Comments on: AMWAY and the contemporary church http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/ musings from those on the journey Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:06:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Lionfish http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-175568 Lionfish Sat, 04 Aug 2007 08:42:30 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-175568 Facelift, I have to be brief. 1) Credible sources beyond wikipedia (including CRI/Watchman etc) conect the teachings of EW Kenyon with the WoF doctrines. 2) Regardless of whether he repented or not, his influence on the movement is undeniable, as these erroneous teachings influenced and ins some cases were 'lifted' by Kenneth Hagin, father of the WoF as followed by Copeland, Hinn, Riverview, Houston and others. 3) The WoF movement which you advocate, is clearly erroneous - even in its present form. It is "another gospel" which bears closer resemblance to "The Secret" than it does orthodox Christianity. http://www.thesecret.tv/ 4) "Heresy is often Truth taken to an extreme". This ONE of the key reasons as to why your point of view is anaethema to the gospel. Prosperity is mentioned in the Bible - but it must be tempered with the teachings of Jesus and couched within a proper 'stewardship' theology ... Prosperity theology, as promoted by WoF teachers is dangerous and misleading teaching. 5) It do not understand how you see me changing the topic. 6) There is plenty of eveidence for the speaking circuit throughout this site. But why don't you start looking for answers by reaesrching how your own leaders and special visiting teachers such as 'Jesse Duplantis' "make their money"...? Facelift,

I have to be brief.

1) Credible sources beyond wikipedia (including CRI/Watchman etc) conect the teachings of EW Kenyon with the WoF doctrines.

2) Regardless of whether he repented or not, his influence on the movement is undeniable, as these erroneous teachings influenced and ins some cases were ‘lifted’ by Kenneth Hagin, father of the WoF as followed by Copeland, Hinn, Riverview, Houston and others.

3) The WoF movement which you advocate, is clearly erroneous - even in its present form. It is “another gospel” which bears closer resemblance to “The Secret” than it does orthodox Christianity. http://www.thesecret.tv/

4) “Heresy is often Truth taken to an extreme”. This ONE of the key reasons as to why your point of view is anaethema to the gospel. Prosperity is mentioned in the Bible - but it must be tempered with the teachings of Jesus and couched within a proper ’stewardship’ theology … Prosperity theology, as promoted by WoF teachers is dangerous and misleading teaching.

5) It do not understand how you see me changing the topic.

6) There is plenty of eveidence for the speaking circuit throughout this site. But why don’t you start looking for answers by reaesrching how your own leaders and special visiting teachers such as ‘Jesse Duplantis’ “make their money”…?

]]> By: signposts » Blog Archive » Amway and the Contemporary Church II http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-155792 signposts » Blog Archive » Amway and the Contemporary Church II Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:23:45 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-155792 [...] Further to my earlier post on Amway and the Contemporary Church. [...] […] Further to my earlier post on Amway and the Contemporary Church. […]

]]> By: emanresu http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-151138 emanresu Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:47:06 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-151138 I know this is quite late to respond (like, 10 months too late), but I'm actually pretty good friends with the founders of Omegatrend... AND I'm an ex-CCCer... I already feel like part of the family *hugs* I know this is quite late to respond (like, 10 months too late), but I’m actually pretty good friends with the founders of Omegatrend…
AND I’m an ex-CCCer… I already feel like part of the family *hugs*

]]> By: WIGGY http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-146431 WIGGY Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:08:42 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-146431 John thanks for posting mate. I am ex CCC as well. What CCC church r we talking here? I was at the "mothership" Oxford Falls Sydney - where were you stationed? But you are right John, the movement is smoke and mirrors and they worship a plastic sugar daddy Jesus who wants your 10% tithe as well as anything else he can possibly squeeze out of you. Hope you stick around John WIGGY John thanks for posting mate. I am ex CCC as well.
What CCC church r we talking here? I was at the “mothership” Oxford Falls Sydney - where were you stationed? But you are right John, the movement is smoke and mirrors and they worship a plastic sugar daddy Jesus who wants your 10% tithe as well as anything else he can possibly squeeze out of you.
Hope you stick around John

