Women and the emerging church
Steve Taylor at Emerging Kiwi has posted a podcast interview with Jenny McIntosh from Spirited Exchanges.
It raises three issues in regard to women and the emerging church:
“We identify three ways in which the emerging church can exclude women;
- in the way the Bible is used
- in not seeking representation in speaking and in leadership
- in continuing a “culture”, patterns of being and talking, that are male in nature.”
I still don’t think the discussion went specific enough on the issue of culture. I had a hint that Steve felt so too when he said he was feeling disempowered. So, I would be interested in knowing what people think about how we can advance the cause of women in the emerging church. What can leaders of local faith communities do? What can leaders of denominations do? What will it take?
This is not the thread for allocating blame or even saying aha that is what I am talking about - but rather for discussions on ways forward.
You can download the podcast - women and the emerging church here
April 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pm
If you want anything written by women try New Idea, Womans Day, Cleo,
Cosmopolitan. It seems that women are more interested in that sort of stuff
with the huge publications.
Maybe the emerging church is trying to “push” women into areas where they dont feel comfortable
April 1st, 2006 at 3:42 pm
another brilliant comment from ned…
April 1st, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Ned
I am so impressed that you are a regular reader of Cosmo . You may like to share ( such a Christian word) on your favourite section .
April 1st, 2006 at 5:01 pm
I know, he clearly knows more about those mags than I do! I’m betting he’d like the sealed section.
April 1st, 2006 at 5:17 pm
I believe the sealed section might be out of vogue these days - maybe the dating and relationship section - Ned can you give us some tips ? And I hope we are not pushing you into areas that you don’t feel comfortable in .
April 1st, 2006 at 5:36 pm
I always read Cosmo, its really good to here what women really care about, and want to talk about. It really helps me in my relationship with my wife.
the rev
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:35 pm
It’s my observation that women (often!!) are braver and more courageous (esp socially) so they just get out and BE and DO whilst their beloveds get together in conferences and talk some more.
Guys love understanding stuff. Books are written so blokes can prove how much they know.
Women tend to spend the time that should be used for writing by getting out and helping people with unimportant drivillish stuff like meals, accom, relationship, coordinating events, supporting friends, getting to know neighbours…
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:41 pm
I like Oprah
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:09 pm
I’m going to go out on a really embarassing limb here and confess that, in those hazy exhausted days of newborns and breastfeeding two hourly at all times of the day and night… I actually got more out of the “Oprah” show than I did out of church (where I was generally hiding up the back keeping a baby quiet.) She gave the message a woman needs to look after herself… do some self care… develop a life of gratitude rather than negativity and self pity… work on her friendships and relationships… “If momma ain’t happy, no-one’s happy”. And another shameful confession… in the bizarre semi nocturnal baby lifestyle, Joyce Meyer (4 am) reminded me that God has a calling and a destiny for me (ignore the prosperity doctrine bits, and she’s a straight talker on the bible and on life).
I never watch these shows now my children are older, but to me they’re proof you don’t have to have to be perfect… or a Christian… or doctrinally sound… to be a messenger of grace.
April 3rd, 2006 at 2:30 am
Phil Baker’s Revenue Church has hot style tips for women.
http://www.riverviewchurch.com.au/newsletter/edition/5/27/a258.html
“STYLEFILE with Jemma Madden
Lately I’ve noticed that tie-die is creeping back in for summer! Personally it’s not my favourite fashion trend from the 60’s but it’s definitely fun to make! You can pretty much tie-die anything, pillow cases, gypsy styled skirts, tops, pants……but I really like tie-died bathers! It’s really easy and they’re fun to wear! All you need is some fabric dye, a laundry tub or bucket, water, rubber bands and some plain coloured bathers (which you can get pretty cheap from Target)
1. O.k. To start with you need to fill the bucket or tub with about 5cm of warm water and pour in the sachet of dye and let it soak for about 15 minutes. You can buy the coloured die from Spotlight or any other craft store!
2. Now bunch up the fabric in the bathers and tie rubber bands around the little bunches and that will determine where the circles of the tie-dye will be. For example you could tie several rubber bands around the one bunch and create more of a kaleidiscope effect. REMEMBER: always tie the bands really tight otherwise the dye will run
3. You only want to submerse the bunches into the dye, unless you want the whole bikini to be the colour of the dye, then you can put the whole thing in.
4. Now you just have to be patient and wait for about an hour to an hour and a half to let the dye set in.
Yay, go team….now you have some hot bathers to swim in!
If you want to get creative try starting with plain white bathers and build up colour, so the first big bunch may be blue, then you let that dry and repeat the process with orange and yellow, creating different coloured circles using the rubber bands! Have fun and God bless,
luv Jem”
It also hides those ungodly skid marks.
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:30 am
For once I’m left without words… hot bathers for Jesus? Ministry amongst women has come to this. Sigh.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:27 pm
There were far too many exclamation marks in that article.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:23 pm
When shuold we males start tie dyeing our speedos - or as they are someteims called - budgey smugglers
April 3rd, 2006 at 4:40 pm
We always called them “meat hangers”
April 3rd, 2006 at 4:44 pm
I’m not sure much is happening in this thread that suggests a way forward for empowering women… and men… in leadership, fascinating as the tie dyed bathers theme may be. I think the “keynote speaker” thing keeps being raised because of the power of role models in impacting emerging leaders. I think mentoring is important… and at the risk of sounding sexist, some events for women where issues for women in leadership can be explored, and women doing some great ministry can have a chance to talk with other women.
But I may be biased… my paid work (and voluntary work) involves organising women mentors and leadership events for women!
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Even though I recognise some weaknesses in HS this thread is about women etc.
We must give credit to HS that it releases so many women into leadership areas that was once closed to them.
