the tradition of women and church leadership
Ana Gobledale (via Janet Woodlock) sent in this article to aid our continuing discussion about the role of women in the Church –
The real tradition of women and church leadership by Sandra Dufield
SojoMail 1-25-2006In claiming church tradition doesn’t allow women to be ordained
priests, Vatican and Catholic officials would do well to consider the
history of their tradition.According to Dorothy Irvin, a Catholic theologian and archaeologist,
the traditional Christian church had women priests and the
archaeological evidence of this is preserved for us to see today.
Read the rest of the article at sojourners here
March 20th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Women should be given equal rights in church regardless of the historic discoveries.
Best
March 27th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Well in the bible men are the strong ones who carry out God’s will and apparently it is the head of the family (the husband) who is accountable to God for what happens within his household. while females are represented by Wisdom. Sometimes I find Jesus kind of ignores females and choses 12 men to be His disciples…..either He is protecting women from persecution or He thinks they are incapable - I am not really sure.
I am currently studying at the Bible College, and actually, I wonder if it is even worth the effort, because of the small (often hidden) role women play in the church. But even as I would like to see more female pastors, when I go to a church with a female as a pastor, I can’t seem to be comfortable with this idea.
March 27th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
What Bible College are you studying at Frances?
I hope they encourage you to continue. We need more female pastors/ministers/leaders. Perhaps a look at the early church and the place of woment in leadership would be worth a look. Also, it would be worth remembering that women are often placed with a sense of scandal at the heart of the gospel story. It the women indeed who discover that Jesus is not in the tomb, as all the so-called “strong” men had run away scared.
March 27th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Hi Phil,
Thanks for your encouraging words - with regards to the women finding the tomb empty and going off to let the others know. I am studying at the Bible College of Victoria. I feel God has called me to ministry and church leading although truth be told, I feel really overwhelmed with such a calling.
March 27th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
“Jesus kind of ignores females and choses 12 men to be His disciples…..either He is protecting women from persecution or He thinks they are incapable.”
Or he is symbolicly creating a new kingdom with 12 men who match the 12 sons of Jacob/ tribes of Israel.
March 27th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Nigel,
obviously you don’t understand the way God operates, God always upholds the cultural biases of people, even when they are unjust and stupid. It is just the natural order of HIS creation.
the rev
March 27th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Also Frances - it is worth pointiung out that It was teh woman at the well - the Syrophoneacion woman who went into her village after her encounter with Jesus - and teh whole village listened to her and her testimony was what won the entire town over to Jesus - the so called new kingdom of 12 men (you crack me up nigel) couldn’t even look past their own stomachs to see that Jesus was the river of living water. It was constantly women who got the message first even Paul (the so called mysoginist) felt equality with his co-workers Euodia and Syntyche who he even puts at te same level as Clement (whom many scholars believe to be te early church patriarch)
Philipians 4:2-3
I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. 3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow,[a] help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Women have been placed in the shadows for far too long and it is time for more to come out and take up the yoke of leadership alongside other fellow workers in the cause of the gospel.
Frances, is that uncomfortable feeling you get when in a church led by a woman social conditioning caused by male centred leadership for hundreds and hundreds of years? I worhsip at a church where our recotr is femal and I ahve never gotten so much from one leader as I have from her - Viva la feminista - God for gold Frances
March 27th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Go for gold is what I meant!
March 27th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
….and one of those would betray Him? He would still chose one traitor who is male over one totally loyal female disciple who would never betray Him????
I understand what you are saying, but He could have given females a bit more representation….
Sometimes, I take this a bit personally and feel that even Christianity can be used as an excuse for justifying the subordination of women. For His time, Jesus was the first ever egalitarian - treating men and women fairly equally in everything except in chosing the 12. But then we had the female revolution - mostly because men were not listening to Jesus’ example - and women didn’t feel respected or honoured by the men in their lives. Modern times are different so I wonder if Jesus’ ministry would have been different if He was here now instead of then. Fundamentally alot of things have not changed since then - we still have Pharissees and Saduccees (legalistic Christians proclaiming rules but missing the whole point of what it means to be Christian), we still have the rich taking advantage of the poor (tax collectors) etc.
No, I don’t have anything against men. It just seems that many men like to say - oh sorry females can’t be pastors b/c it even says this in the bible and I deep down believe Jesus would have been much happier having females who sincerely and cheerfully wanted to spread His word but that the cultural mileu of the time would not allow for it! Jesus already was quite radical and creating quite a stir in those days and He was already pushing all the limits of human understanding for those days - but since then the situation for females has improved.
