church planting and/or revigorating existing churches
Over in this thread the comments have started to move into discussing the idea of whether mega-churches should “send people” to help struggling existing churches.
Bec writes:
“I think megachurches are in need of some serious self-analysis. Instead of constantly starting new things up (they’re great at starting up new churches, new street ministries, etc etc), why not support those that are already in existence? Why does Hillsong start up new things rather than support those with a long history in working with indigenous communities, or kids on the streets, or refugees? Rather than diverting funds and starting new things up, why not support the Brotherhood, or Salvos, or St Vinnies?
I suspect it’s got something to do with building empires rather than following Christ - but this is a problem in small churches too! “
and
“Or why not do what one big church in Melbourne did, and send a bunch of people down to a struggling congregation down the road to boost their numbers? Why start up a new church in a community when there already is one (of course, there are valid reasons to do this, but I suspect that most church plants haven’t really considered this…)”
then Andy remarked:
“I’m aware of both of these churches and their ‘plants’. They are good models for church renewal, especially of older, unhealthy churches. But there is a fundamental difference with this concept and the planting of churches to reach ‘unchurched’people. This model tends to create a new Christian hub of energy and activity for Christians.
The problem becomes that the presence of a critical mass of all the new Christians generally tends to stop there being a need for that group to reach outside of itself. This has been the constant struggle of these churches. Add to that the DNA of the sending church which tends to have been a bigger hub and that is what the new people take as how one ‘does church’ and this is hard to kick start into mission. “
March 15th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
My old church in Perth (Metro Church) has a thriving music ministry with some of the most exceptional talent that I have heard. I am sure that if any of these people entered Aussie Idol they would surely win.
Metro Church used to hold a conference similar to Hillsong conference in Perth up to 2 years ago. They have ended this to begin a new concept called ‘One Nights’. During these nights, which happen about once every 3 months, Metro Church invites every other church in the city to come and learn how to enhance their music ministry. There is nothing in it for Metro Church. This comes out of a desire to get the church in Perth together and share their knowledge and talent in this area. Many congregations (particularly many smaller congregations) have been blessed by this initiative.
I know that this does not resemble the outreach ministry initiatives which you are probably looking for, but it is one example.
March 15th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Would struggling existing churches want megachurch people…with their cold-hearted ‘worship-is-everything-and people-don’t-matter’ mindset……?
A megachurch-goer pays good money to contract out Christian ministry to others….so I fail to see how they’d cope with being in a smaller existing church, where they themselves might have to do something beyond applaud-tithe-sing……applaud-tithe-sing..
March 15th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
“Metro Church used to hold a conference similar to Hillsong conference in Perth up to 2 years ago. They have ended this to begin a new concept called ‘One Nights’. During these nights, which happen about once every 3 months, Metro Church invites every other church in the city to come and learn how to enhance their music ministry.”
Ahhhhhh….so that’s where the wanker worship mentality was coming from at Churchlands.
I thought it was from Rae Helen’s and the worship teams trips to Hillsong.
Well…thanks for screwing up the church in Perth …Metro Church.
Keep your wanky self-absorbed theatrics down in Northbridge please.
March 15th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
I’m mystified why other Christians don’t think of the word ‘Battersby’ and think ‘total dickhead’…and wonder how they get hooked into this bullshit.
March 15th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
This really fires me up…..because there’s been this organised ‘worship’ movement….with its own set of (wacky) theological beliefs…..’influencing’ churches, and there’s been no mechanism through which those of us who think it’s mostly bullshit…can say ….’this is mostly bullshit’.
And the choice has been to either tolerate it …or be squeezed out of church.
It’s about time a few of these ‘worship leaders’……got out of their shadows of their worship conferences, and fronted up to the rest of the Christian community..and explain upfront…exactly what they’re trying to ‘influence’ churches to be…..because to me….it seems they’re not only re-writing music..but they’re re-writing the gospel into something you have to earn by arm-waving and hitting the right note….
And it’s bullshit.
