he departed: Grievous wolves would come into the flock and not spare it, and also men who are already inside the church would turn from following Christ, and they too will destroy the flock. [Acts 20:29-31]
He also advised Christians “To take heed to yourselves….” [Acts 20:28] But many are not taking heed to themselves; they are not doing the self-examination he advised them to do: “Let a man examine himself and see if he be in the faith.” [1Cor. 11:28; 2 Cor.13:5] Resultantly, many ministers are not in the faith, but they still remain in positions of leadership in the church and corrupt and fleece Christians for a profession.
The Gospel of Wealth is a Ponzi Scheme many use to get rich and harm Christians by giving them the promise of wealth, while they have the people’s money as their actual wealth. The preachers of wealth blend Bible reasoning, which is their alchemy, and they take a mixture of Old Testament scriptures and some New Testament scriptures and blend them into a potion that says, God’s people should be the head and not the tail of the money pool. And the way that is done is by paying tithes and giving offering to them and God will do the rest in returning money to the giver”.
If you want to read the whole article…read here:
http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/Gospel%20of%20Wealth%20a%20Ponzi%20Scheme.htm
*http://www.mesiti.com/
March 20th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Gees there are some doosies out there - apparently Jesus can’t tell us all we need to to konw - he leaves some of it up to Angels…
http://www.eaglevision.com.my/ld13angels.htm
Kenneth Hagin in one of his vision where he saw the Lord in the book ”I Believe in Visions,” he spoke about how the Lord appeared to him. In a vision, he saw the Lord and the Lord spoke many things to him. Next to the Lord, there was an angel. Hagin noticed the angel standing there. Every time he looked at the angel, the angel opened his mouth to say something but every time he looked back at the Lord the angel stopped. Finally, he asked the Lord, “Lord who is this standing next to me?” The Lord said, “This is your angel.” And he has something to say to you. Hagin said, “Lord You are here, why don’t You tell me all these things?” The Lord said, “Have you not read the scriptures?” The Lord told him that He uses angels to speak to His people. Jesus spoke certain messages but certain messages He left for the angels to deliver. So, before the Lord left the Lord said, “Listen to your angel because the angel will lead you and guide you into prosperity.”
…reminds me of that book years ago by a guy named roland buck - called huimself pastro roland buck…pastor buck…pass the buck…Angles on Assignment it was called…biggest lot of shit I ever read - but made pastor buck a few more bucks!
May 4th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Breaking news. Omegatrend Collapses.
http://thewest.com.au/20060504/news/general/tw-news-general-home-sto134081.html
May 4th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Whoopsy…..
May 4th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Maybe they should cut their losses …
Get rid of costly ‘physical product’ … sell intagiable ‘experiences’ and tell their customers that all it costs is 10% of Gross and reBrand themselves as
“OmegaChurch”
May 4th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Close Lionfish….but I’d be going for “AlphaChurch” myself.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
You’re gonna spew Fishy….
“Maybe they should cut their losses …
Get rid of costly ‘physical product’ … sell intagiable ‘experiences’ and tell their customers that all it costs is 10% of Gross and reBrand themselves as
“OmegaChurch”
———–
http://omegachurch.com/onlinegiving.htm
Quantity Description Price
1 Tithes and Offering _________________
May 4th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
You’re f***ing kidding.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
Crikey!!!…Marikey!!!
If you read through the site they have the generic template for the megachurch - the online course subjects (authority, how to relate to your Pastor, Church governance) - all say alot!
July 23rd, 2006 at 11:29 am
Further Research in to Amway and the Church
Supporters of Amway
Controversy
Bogus Christainity
“Romans 16:17-18: Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth talk and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple”.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:42 am
“Romans 16:17-18: Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth talk and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple”.
Funny thing is, this is the verse that is thrown back at you when you question some of the stuff being preached in today’s pulpits.