hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 20th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
I hope so, the sense of humour is very much “tears of a clown”.
as a government worker, I’m very much a small cog in a big wheel.
For most of my life I’ve experienced injustice and been confronted with injustice (both spiritually and secularly). Without being a a pain in the arse,
after 20 years I’m getting fed up.
In my legal arguements I’m deadly accurate, often to no avail (as i have to convince senior Government counsel). In my discussions with various religious groups (for want of a better term), I try to be as unoffensive as I can without compromising the truth, often enduring their ridicule.
I gave up my past, thanks to God, where I would get angry with this, but now it is frequently replaced by depression (the anger simmers just beneath)
I’m pretty much stuffed.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:19 am
approaching an alcoholically induced coma, a 3 dog night tune sticks in my brain…
Just an old fashioned hillsong paying on the radio
that underscores the music of someone promising they’ll never go
you say you’ve heard it before as they slowly ramble on and on’
no use in bringing it back ’cause it’s never really gone
just an old fashioned hillsong
one I’m sure they wrote for you and me
Just an old fashioned hillsong
coming down in 3/4 harmony
April 21st, 2006 at 1:25 am
LD In a twisted sort of way, understanding your pain helps ease mine. If injustice rankles; surely powerlessness to act in the face of injustice must eat at the soul. But if injustice and the exploitation of the weak were only in the world, we could cope - we might even feel strengthened and bold in our fight. But, just for a moment, let me hum along with you: “Just an old fashioned hillsong paying.”
April 21st, 2006 at 10:54 am
I love it how you guys elegantly sidestep the old Hillsong line that those who are against Hillsong are bitter and hurt souls.
There is no evidence of bitterness, sadness or depression in your posts.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:47 am
Oh Steve, whatever could you mean by that? LOL
April 21st, 2006 at 2:51 pm
I heard a funny story the other day, which I thought was worth repeating here. A friend of mine recently had need to phone an AOG pastor (not a mega church, but a scaled down regional version).
She phoned them up, but there was some difficulty in that the receptionist couldn’t find the pastor’s PA and well you can’t just put a call directly through to the pastor. My friend countered that the PA wasn’t going to be able to help anyway.
At this point there was a spiel of ‘super spirro’ speak. “I honour your request” “I am under authority”. The obvious choice? Hang up and try another way, my friend tracked down the pastor’s direct number via a friend of hers who was a friend of his. So like in all of the AOG churches I have had contact with it all comes down to who you know.
The amusing thing is that hearing her tell the story, I was able to put in a nice counterpoint. I’m currently attending the Bappos in the same town. While she was struggling to contact the AOG I found a phone message on my desk. “Mike called, phone him on #### ####” I gave the number a call (wondering who Mike was) and found I’d called the Baptist church. All I said was “is Mike there?” and I was put straight through, no PA not even a question of who I was or what I wanted.
And the icing on the cake? He hadn’t seen me in a while and was wondering if I wanted to get some lunch. Now, I’m no one in this church. I’ve never got around to filling in my membership forms, I’m one of the leaders of a small bible study group and I helped out in the crèche when my youngest was that age (about two years ago). On top of that ‘lunch’ was just a chin wag, no agenda, no ‘ministry’ he needed me for. And when I said that one of the reasons I hadn’t been around much was because I’m on the committee for the local rugby club (The Devils) he asked if there was anything he or the church could do to help out.
It seems to me that this is a good example of two contrasting philosophies. Not that I’m saying that theologically one is right the other is wrong, but rather that from a purely human touchy feely view point one is nicer.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:58 pm
an addendum:
Once I found that the number was the Baptist church I realised that the Mike in question was the pastor. Not that I didn’t know the pastor was called Mike, but that the note didn’t indicate which Mike (I know a dozen or so) had called.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Ahh, so the Baptist church makes you feel good because it offered to support your Devil-ish pursuits?
(Steve sits down smugly feeling like he has made a comment worthy of Lance).
PS. I’m just being silly…not serious…
April 21st, 2006 at 3:44 pm
You’re not in Alice Springs are you Johnny C?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Sorry about the heart on the sleeve crap, life goes on.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Luke, what the hell good is anonymity online if you can just go and make a claim like that based on the complete lack of information I provided.
or in other words, yes
April 21st, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Lol….sorry old bean.
It’s just the Mike used to be my pastor and the Devils were the club I played for
April 21st, 2006 at 4:52 pm
I’m sure that with a little bit of work I could manage to find another town in Australia with a rugby club called devils and a Baptist pastor called Mike. Once I’ve done that I’m back in the land of plausible deniability.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:01 pm
A good Christian man like yourself wouldn’t want to go around denying such things would he?
April 21st, 2006 at 6:23 pm
LD “sorry about …” Can’t see any reason why you would be - encouraged me, anyway. Hey, Hey, hold on … is that why you’re so stinking sorry Heyyyy!! And just loved the 3 Tele-evangelist song; chorus again:
Just an old fashioned hillsong
Coming for your wallet and … Seem to have lost the words
Post-script: not really wanting to bag hillsong per se, i don’t know whether hearts are good or bad - and assume neither, its the so called “new paradigm” that they and so many others preach; a “different gospel” me fears.