March 15th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Well now the last four posts have been expressed I hope that you feel better Lance. We are still waiting for that vision of what church could look like? Something constructive rather then destructive please mate! So can the thread start again?
Daniel, I don’t think that your example is what Phil was getting at. That is more of a ‘resourcing’ issue and has it’s own complexities for some of us to accept. Actually, it supports what I was saying at the start of the thread, where a ’strong’ church shows how it’s done to smaller churches. The reality is that the bigger the church the lesser the possibility for an incarnational presence in a community- it starts to serve its’ own needs and dominate any smaller visitors. And it carries with it a confidence that communicates, ‘this is how you do it’ which is not helpful when one is wanting to incarnate. Imagine Anglo missionaries doing that in the majority world! Talk about colonialism! Yet that’s the mindset in Western churches today.
March 15th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
“We are still waiting for that vision of what church could look like? Something constructive rather then destructive please mate!”
I keep posting it, but it keeps being ignored.
http://www.vivalarevolution.org
I’m sorry that things that really actually already exist and are proven to be doable are apparently not as good as airy-fairy visions.
March 15th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
I know what your saying Lance, even though it is partially obscured by the rude, condemning, and pompous delivery method.
I didn’t mention ‘influencing’ churches, because that is not the aim of Metro church.
Lance, if you feel a desire to be hospitable to others in order to show God’s love, but you yourself do not have good hospitality skills, would you like a Christian who is experienced in hospitality to give you pointers? To help you out? That is the same situation. Some of the smaller churches want to use contemporary music for their corporate praise times, but don’t know where to begin. This is where Metro church tries to help. They teach things such as putting lyrics to music etc. They don’t try to get churches to sing Hillsong or Metro or whatever.
Again, some of the smaller churches in Perth diligently seek to hear the voice of God in their lives, but can not. They have not received teaching or help. So once again, some people from Metro went to the smaller churches to hold workshops. All they did was pray with people. People began to respond. There was nothing in this for Metro. It was just help.
I am not the defense spokesman of Metro, I do not attend this church anymore. I don’t agree with some of the aspects of that church – but I am not it’s judge. Nor am I prophet called to open the eyes of every Christian.
So far, members of these large churches have been attacked for singing and clapping, tithing and giving, and most other practices. Some people on this blog have pretty much stripped down the large churches and said that EVERY thing that they do is wrong or unbiblical. From the teaching to the community style – everything has been attacked. There are so many good things in these Churches. They don’t do things the way you do it, but so what? Who says you are right? Are you God? Are you Gods chosen prophet? Members of the mega churches are not blind and dumb. They are not slaves of the mega church. Where is the unity? Where is the love? Why do you say MB is a dh? If you’re a Christian, that is your brother you’re talking about. God’s spirit will lead us into all truth.
What will we say before the judgment seat of God? How will we justify this jazz we talk? MB is not a dh. He is another Christian, a brother, someone who loves our Father. He is doing the best he knows to do. We all need to do the best that we can do. Why should we poison our hearts with ruthless criticism?
March 15th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Thanks Andy. I totally agree “Talk about colonialism! Yet that’s the mindset in Western churches today.”
March 15th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
It would be interesting to see Lance’s response to Daniel’s well articulated sermon (8).
March 15th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
Daniel….I’ve cast my mind back to the times I went to Metro Church…both down in Goderich St. and in Beaufort St. (although I lasted only 5 minutes in the Beaufort St service because it was just so awful).
“Again, some of the smaller churches in Perth diligently seek to hear the voice of God in their lives, but can not.”
That line really nails what the problem is….and how Metrochurch is self-deceived. Because it’s not about hearing the voice of God in their lives. It’s about arrogantly, loudly and defiantly TELLING God and others what the voice of God SHOULD be.
That is what the entire worship movement in Australia is about……arrogantly saying THIS is what you need to be doing to be ‘in God’s will’..and if you’re not singing with all your might the way WE do it…then YOU are outside God’s will…..NOT US.
But it doesn’t change the fact that Michael Battersby is a dickhead. I’ve watched him carry on.