WIGGY

]]> By: John http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-146427 John Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:59:21 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-146427 I have just left a CCC church after 3 years. The music was the highlight of their services but the rest was either focused on giving or hearing the chief speak. So there would be a five minute intro to giving each week and if there was a 'guest'speaker a five minute mini sermon at the end of the guest speaking by a church leader, quoting various texts to support a 'love'offering. Small group was dominated by the literalist who could explain everything with a bible verse except prosperity, which would be expalined by a story about any father looking after their children. Strange that! We even had prayers for pay rises, job promotions, bequests etc which seemed out of context until the following week when a new building giving campaign was launched, a few months after moving into a new $3.5 million facility!! I have just left a CCC church after 3 years. The music was the highlight of their services but the rest was either focused on giving or hearing the chief speak. So there would be a five minute intro to giving each week and if there was a ‘guest’speaker a five minute mini sermon at the end of the guest speaking by a church leader, quoting various texts to support a ‘love’offering. Small group was dominated by the literalist who could explain everything with a bible verse except prosperity, which would be expalined by a story about any father looking after their children. Strange that! We even had prayers for pay rises, job promotions, bequests etc which seemed out of context until the following week when a new building giving campaign was launched, a few months after moving into a new $3.5 million facility!!

]]> By: signposts.org.au » Blog Archive » The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit” http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-146227 signposts.org.au » Blog Archive » The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit” Sat, 09 Sep 2006 06:18:07 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-146227 [...] In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church” Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit” ©2002 OAIM [...] […] In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church” Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit” ©2002 OAIM […]

]]> By: Reve http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145737 Reve Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:42:56 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145737 I mean, most of us, anyway...... I mean, most of us, anyway……

]]> By: Reve http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145736 Reve Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:11:36 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145736 LionFish, You're description in the thread intro is pure genius. I love it that you're here with us! Another thing occurred to me in the last cpl of days as well, on the subject of tertiary education - have you noticed that if you're any other denom other than AOG / CCC, you're church is full of youth doing external / secular uni degrees, but if you're in a Pente you're social standing / climbing potential depends on you're attendance at THEIR "Bible"/Ministry Training College? The money must remain in-house, no matter what! And (as you're no doubt illustrating) we also noticed that the social profile of the average Pente attendee is the same type of under-educated (or at least non-academic) highly-impressionable, highly excitable, highly ASPIRATIONAL suburban dimwit as the type that would fall for AMWAY? I mean, these are the type of people who idolise successful business-people, sportspeople, musicians, singers & actors, they would never admire a great thinker, writer or philosopher or even a philanthropist that was not connected to their denom. Fountain Lakes, anyone? Lookamoi! Lookamoi! These are the same ppl i found in my suburban high school (Hell High). If you weren't a brilliant footy player or surfer, you didn't exist. You were never thanked for being too intellectual or thoughtful. The same popularity game continues in to adulthood. You know, ...we never left the sandpit, but at least we're much smarter than we were back then ;o) LionFish,

You’re description in the thread intro is pure genius. I love it that you’re here with us!

Another thing occurred to me in the last cpl of days as well, on the subject of tertiary education - have you noticed that if you’re any other denom other than AOG / CCC, you’re church is full of youth doing external / secular uni degrees, but if you’re in a Pente you’re social standing / climbing potential depends on you’re attendance at THEIR “Bible”/Ministry Training College?

The money must remain in-house, no matter what!

And (as you’re no doubt illustrating) we also noticed that the social profile of the average Pente attendee is the same type of under-educated (or at least non-academic) highly-impressionable, highly excitable, highly ASPIRATIONAL suburban dimwit as the type that would fall for AMWAY?

I mean, these are the type of people who idolise successful business-people, sportspeople, musicians, singers & actors, they would never admire a great thinker, writer or philosopher or even a philanthropist that was not connected to their denom.

Fountain Lakes, anyone? Lookamoi! Lookamoi!

These are the same ppl i found in my suburban high school (Hell High). If you weren’t a brilliant footy player or surfer, you didn’t exist. You were never thanked for being too intellectual or thoughtful.

The same popularity game continues in to adulthood.