April 21st, 2006 at 9:50 pm
I know that Mike as well. In my experience, an honest bloke with plenty of time for nobodies!
April 22nd, 2006 at 9:48 pm
United we stand, divide we fall. I get peed off that the Christian belief has been so easily dismissed/ridiculed these days.
I can see so many people with strong convictions on this website, but we seem to be imploding with navel gazing and arguments.
If only we could promote God’s will/works. The good works of Christianity are seldom publicized, in fact it’s invariably the opposite. Whenever the various denominations (legit or otherwise) do something good, it receives no recognition (ideally in doing the Lord’s work really don’t need to be recognized but it helps) however, whenever a preacher or church member of whatever denomination stuffs up, it’s world news.
Having said that, I guess I’m a prime example of religion and politics not mixing. Stupidly, I’ve let my heart rule my head once too often and it looks like I may get the bullet. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, but unfortunately Caesar doesn’t have a retirement plan.
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:48 pm
I think I might enrole for a course of logical positivism at the university of Woolloomooloo, always look on the bright side of life. When I graduate, I may qualify for pastor at hillsong, but then again, I couldn’t over qualify Brian.
On that note, I gave a whole heap of literature to the “Hillsong scholarship” kids next door, concerning the teachings/philosophy of Hillsong (as opposed to their scriptural equivalents) and the activities of their leadership. Sadly, they returned the info quite promptly.
Amongst the papers though, was a completed assignment from one of the girls which they had left there by mistake
I read this paper and it made me quite sad. The questions asked, and the level of understanding required to answer them, was on par with an early teens Sunday School class. The qualification to be attained at the end of the exercise was supposed to be diploma Bachelor Theology. I don’t know if this is a uniquely Hillsong qualification or it is properly recognized however, it’s scary.
It seems most of the younger generation these days are attracted to the glitzy churches, if they are being indoctrinated with this crap and then sent out to door knock, or preach in their own right, it doesn’t look good for the generations to come, especially with the “quick fix, no questions asked” mindset of today.
John Lennon once said “whatever gets you through the night is alright”, not necessarily so.
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:23 pm
“… i may get a bullet.” If you find you have indeed sunk your own little ship, you might enjoy the change. But if it is or becomes a genuine concern to you, well ime often awake at 2.30 am with nothing useful to do and could probably afford a minute or two … second or three at least … to mention you and your situation to the Lord. … pray for one another.
As for your concerns for current and future generations; can anything short of a New Reformation save our grandchildren from the New Catholicism? Truth seems to have been swept away by the tide of “whatever gets you through …”
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:49 pm
James,
thanks for your thoughts, a prayer is never wasted.
The new reformation is near, but it seems we’re all treading water at the moment
April 23rd, 2006 at 7:07 am
Ditto
April 23rd, 2006 at 12:48 pm
‘I read this paper and it made me quite sad. The questions asked, and the level of understanding required to answer them, was on par with an early teens Sunday School class.’
I completed Hillsong College at Diploma level. It is not a Bible college, but a leadership college.
But I agree. The standard of teaching is too simple.
April 23rd, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Emblazoned “I completed Hillsong College at Diploma level. It is not a Bible college, but a leadership college.
But I agree. The standard of teaching is too simple”.
It is dangerous when Leadership becomes the obession and the goal. So many Bible Colleges are becoming Leadership colleges …
Leadership is but one tool in a toolbox for getting things done.
The pendulum has swung too far in favour of Charismatic Leadership way from Chracter ethic and technical competencies.
The importnace of good doctrine has been ‘dumbed down’ in many churches … as a consequence Truth has been devalued … Leaders blindly lead with compromise, lies and untruth’s … and not thinking things through.
Then when things go belly up … these Leaders will retort “I’m too busy to deal with that”, “we used the formula / template of another successful Church”, “or the marketing guys did it”…
True leaders will value technical competence and integrity. They will take responsibility for the behaviours of their people and their organisations. They know that the buck stops with them. They will listen to others, turn around and make an apology (not an excuse) and outline and communicate a plan of how they are going to fix a given ’situation’.
It appears that even this stuff is not taught that the so-called simplistic Leadership colleges alongside the ’spin and rhetoric’ and Church growth or aptly named ‘natural leadership’ courses.
April 23rd, 2006 at 3:07 pm
‘True leaders will value technical competence and integrity.’
I agree.
And church leaders need to be trained as such.
My training as a High School teacher is much more difficult and exacting, technically speaking. To its credit, the College is quite demanding in other ways…time and labour. But it is easy to criticise the church for using these people as an instant labour pool of 500 full time young adults. We did the ground work at conferences and at most church services throughout the year. Lots of hard work.
And I don’t believe it was ‘real’ ministry anymore, except probably the kids ministry. But other things were building the Hillsong Empire, not necessarily His kingdom. And I rue that.
April 23rd, 2006 at 5:17 pm
embalzzoned - I would concur ‘except probably the kids ministry’.
