hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
August 15th, 2007 at 4:10 am
slightly.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:27 am
how about profoundly??
August 16th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Reve
I think of Danny Guglielmucci who has always been there amongst others to encourage and support me towards my God-given purpose.
that was written by Zerner in 2006
i wonder if it would sound the same after Danny came over to sack zerners wife from the pastoral team
Zerner took over Gosford CLC (later calling it coastlife) and was the flavour of the moment but mistakenly started to bag out the previous pastor (Kevin Brett - the guy whose lack of discretion cost me my first marriage) to allcommers in an effort to bignote himself… however Kevin Brett and Brian Houstan are like brothers.. so he became persona nongratia.. he was also ripping staff off (secretaries earning $250 per week for 6 days and nights catching the vision) whilst he was earning approx $130 000.00 pa (him and wife combined) but he was only in the office/church 2 days per week inc sunday…
August 16th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Google searches indicate that Kevin Brett is now a pastor (associate?) at Hillsong. Can anyone confirm this?
Abtruth,
Very sorry to hear that.
August 16th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
BTW
I had a read of the coastlife website and had a real sense of deja vu.
Under the tab, ‘Teaching - A Guide To Discerning God’s Will’, I expected to read something on this subject. Instead, it’s all about making a financial commitment to their latest building fund/debt reduction programme, with the focus (elsewhere on the site) on ‘Miracle Offering Sunday’, which apparently occurred on June 24…I think that’s when all the commitments were collected.
Interesting to see that the ‘not equal giving, but equal sacrifice’ mantra still applies.
Couldn’t help noticing how people are encouraged to take time to pray about their sacrificial cash and/or kind commitment. The way it’s written puts the onus of responsibility on the giver, just in case they find themselves unable to fulfill their commitment down the track. Although in the ‘Commonly Asked Questions’ section, people are able to revise their commitment ‘at any time over the 12 months’.
I can’t help but remember the pressure we were under to get with this style of fundraising program back in the 80’s, especially if you were in leadership.
Too many people have been burnt in the past by similar programmes, or worse.
When they say that a giver is able to revise their commitment, does that include revising it down to nil, if the giver needs or wants to?
August 16th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Well I guess it would, but it would also be interesting to see what happened after you did!
No more 100 or 500 clubs etc etc for you!! Get to the end of the line.
August 16th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Kevin Brett…yes he’s at Hillsong.
in my time there, he was touted as the ‘pastor’s pastor’ there to make sure they didn’t burn out.
His wife, marylin, was principal of the College at the Hills.
August 16th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Thanks emblazoned..
and yes Daisy, you’d risk you’re A league status, that’s for sure.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:27 am
*****EXCLUSIVE CUB REPORT******
Subtitle : HILLSONG SYNDROME
You heard it here first!
Smithus & i attended “Conversations with the Author” amongst about 50 or so others in Glebe last night for Tanya Levin’s book “People in Glass Houses”.
Being Signposters, Little was said that we didn’t already know about, but one thing that Tanya said caught my interest & i cornered her about it & questioned her afterwards….
It turns out, according to her, that more than one Counsellor / Psychologist is seeing patients in the North-West area of Sydney & reporting a condition they are loosely terming “Hillsong Syndrome”.
Now, you’re not going to find this condition listed in the DSM IV ……..yet. It is however, according to Tanya, a range of symptoms from people who already suffer from pre-existing mental disorders/mood disorders driven to the point of psychosis…..& sometimes suicide, because they have recieved direct or indirect teaching that their illness is a matter of faith or spiritual wellness or “being right with God” to people who are simply having breakdowns because their social lives or marriages have been destroyed after needing to leave the church for one reason or another.
This catching your interest Emblazoned? Geoff? Singer?
Now before anyone gets carried away with this, Tanya has said that she has been unable to get any of these therapists to go on record with this (she had contact with them for the purposes of the book), but privately, more than one of them has said that this is defintely the case, & they have defintely given it the interim title “Hillsong Syndrome”.
There you have it…something to watch for the future….
August 17th, 2007 at 10:35 am
She also mentioned the symptoms could be very similar to PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) but not exactly the same. The definition will no doubt become refined if the issue becames more recognised.
If i’ve got any of the information slightly incorrect Tanya may come on to SP’s to clarify anyone’s questions in the midst of her busy book-touring schedule…..
August 17th, 2007 at 11:08 am
The Australian Medical Association’s national or NSW spokesperson could probably address the issue …if individual psychologists are reluctant to go on the record.
August 17th, 2007 at 11:09 am
And speaking from experience…it seems very similar to what people go through after involvement with Christian ‘ex-gay’ programs.
August 17th, 2007 at 11:11 am
Abtruth,
Would K. Brett have been the Senior Pastor at Gosford CLC (now Coastlife) in the early 90’s when Anthony Venn-Brown had to make his adultery confession in front of his family & the whole congregation?