March 27th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Hi Greg:
Maybe the idea of feeling uncomfortable with a female pastor is a response to social conditioning.
I am single but I wonder how a potential suitor would feel about his wife being a pastor…guys what do you think? It just seems more natural to support a husband who is a pastor rather than a woman being a pastor with a man who supports her.
We can be our own worst enemies, can’t we???
Thanks for your insightful responses.
Cheers
March 27th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
My recotrs husband loves the fact that she is a recot and is very supportive - I personally would love to be married to a pastor/rector/priest if that is what my wife was called to do. IF you wanted to talk to her you could ring Holy Family Anglican Churhc in Wyoming (Central Coast not America) and she would be more than happy to talk with you - Ray her husband would love to talk to you about how he supports Rosemary.
Also you say “I am single but I wonder how a potential suitor would feel about his wife being a pastor…guys what do you think? ” tell us the truth - you were looking for a christian matchmaker site and stumbled on us by accident didn’t you?
Don;t worry - I was looking for a stick to put a message up on and came here!
March 27th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Hi Greg,
No that is not the case…It’s just a thought that surfaced as I was reading posts and responding…Sheesh - we are not all that shallow!!!!
I am out in Australia actually. So I can’t exactly ring up the Holy Family Anglican Church in Wyoming - well I could but imagine the bill LOL
March 27th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Or how about a male minister who supports his wife in her work?
Or a female minister who suuports her husband in his?
What is the difference?
March 27th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
“I feel God has called me to ministry and church leading although truth be told, I feel really overwhelmed with such a calling.”
Frances, you’re in good company. Moses wasn’t champing at the bit to do what God called him to do. Jeremiah wasn’t thrilled. Isaiah thought his sinfulness left him unqualified. Gideon gave a string of excuses when God called him. Before his suffering and death even Jesus said: “if possible, take this cup away from me… but not my will, but yours be done.”
In my opinion… only those with serious ego problems and a lurking “Messiah complex” think a call to Christian vocational leadership is a sensible career choice. If you feel overwhelmed, you just might have the measure of humility and dependence on God to qualify you for spiritual leadership.
Stick at it for the sake of obedience, nothing else. God honors those who obey wholeheartedly. If others don’t like what you do when obeying God… the beatitudes say to rejoice anyway.
As for some “potential suitors” being threatened or uncomfortable… I think it’s a really bad idea to pair up with a man who is threatened by competent women, especially if you have a leadership vocation. There are plenty of men who love strong women… give the others a wide berth. You don’t want to spend 50 years living with someone who (even unconsciously) blocks your calling in Christ.
As for not feeling comfortable with a woman in leadership… research shows that people become very comfortable with this if exposed to enough ministry by competent women… their theological questions seem automatically resolved by their experience of women in ministry. It’s a bit like the first time a male nurse shows up to change your dressing in the hospital… it feels a little weird at first, but you soon get used to it. It’s just conditioning.
March 27th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
hey frances,
i do hope you will follow the hint of possibility as far as it goes… what a fabulous adventure.
the bible is full of gutsy women who led in a very different way to most of the men, but who managed, just as powerfully, to bring about a glimpse of the realm of God.
if you have access (perhaps in a theological library you have access to??), have a look at the book “Women around Jesus”, written by Elisabeth Moltmann-Wendel (she’s married to Jurgen Moltmann, who wrote “the Crucified God” and a stack of other books… i say that not to validate her, but to put her into a context! i always talk about jurgen moltmann as being married to Elisabeth too). it offers a very different perspective of women’s leadership and place in the story of Jesus to the one most of us have been told about.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:35 am
[…] The Real Tradition of Women and Church Leadership HT […]
March 28th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Women have been bashed (literally and metaphorically) by so many aspects of history, culture, church, etc - THIS IS NOT WHAT GOD INTENDED WHEN HE MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE!!
Just because we got it wrong before, doesn’t mean we need to keep getting it wrong!
Jesus did far more with women than anyone else of His time (or the previoius 2000yrs for that matter!!) because He values them; not as women, but as people capable of carrying forth His mission wherever they are!
There’s a lot we need to look at in our local culture as to how we get the male/female balance thing, but we must never allow ourselves to slip back into the kind of oppression mindset that has dogged us since the Garden of Eden fiasco.