You know, …we never left the sandpit, but at least we’re much smarter than we were back then ;o)

]]> By: Lionfish http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145716 Lionfish Sun, 03 Sep 2006 05:09:01 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145716 You can't address the problem until it is identified. Good comment Kevin. I see it clearly too. You can’t address the problem until it is identified.

Good comment Kevin. I see it clearly too.

]]> By: akevin http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145708 akevin Sun, 03 Sep 2006 02:04:22 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/#comment-145708 Lionfish - Thanks, i have seen it this way for about 7 years now. It has been a process of understanding for me. This is so hard to see because it has many angles. Not everyone is trying to decieve, some are really trying to do the right thing, it's just that they cannot understand what the right thing looks like, because they have never seen anything else. When we left the local AoG to start the church we decided that we did not want to manufacture, duplicate, or mimic what was happening everywhere else. Because most of it is not real, (Not God of course - He is real) - Having been in Amway 3 times I know what "fake it till you make it" is all about and it ain't about God. he hates it when I fake it. Sometimes though I can be faking it and not know that I am faking it. The biggest problem we face is that we know what we DON"T want to do we just don't always know what we DO want to do. There is really not much of a pattern to follow. This thing that Jesus said is perplexing to the business mind - "the wind bloweth where it will and you know not where it comes from - so is everyone that is born of the Spirit" People by and large want predictability in religion and life in general. NO surprises, just methodical day to day hum drum. Explorers and adventurers get rivers named after them - Most of us don't like to take off into the great unknown. Church is the great unknown - at least I think it is. We need exploreres - people to challenge mindsets and past practises - and barometers to let the explorers know when their head is in the clouds. SP does this some. I don't know a lot about emerging stuff, only what I read. it is not taking Indiana by storm. But I think it's great. I like Rob Bell for his outlook and ability to question things - some. So as we walk away from this, ( present day worldly minded church) the question becomes "what are we walking to" it's one thing to come out of Egypt, but a whole different issue to come into the promised land. How do we gwet people to identify with what is real, if you do not "dress for success" in the church world. They don't know what to look for either. It's like John the baptist (with honey in the beard, goatskin pants image) vs the Pharisee's - ( we got going on baby - check out my new Lexus success image) Peope identify with the success image church. So it becomes change us so we can change others... any way i ramble on and on. I really look for solutions though, identifying problems is easy. Lionfish - Thanks, i have seen it this way for about 7 years now. It has been a process of understanding for me. This is so hard to see because it has many angles. Not everyone is trying to decieve, some are really trying to do the right thing, it’s just that they cannot understand what the right thing looks like, because they have never seen anything else.

When we left the local AoG to start the church we decided that we did not want to manufacture, duplicate, or mimic what was happening everywhere else. Because most of it is not real, (Not God of course - He is real) - Having been in Amway 3 times I know what “fake it till you make it” is all about and it ain’t about God. he hates it when I fake it. Sometimes though I can be faking it and not know that I am faking it. The biggest problem we face is that we know what we DON”T want to do we just don’t always know what we DO want to do. There is really not much of a pattern to follow.

This thing that Jesus said is perplexing to the business mind - “the wind bloweth where it will and you know not where it comes from - so is everyone that is born of the Spirit” People by and large want predictability in religion and life in general. NO surprises, just methodical day to day hum drum. Explorers and adventurers get rivers named after them - Most of us don’t like to take off into the great unknown.

Church is the great unknown - at least I think it is. We need exploreres - people to challenge mindsets and past practises - and barometers to let the explorers know when their head is in the clouds. SP does this some. I don’t know a lot about emerging stuff, only what I read. it is not taking Indiana by storm. But I think it’s great. I like Rob Bell for his outlook and ability to question things - some.

So as we walk away from this, ( present day worldly minded church) the question becomes “what are we walking to” it’s one thing to come out of Egypt, but a whole different issue to come into the promised land.

How do we gwet people to identify with what is real, if you do not “dress for success” in the church world. They don’t know what to look for either. It’s like John the baptist (with honey in the beard, goatskin pants image) vs the Pharisee’s - ( we got going on baby - check out my new Lexus success image)

Peope identify with the success image church. So it becomes change us so we can change others… any way i ramble on and on. I really look for solutions though, identifying problems is easy.

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