And can anyone advise if there was ever any AOG directive that churches should re-brand & get rid of the “CLC” (Christian Life Centre) name & why that would have been? Clearly it wasn’t just Hillsong.
I have also noticed a tendency of the AOG distancing itself from activities that occurred before the re-branding, for instance / example : “Anthony Venn Brown was a visting evangelist for Hills CLC never Hillsong in it’s current form” as was posted on the HS website months ago.
Is this a deliberate & strategic separation of eras & is the reason for it as simple as removing the word “Christian” to become more comtemporary & widely applicable?
Anybody care to comment?
August 17th, 2007 at 11:19 am
[…] From http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/04/10/hillsongs-the-next-installment/#comment-176694 […]
August 17th, 2007 at 11:23 am
“Anthony Venn Brown was a visting evangelist for Hills CLC never Hillsong in it’s current form”
I think it’s a bit like 2WS-FM saying that they’re not responsible for anything that happened while they were known as 2WS.
August 17th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
I thought the CLC, CCC, AOG joined together recently to become ACC - Australian Christian Churches. The AOG and HS in its current incarnation or former incarnations have always had close links. This is my understanding of the linkages if that helps but I am sure others may a much more well informed grip on this.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
reve… yes he was.. on my phone pda thingy at the moment… you may want to contact me through my blog http://www.jesusloveswhitetrash.blogspot.com
August 17th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
CLC has always been under the AOG. ACC was a network of different churches and movements, such as AOG, COC, Apostolic, and a number of Independent churches, but has since been disbanded and reformed as an alternative name for AOG churches only. CCC was never a part of ACC, and still isn’t.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Correction…
Facelift you said:
“CLC has always been under the AOG. ACC was a network of different churches and movements, such as AOG, COC, Apostolic, and a number of Independent churches, but has since been disbanded and reformed as an alternative name for AOG churches only. CCC was never a part of ACC, and still isn’t”.
CLC (or Christian Life Centre) was the brand begun by Frank Houston. Due to a disagreement, with the AOG, CLC (under FH) split from the AOG but were subsequently persuaded to return.
COC were never part of ACC.
ACC was a backdoor attempt by BH to change the name of the AOG back in the 90’s - it failed then, but he finally had his way at the recent national conference.
August 18th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
A minor correction - Frank Houston was an AOG minister in New Zealand but his original church Christian Life Centre in Sydney did not become part of the Assemblies of God for some years . There was a lot of suspicion about his church style at a time when most Assemblies of God churches were very conservative .
August 29th, 2007 at 6:53 am
well I can’t let the 1st of September come around without thanking signposts for this thread which has helped me immensely during the last few years as I have read stories from other ex hillsong devotees. When I first started reading it I couldn’t believe how people were talking about my old friends, or rather, I was quite shocked to read other’s words which actually put into writing what I had been feeling and understanding for a while in my solitary and lonely walk.
Then I began to have the liberating feeling of writing my own tiny story a bit which helped me to feel much more confident in my own spiritual choices. Confidence is the word I would use to describe what I have regained since growing on from hs. I had forgotten that I am actually good at some things, my life has a significance unconnected with any church, my years are too precious to waste in an indulgent family corporation which cares nothing for my welfare or MY family’s future. I knew Jesus long before I knew hs and it’s all encompassing mind trap, and I’ll be with him long after noone remembers hs.
Maybe I’ll be there on the day that God asks brian houston about my wife, ‘why did you do that to her?, she loved you and was totally devoted and loyal to you, she prayed for you every day and guarded your back a thousand times. She turned your failing business into a force and yet you belittled her and stole her self esteem and confidence. What have you to say? Maybe it won’t be like that, and after all we all will stand and give an account…sobering thoughts
So goodbye ‘hillsongs the next instalment’ you’ve been good and very interesting, also very funny at times. Thank you and goodnight
August 29th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Here is the latest on Paula and Randy Whites d-i-v-o-r-c-e.
Lionfish - note the way Randy makes his money, what else, REAL ESTATE,
TAMPA - Randy and Paula White, the founders and co-pastors of what has been one of the nation’s biggest and fastest-growing churches, plan to divorce.
Members of Without Walls International Church reacted with tears and a chorus of “Oh, no’s” after the Whites’ announcement at Thursday night’s service.
Randy White called Paula White to the podium about an hour into the service. He was somber; she appeared choked up.
“It’s the most difficult decision I’ve ever had to make in my entire life,” he told the congregation, describing her as an exceptional woman, mother and preacher.
She pledged to return frequently to preach.
Viewers who tuned in to a live webcast of the service missed the announcement; the video and audio were cut off for about 10 minutes.
The most shaken members left the service and went into the entryway to cry or call loved ones. Most said the news came as a shock, but it didn’t shake their faith in the ministry.