Geoff Woodward is a wanker among wankers….
mms://www.myinternetchurch.com/SampleSermon56
In one sense…I don’t mind that these wanker and dickhead clubs operate.
Except for two conditions.
They keep to themselves…and don’t spread their toxic theology to other churches, and they have a warning to all unsuspecting newcomers, that you’ll have to accept dickhead beliefs, act like a dickhead, and not say a word about the senior pastor being a complete wanker…….if you’re to last very long in these dickhead clubs.
Fair health warnings, just like we have on cigarette packs….that’s all I’m asking for….and if these dickhead clubs are so concerned for the health and wellbeing of the community…then I would have thought they’d be only too happy to warn others of the potential dangers of becoming involved with them.
For example, if Steve knows, and he’s admitted that he knows….of the dangers associated with attending Hillsong…doesn’t he have a responsibility to warn others about that?
If you know there are problems at Metrochurch…don’t you have a responsibility to warn others how they might be damaged?
Can someone please explain to me this need to hide and cover up the hazards associated with certain churches…and keep that knowledge from potential victims of those hazards?
I will add one thing about Metrochurch.
At the Goderich St. service, there was a guy, I don’t know who it was, who led communion…and said something along the lines of…..he’d been a Christian for 40 years…and he’d realised that he was no ‘more eligible’ for salvation through Christ, than he was the first day he acknowledged the redemption won through Christ on the cross.
Clearly that statement came as a surprise to the congregation….still earning its salvation through ‘vibrant worship’.
But I can remember this communion clearly today….because it was the only aspect of the service which in any way resembled biblical teaching or the gospel of Christ…and Metrochurch quickly returned to its moronic dickheaded nonsense.
March 16th, 2006 at 9:16 am
So Lance, you’d be a big supporter of Rick Warren’s “I’ve got the intel chip to plug into every 21st century church” plan to evangelise the world.
March 16th, 2006 at 9:24 am
Lance, if that website (and church) is what you suggest then you are using a mega church (and an American one at that) as your example which TOTALLY confuses me given the weight and direction of most of your comments and attacks. Confused,
I’m bowing out of this thread until it gets back to its’ initial theme.
March 16th, 2006 at 10:11 am
Is an internet church another example of a church plant?
Can an internet church replace face-to-face church meetings?
March 16th, 2006 at 11:40 am
I know the pastors heart when it came to this project - to reach those people who physically can not come to a church. I know that My Internet Church has had hits from China and the middle-east (where face-to-face Chrisitianity is strongly discouraged).
Ofcourse an Internet Church can never replace face-to-face church meetings. It is simple a vehicle used to help begin someones spiritual journey. From there, face-to-face meetings can be encouraged.
March 16th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
My feeling on this is that we need Churches to make babies (church planting) - it is a way of releasing new energing and connecting with new people. However, we should not abandon the established church - to do so is to turn our back on the people of God. While revigorating existing churches is a tough road, I think we need to find people who are willing to take this journey on.
I think this issue is way deeper than just a music team from a big church going down the road to help out the little church. It is much more complex than this. I would like to see teams of people move completely to join and help little churches but I think it is good in theory but tough in practice from both the big church perspective and the little church persepective.
March 16th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Amen Phil.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Amen.
March 16th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Lance… as a general rule of thumb, it’s good sportsmanship to attack the ball, not the man…. (ie the doctrines and practices of a church, rather than a character assasination of the person.) What did Jesus say about he who is without sin casting the first stone?
March 16th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
As a general rule of thumb, gay people are mercilessly character assassinated by Christians.
I was in a Christian chat room yesterday..and copped it non-stop for half an hour.
Pastors will do it from the pulpit without hesitation.
Sorry, I don’t buy the double-standard.
March 16th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
I think that’s appalling too. I’m not advocating character assasination of ANYONE. I hate the attitude displayed by some fundamentalists… I don’t know if you saw the episode of “30 days” by Morgan Spurlock where a fundamentalist Christian lives in a gay community for 30 days. I was gobsmacked by the shot of a “Christian” holding up a placard: “God Hates Gays”. What the???????? The God of love and grace revealed in Christ??? What a character assasination of God!