Think of HS and its Colour conference impacting 1000’s of women.
There are women leaders from HS who are now worldwide names.
Will we give them some credit for this or do we just see the negatives.
I am not HS or AOG. I want to chew the meat and spit out the bones.
April 4th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
hmmm…Ned, I certainly take your point. HS certainly does do a decent job of getting women up on stage.
Thing is, I struggle to see how the ultra-girly portrayal of womanhood that they perpetuate is so empowering. There’s a lot there - both expressed and implied (ie pictures, over-use of pink!) - that says that women should be pretty, wear makeup, have long hair, etc etc.
Yep, there are women from HS who are worldwide names. No matter how hard I try, however, I am never going to be blonde, busty, and cutesy. That is just not who I am or how God made me. I find the image of womanhood put out by HS thoroughly disempowering.
I also know several women who go to HS and related churches who feel exactly the same way.
April 4th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Awe come on bec, with a bit of bleach and a good surgeon you could be one of those barbie dolls. And just pretend to be about fifty IQ points short, that is what we blokes consider cute. Oh and please read Mrs Houstons new book on good sex, its called:
PornAgain,
“a nip and tuck guide to Pamela Anderson style sex, within a Godly heterosexual marriage relationship.”
the rev
April 4th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
heh heh…Do you know, in high school, one of the other girls said “you know Bec, you just need to pretend to be dumber…then all the boys will like you”…muhahahahahahahaaa!!
There isn’t really a book by that title is there? :O
April 4th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Bec,
My experience and its a bit dated now of Hillsong is that they sent out rather contradictionary messages to women . Yes they did promote women into leadership positions and I knew many intelligent committed women when I attended there . The girly thing seems to have been a recent happening .
I would be interested in hearing from anybody else who used to attend there - I will give some examples at a later stage
April 5th, 2006 at 7:28 am
no, just me being funny, or attempting to.
the rev
April 5th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Rev - I was about to google the bookname to see if I could get it through Koorong… would have made my employers somewhat interested (had I done so) with (what would predictably be) the results!
The way we do ‘church’ (the sunday big meeting variety that is) is generally suited to males. It’s all about ‘I will speak, you will listen’. Blokes like being listened to, and they did it in Jesus day, so it must be right.
Discussion based (dialogue instead of monologue) teaching sessions encourages a broader range ideas, but also an opportunity for people to say ‘I don’t get it - please say it again, but different’.
Conventional leadership models seem to be very male, and the women who do well in them do so because they don’t get daunted - they just adapt to the model, get all ’strong and empowered’ and go for it. I’m not sure tho, that this is the best (or most inclusive) leadership (up front) model to be encouraging… I believe that we will have a greater range of leaders when we acknowledge the strength and depth of different leadership styles.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Every church I have been involved with in the last ten years was discussion group oriented, but not everything works as well that way, sometimes you need a more lecture oriented approach.
the rev
April 7th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
Toddy, you say that traditional models of church are male oriented because they are about “I will speak and you will listen”. To my mind, this just means that they cater for male leaders. But what about those that are doing the listening? In many traditional churches you have a disproportionately large number of men in leadership and a disproportionately large number of women in the pews. So who is the service catering for then?
April 7th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
Good point. It is catering to tradional (unbalanced) gender roles. It teaches further that ‘men will speak, women will listen’. It caters further to the unbalanced approach of ‘leader with charisma is better’ mindset, which (usually) means that there is precious little discussion or uncertainty. Of course, life is full of uncertainty - except in churches! (or businesses with a charismatic CEO, but that link scares me even more!)
Too often, I see weak male leaders leading strong decisive women because of their gender. Also, I see wise, but far more softly spoken women (and men for that matter!!) absolutely ignored because they can’t excite a room full of people with a monologue. Should this model be disbanded altogether? Probably not - but we should look to flesh out various other leadership models. Does that work better Dan?
April 7th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
It exists in Christian NGOs too.
April 7th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
I often feel like the feminist movement was the 1st part of a necessary job. It dragged women out of the dark, and made men sit up and notice. However, a divide still exists in terms of opportunities and appreciation will not be crossed using the feminist mindset of ‘c’mon girls - lets grab it’. The next phase (IMO) needs to be that of men realising they’ve been prats and offering the power, position and advantages up to women with no obligations, no strings.
Men are still (usually) priviliged, and it will take a huge growth of heart and confidence in themselves to loosen their/our grip on it.
April 8th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Dan’s comment is interesting. May I suggest an essay question?
“Developing contextualised models of church suited for “unchurched” males is a bigger challenge for the Australian church than empowering women for leadership. Discuss.”
April 9th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
Was at the melbourne town hall this afternoon to hear jim wallis and the micah challenge;interested to see that all,with one exception, who asked questions,were women. Wonder as wallis talked about the challenge of the “big stuff” it was women, who saw the point,or the fact that it was women who were handing out microphones!
April 10th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Janet I wonder whether or not it should be for “churched males”.I’ve been discussing with a male army chaplain the lack of female chaplains.He tells me they’re keen to recruit women but cant find them.
Have you heard that argument before?
The male chaplains who organise themselves dont seem to make any connection between this failure and the
*250%increase in complaints of sexual abuse in the ADF
*findings of the Ombudsman scathing report on how the ADF treats its young members
*the devasting conclusions of the Senate inquiry into military justice
*case after case of female ADF officers who have been brutalised by the ADF system(one such officer had her 2 children assaulted by another officer(male)and she was forced to resign!
*8 govt inquiries over a decade which have found “glaring inadequacies”in the way the ADF administers internal discipline.
Why would any women (and in fact anyone) wish to join the ADF? Men,in this case male chaplains,are bit like Vaille/Downer , they cant “join the dots”!