March 28th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Janet said - “As for some “potential suitors” being threatened or uncomfortable… I think it’s a really bad idea to pair up with a man who is threatened by competent women, especially if you have a leadership vocation. There are plenty of men who love strong women… give the others a wide berth. You don’t want to spend 50 years living with someone who (even unconsciously) blocks your calling in Christ.”
Frances, I just couldn’t agree with this more. A suitor who’s threatened or uncomfortable by a partner who’s thinking about or in ministry is going to be threatened by many other things as well. A bloke that’s threatened by or uncomfortable with a woman in ministry is really uncomfortable about or threatened by women having leadership characteristics. It’ll catch up with you sooner or later.
There’s stacks of women in Melbourne you could talk about this too…
March 28th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
Janet said - “As for some “potential suitors” being threatened or uncomfortable… I think it’s a really bad idea to pair up with a man who is threatened by competent women, especially if you have a leadership vocation. There are plenty of men who love strong women… give the others a wide berth. You don’t want to spend 50 years living with someone who (even unconsciously) blocks your calling in Christ.”
As a boy, I agree with this. There are a lot of men with fragile little egos (myself included) who would make really atrocious spouses, especially for someone with a call to ministry.
If you believe that God has called you into that kind of ministry, then you can also trust that God will be looking out for you in the marriage department. I don’t believe that he calls you to a life of ministry just to scupper your relationship prospects.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Dave, there is hope for you… at least you’re aware of your potential to be an atrocious spouse. Some men, especially of an older generation, seem to feel it’s their divine right to be physically and emotionally dependent on their wives for life… and will very actively block anything their wives try to do that might interfere with their wife’s production of meals, clean ironed shirts etc. etc. Others attempt to boycott any achievements that (in their mind) will make their wives seem “better” than themselves… eg getting a degree, or a better paid job etc. It’s mercifully dying out… slowly.
You can grow in independence, in emotional security, in the capacity to cheer on the achievements of others, in the ability to empathise, in unselfishness. You’ll be a better spouse, a better Christian, a better person.
Unless you’re 50 and living at home with mum. Then there really is little hope.
March 30th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Haha…cheers Janet. I moved out of home when I was 17, so we’ll see how I go!
March 30th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Left home at 17… and you have a sense of humour… I think the claim you’d make a “really atrocious spouse” must be seriously questioned. (There’s room for us all to grow in grace of course.)
It seems to me (if you’ll excuse my generalisation, and my understanding there are many exceptions) men and women often choose “atrocious spouses” for quite different reasons. A relative of mine chose a really unsuitable spouse because she was a “looker” and the sex was great. Young women seem very vulnerable to men who know how to give attention and affirmation… they have this hunger to be treasured, for affirmation, for intimacy… I’ve seen some girls rush into relationships the first time they get a sense of this from a man. I think I could easily have ended up with a fifth rate spouse… better luck (and grace) than management that I’m married to someone so adorable.
March 30th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
If I get a sex change into a woman - will I be accepted by women to minister at female events.
Will I be allowed to use female toilets???
March 30th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Imagine the intro before you speak:
“…and so ladies, after that lovely devonshire tea, we now warmly welcome our keynote speaker who will address us regarding God’s view of the menopause, and how you can be a mega-overcoming victorious proverbs wife into this season of your life. Ladies, please welcome MRS Ned Flanders…”
I dunno Ned - can’t really see it myself…
March 31st, 2006 at 9:31 am
If you ge a sex change ned…well, children might read this post so i better not write what on my mind!!!! grrrrr like a tiger
March 31st, 2006 at 10:19 am
Lord, have mercy. Ned, I don’t think you could cut it as a chick. I would let you use the women’s toilets, but sincerely hope I’ll never be put to the test.
Is there any chance we could have a chicks only blog to discuss this stuff? Just one? Please? Any interest out there girls? Now don’t cry discrimination boys… I’m more than happy for you to have a blokes only blog on an issue dear to your male hearts.
March 31st, 2006 at 11:43 am
Hey Janet, you are catching the blogging bug - why don’t you start one of your own? Try http://www.blogger.com
March 31st, 2006 at 11:56 am
beer…and foxtel
March 31st, 2006 at 3:15 pm
Dan, I fear I have an addictive personality… once I start I may never stop. My husband will have to join a support group for internet widowers, my children will suffer emotional neglect… I seem to be playing catch up on my various ministry hats as it is… but I’ll keep the blog invitation in mind for when I have a bit more space in my life.
Back to the sermon on contextualisation!
March 31st, 2006 at 3:25 pm
but what about the beer and foxtel? Please someone (not me) help out a poor fella