To be honest, I’ve never met a gay man I haven’t liked. I’m really sorry so called Christians can be so self righteous… they don’t just pelt the first stone, but keep on throwing stones without mercy. I think God hates this.
Still, even though God “opposes the proud”, He still loves them… loves all people, does He not? I remember the part in “The Hiding Place” by Corrie Ten Boom where she meets one of her former concentration camp guards, and by a sheer act of the will, extends her hand in friendship after hesitating for what seemed like an eternity (She had just finished preaching a sermon on grace and forgiveness)
I think we’re all called to this high, Christ-like standard of grace. I’m not pretending I’m anywhere near achieving it, but I hope to be moving in this direction.
March 17th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
So is it right to double it Lance?
March 17th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
It’s never right to have double standards. Honestly though, I suppose the problem with a blind spot is that you don’t know you have it. If I stop to think about it, there are some sins that seem so abhorent to me (like child abuse or torture) that it pushes to the max. my understanding of the grace of God we are called to exend to others. What about justice? It’s all so complicated.
March 18th, 2006 at 10:55 am
[…] Having just expressed an innate desire to one day plant a church, there’s a very confronting post on Signposts about whether church planting is the way forward or perhaps churches should be looking at “re-invigorating” existing congregations. While the post is making the point in particular reference to “mega-churches” (a highly disparaging term in emerging church circles that no-one wants to be associated with), it forces me to consider why I believe that starting a new plant is a better model than going in and trying to rescue something else. […]
September 6th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
BARRISTER DAVID CHAMBERS
SLICITORS AND ADVOCATES
(NOTARY PUBLIC)
OF THE SUPREME CURT OF NIGERIA.
Our Ref: TOB/AT LAW/1717/2002
ADDRESS:#13 OLD CHURCH ROAD,
BENIN CITY.
Attention : Rev. David Silversides
REF: Notification of Bequest.
With gratitude to God to a life well spent and on behalf of my Late Client,Engr.Willy Bubenik, I write to notify you that my late client made you a beneficiary to the bequest sum of Seven Hundred and Fifty Thousand United States Dollars (USD 750,000.00) in the Last Codicil to his last WILL and Testament of the year 2000. Late Engr.Willy Bubenik died in a Fatal plane crash in kano, northern Nigeria, on the 4th of may 2002. The following websites could be referenced:
http://www.usafricaonline.com/ngrkanocrash.html
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/05/05/stories/2002050503070101.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1968616.stm
Until his death, Late Engr.Willy Bubenik was a Regional Director in Nigeria with United Nations Refugees and humanitarian commission.A renowned PHILANTHROPIST, who has widely travelled and very good Christian of the Christian fellowship of Nigeria. A non denominational society.
According to him, he is giving you this amount because of your active involvement in the upliftment of Christian activities with your ministries and making better the world situation for the acceptance of Christian religion in Christ Jesus as the son of God.
We the executors and trustees of this WILL,i wish to inform you that the WILL was read at the Owerri High Court probate Division on the 5th June 2002 as the law provides in section (52) sub-section 3&4 of the Nigeria constitution and is now ready for execution.
You are therefore required by this notification to confirm your ownership to this legacy by forwarding to us immediately via e-mail, your current telephone, e-mail and fax number (private) for easy communication and prompt payment without delay. Your contact address (private) is also required for verification and authentication of the WILL as the law stipulated. A photocopy of your international passport if available shall be required from you on the day of your payment.This is to avoid paying to a wrong beneficiary.
We shall detail you on the procedure involved in executing this will upon the receipt of your prompt e-mail response.
We are sorry for not notifying you by posted mail due to the urgency required in this matter and also your e-mail contact was given to us by the wife of my late client.
Thanks and God bless.
Regards,
BARR. CARL DAVID
E-mail;william(david_lawchambers@yahoo.co.uk )
Fax;234-803-7558947.