“It’s like hearing the news from your parents,” said Frank Murillo, who has attended the church for 10 years. “They are great people. We all go through stuff. Pastor Randy will be here, and I will be here.”
Kerran Fuller has attended the church on and off since the beginning of the year.
The announcement “didn’t weaken the church in anyway,” he said after the service. “I’ll definitely keep going.”
The Whites, who’ve been married nearly 18 years, said in interviews that the split is amicable and comes after visits to counselors over several years.
They blame two lives going in different directions.
Randy White, however, said he takes “100 percent responsibility” for the breakup.
“I want to apologize for the poor decisions I’ve made in my life, to my congregation and to the body of Christ,” he told The Tampa Tribune. “I think I’ve let a lot of people down.”
Those regrets, he said, include how he has treated some people, lifestyle changes and being seen in public with women other than his wife, even if it was innocent.
They both said the split involves no third party on either side.
He will stay at Without Walls as senior pastor while she concentrates on her ministry, which includes a TV show broadcast on several national networks including Black Entertainment Television, conferences, and book and video sales.
She’ll remain based in Tampa, with satellite operations in California, New York City and San Antonio.
Church attendance “will take a hit” from the news, he predicted. Without Walls reports having 23,000 members.
Its finances also will be affected: her ministry brings in about $50,000 to $80,000 a week, he said. An audit put total church revenues at nearly $40 million last year.
Individual Pursuits
Although she will continue to financially support the church, the Whites are in the process of separating operations.
The couple have pursued individual goals in recent months, rarely preaching together at the church on North Grady Avenue near Raymond James Stadium. They’ve also had to deal with the illness of Randy White’s adult daughter, who was diagnosed with a brain tumor in December.
Paula White 41, is frequently on the road for her for-profit and nonprofit ventures. One of those, Paula White Enterprises, changed earlier this year when Randy White was removed as a director, according to Department of State records. In February, she created a new nonprofit, PWM Lifecenter, listing as directors herself, church CFO Norva Carrington, and Rick Hawkins, founding pastor of the Family Praise Center in San Antonio.
She has made many speaking trips recently to San Antonio and this month purchased a $681,000 home there. She serves as “oversight pastor” to Hawkins’ son Dustin, who now leads the church.
She also frequently travels to New York, where she has a Trump Tower condo and leads monthly services at her new Life by Design Empowerment Center.
Randy White, 49, has spent several months commuting to Malibu, Calif., where he signed a one-year lease on a beachfront dwelling. He had told his congregation he planned to start another church there, but now says those plans are on hold.
This is the second marriage each for the Whites, who came to Tampa after marrying in Maryland in March 1990. They have four adult children - three from his previous marriage, one from hers.
Without Walls church board member Alick Clarke of Acton, Calif., a longtime friend, said the impending divorce is sad news.
“They were like my heroes. I really love them,” he said. “But I’m also a little pissed off. I didn’t help them build their dream to have them throw it all away.”
An Australian-born businessman, Clarke said he’s given hundreds of thousands of dollars to the church since it was founded by the Whites in 1991 as the South Tampa Christian Center.
He partially blamed the couple’s breakup on their devotion to preaching a prosperity message, exhorting followers to give more money to the church in order to be blessed with greater wealth.
“Too many ministries have become big business. That message is desecrating the church today,” said Clarke, adding that he was disturbed to learn that with revenue at $40 million last year, the church was $22 million in debt.
“That’s just not right.”
Other questions about the Whites’ financial dealings arose in stories published by the Tribune in May. Those included the couple’s failure to repay a $170,000 loan from an elderly widow, money borrowed in 1995 as a down payment on a house. The couple sold the house in 2006, but still had not repaid the loan to Ruth McGinnis by May.
This week, McGinnis told the Tribune that “everything’s been settled financially between Pastor Randy and me.”
Also in May, The Tribune wrote about a young mother who said she never received the home she won in a widely publicized church contest in 2002.
On Aug. 15 she reported she and her four children had just moved in to a new home purchased by the church.
Money Matters
The Whites have declined to say what the church pays them.
Michael Chitwood, whose financial services company devised their compensation package, said he recalled they have taken an annual salary as high as $1.5 million collectively, though most years it’s closer to $600,000.
They were approved to take up to $3 million collectively, said the president of Chitwood & Chitwood of Tennessee.
Perhaps the most complex part of their divorce, being handled by Holland & Knight law firm, will be dividing up the assets, debts and business interests.
The couple’s home on Bayshore Boulevard has an assessed value of $2.22 million. They have a land trust that includes two Tampa houses with assessed values of $144,800 and $257,835. The New York condo is valued at about $3.5 million.
Their multimillion-dollar ministry includes a private jet.
Randy White has said much of their wealth comes from more than 23 successful business ventures, including real estate and his role as a pitchman for Great HealthWorks’ Omega XL fatty acid pills.