At my time in the Contemporary Church I found the people in the Kids ministry to be an amazing group of people - far removed from the politics, bad theology and something I liked is that their ministry was relevant and fun.
I came from and have been going back to a Lutheran Church. I will miss the kids ministry at the CC, though my son is now getting deeper teaching at a Lutheran kids study group (and yes they still have fun!).
April 24th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Hey, Trust Us, We’re Pastors.
This week’s ‘offering’ from Phil Pringle’s Christian City Church.
http://203.89.236.8/ramgen/ccc/23040610am.rm
“(PP)….Well, we’re gonna bring our tithes and offerings to the Lord right now, and so if you want an envelope….on your newsletter you have a tear-off strip that you can use for your credit card facility.
If you’re watching on the internet, up in the top right-hand corner of the internet page is a giving section, and for those of you who use the EFTPOS machine, that’s up the back.
If you’re making out a cheque, you make them out to ‘CCC’ thank you very much.
And, just to encourage us with our giving..Simon McIntyre’s going to come right now…
Thank you sir, amen, God bless you.
(SM) Proverbs Chapter 3 and verse 5. I tell a lie. No it is! I told the truth.
“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, do not depend on your own understanding”.
Or, you could say it this way.
“Trust in the Lord, with all your heart, and do not rely upon your own resources”.
Because both of those ways, the text can lend itself to actually speaking either of those ways.
But the point is this.
“Trust in the Lord with all your heart.”
Hey listen! Trust is the basis of every good relationship. And you will not have a good relationship unless you have trust.
A nation will end up in a legal quagmire, when trust has seeped out of the people’s souls.
Lawyers, I use lawyers, I appreciate lawyers, we have lawyers in this church, so I’m not talking about them per se, but lawyers are making a killing on our inability to make trustful decisions.
Marriages are built upon trust. Churches are built upon trust. The Kingdom of God is built upon trust.
The Word of God, God’s promises to you and I…are built upon the sureness and the trustworthiness of His faithfulness to our lives.
Nothing happens, that’s good or right ….without the underpinning of trust.
And God says to you and I, that He wants you to trust Him, with our finances.
He wants us to be placed in a place where we say we are not leaning upon our own resources.
We’re not leaning upon what our stream of income is. We’re not leaning upon our ability, our understanding, our cleverness, our inheritances, but our giving says to God - we trust you that you will see us through when we don’t know how to get through.
Our giving says…..we trust you that you’ll bless us..when we didn’t deserve it.
Our giving says…..we are taking one of the most precious and difficult parts of the human life ..and giving it over to God ..and saying…’Lord, we trust you’.
Offerings are a trust pact with the Almighty God.
Offerings are a trust issue with the Almighty God.
If I can’t trust God, I will never give, but if I do trust God…..I will give.
You know, I was thinking in the first service, it’s a fine philosophy, trust in the Lord, with all your heart, and do not depend upon your own understanding.
Whether it’s poetry or prose, it’s a lovely thought.
It’s a fine philosophical notion, until you’ve got to do something about it.
As you trust in God….he will make sure, that you do not go begging.
David said….’I have lived for X amount of years ..and I’ve never seen the righteous beg for bread, because the righteous trust in the Living God.
So when we give our offering this morning ….what we’re doing…once again…week by week…month by month…year in and year out…we’re saying …’Lord, we trust you…we don’t trust ourselves. We trust you..that you’ll fulfil your promises, because trust is the basis of a relationship with humans…and with the Living God’.
So, I want to pray for you this morning, as we come, we’re gonna take up a trust offering.
We’re trusting the Living God today.
Father, bless every person in this room and their families and extended families and their businesses and their endeavours and their dreams and their visions…as they trust in you first by putting you first.
We thank you today that you’ll bring blessing and opportunity..and the opening up of doors to God’s children this morning.
In Jesus’ name. (PP:Amen). Amen, so can you please receive our trust this morning.
(PP: Bless God).”
Length of offering talk… 4 minutes 25 seconds.
April 24th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
“Lawyers, I use lawyers, I appreciate lawyers, we have lawyers in this church, so I’m not talking about them per se, but lawyers are making a killing on our inability to make trustful decisions.
Marriages are built upon trust. Churches are built upon trust. The Kingdom of God is built upon trust”.
Contemporary Churches, it seems, are built on Trust… not Truth!
“Trust me!” - says Jim Jones!
April 24th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
“Trust, but verify” - Ronald Reagan
April 24th, 2006 at 11:58 pm
Kieren Good quote. It is sort of like the parables of Jesus … seek me with all your heart and you will find me!.
I have personally found that “Diligence” is the only thing in life that NEVER goes unrewarded…
April 25th, 2006 at 2:53 am
Lance, I can hardly believe you have the patience to do all that transcription. I’m transcribing some video for my friend and it takes ages. Unless you catch every word first time (I don’t, although I assume these guys speak LOUD & clear, I know Ashley Evans does, mic’d to the heavens) and you’re a quick typist (I’m moderately fast). I guess you’ve had plenty of practice in your profession.