His main company, RAW Realty, is listed on his company Web site as being housed at 100 S. Ashley Drive, Suite 1180, in Tampa, but a law firm occupies that space. The state lists the company as being located at 2511 Grady Ave. in Tampa, which is the church address. The phone number on the Web site and listed with the state is disconnected. E-mails sent to the Web address were not returned.
White said this week the company is “very much active” in real estate, residential acquisitions and other ventures, but he’s pared it down to himself and one assistant.
An ‘Amazing’ Start
Phil Cooke, a Los Angeles-based media strategist and consultant for religious and nonprofit organizations, said he remembers when the couple started their ministry.
“What they did in Tampa’s inner city was amazing,” he said. “They were creative, sharp, innovative. The track they started out on was terrific.”
The church had dozens of ministries that worked with disadvantaged children, the homeless, people with substance abuse problems, single mothers and others on society’s fringe.
It put on Easter services in venues such as the Sun Dome, where thousands were treated to giveaways and performances by stars such as Loretta Lynn, Lee Greenwood and Patti LaBelle. The high energy and good works attracted high-profile members including professional athletes and other local celebrities.
As the church gained members and revenue, the pastors changed. Paula built her international television ministry and became a life coach on “The Tyra Banks Show.” Randy talked of performing nuptials for Kid Rock and Pamela Anderson in Michigan (they filed for divorce a month later). He boasted that he wasn’t like “religious” people, posing in 2005 for a cover story in Makes and Models magazine, a publication devoted to exotic cars, motorcycles and scantily clad models. He has tattoos, collects guns and enjoys wine.
At a Sunday service in April, he introduced his former personal trainer, an attractive ex-porn star turned Christian, from the pulpit.
“We’re cutting edge,” he told the Tribune that month. “We do things a little bit differently than what a typical ministry would do.”
This week, White promised changes are in store for the church and himself.
Without Walls will be less independent and more visible in the community, he said. He wants to team with other ministries in the city.
For personal growth, he now has three “accountability partners” who will help him concentrate on being a “good dad and great pastor.”
“I’ve been preaching restoration for 15 years,” he said. “Now it’s time to live it.”
Tim Storey, a Los Angeles-based minister and life coach, is a big believer in restoration; when he divorced, his ministry was scarred.
“You can rebound from it, but not everyone will go with you,” said Storey, a frequent guest speaker at Without Walls. “The key is turning to God to turn the setbacks into comebacks.”
Paula White said she knows followers will feel let down and disappointed by the announcement, given that evangelical Christians hold marriage as a sacred institution and a cornerstone of a godly life.
“I wish there was a magic formula that gave you guarantees in life,” she said. “Now I have to draw deep into my faith and let God draw me out of this dark place.”
Doreen Fawkes, a former business administrator at Without Walls, said she hates to see any marriage end, but she’s not surprised by the announcement.
“They grew at an unbelievable speed. It became less about God and more about self-promotion,” she said, but the congregation needs to understand it’s not just about the Whites.
“The people are the church,” she said. “And the presence of God is the glue that holds them together. I pray the people will see that and carry on.”
August 29th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Re #4611 I want to say that you are a great mate & I appreciate you & your wife so much!
I saw what happened to your wife - it was abusive & awful. It demonstrated that the heart of the leadership was firmly set towards the supporting of a “boys club” & of making money - not towards embracing loyal people who thought what they were participating in was a genuine ministry.
I am so glad that you guys have escaped from that bondage & are now truly experiencing the liberty of Christ.
J
August 29th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
‘why did you do that to her?, she loved you and was totally devoted and loyal to you, she prayed for you every day and guarded your back a thousand times. She turned your failing business into a force and yet you belittled her and stole her self esteem and confidence. What have you to say?
Makes the blood run cold…
August 29th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
IfIknewwhen- Jesus is deeply committed to your families future, may it be one of healing, strengthening, joy, blessing. May the future things be so much more in every way than the former things.
Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
If we call Him Abba Father, then we are his little ones.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Well, i guess by this time tomorrow Signposts in it’s original form will be no more.
Thanks to everybody (including right-wing fundo’s & literalists) for providing the only community i have had this past couple of years.
God’s Blessings upon you all.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
oooohhh no you don’t
i have the personality type that has to have the last word
i will be sitting at my computer around the clock to have the last say on all the strings i can…
August 31st, 2007 at 4:27 pm
ditto
September 1st, 2007 at 8:58 am
From The Family Guy
September 1st, 2007 at 9:08 am
Reporter:So what do you do at Hillsong meetings?
Brian Houston: We help those who already have the means to help themselves. Also we perpetuate the idea that Jesus chose us to destroy Signposts and poverty thinking type people
Reporter: I don’t know why, but I feel more prosperous already