hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
April 25th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Diligence? As practiced by each and every Hillsong attendee?
I still haven’t figured out what keeps people returning regularly to CCC/Riverview/Hillsong/etc to listen to the type of drivel exemplified above.
Lionfish, why bother trying to “save” these idiots?
April 25th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Diligence? As practiced by each and every Hillsong attendee?
I still haven’t figured out what keeps people returning regularly to CCC/Riverview/Hillsong/etc to listen to the type of drivel exemplified above.
Lionfish, why bother trying to “save” these idiots?
April 25th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
Thanks Donald. Preciate it.
April 25th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
“Lionfish, why bother trying to “save” these idiots?”
DD - I just wish these conversations were around whjen I signed up … its as much about exposing the Business model so that prospects can make informed choices. AMway is having issues with recruitment as new recruits have access to the information presented on the web.
People live in ignorance … look ay Steve1 … he came into these conversations as the first ‘intelligent’ Hillsonger .. and from what I understand he is now in the process of leaving Hillsong.
April 25th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Aye, Steve 1 (now emblazoned) is indeed.
For various reasons.
but I do feel some degree of alienation from Hillsong’s methods, and I would not imitate or propogate these.
April 25th, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Could somebody other than me please petition Phil and Dan to study GALATIANS together via this blog.
April 26th, 2006 at 12:07 am
GALATIONS, great idea; For freedom has Christ set you free, do not let anyone bring you again under a yoke of bondage. Interpretation: Don’t sign any covenant!
April 27th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Well done AOG!
Thought I’d add this to the debate, because while it isn’t Hillsong, it is a church with strong Hillsong connections.
A friend of mine from passed away recently and while I wasn’t able to get to the funeral I was very impressed to hear from friends that the service was in the AOG church, but was officiated by the Baptist minister.
Reading over the comments in this thread and its predecessor, I realised that there are plenty of people who in moving away from the AOG (or other Pentecostal brand) feel that they are cut off from old friends and shunned.
This friend of mine left this AOG church some four years ago, but still had good friends there. In fact he was one of several to make the move to the Baptists at this time (Including myself, although I also moved interstate so I wouldn’t have known if there was any shunning).
While this AOG church suffers from some of the problems mentioned in these discussions (tithe, tithe, tithe for example) I thought it was important that people saw that it is possible for people to leave their congregation and remain on good terms. He had gone to the minister and told him he was leaving the congregation and explained his reasons.
While a funeral is a sad way to make this obvious to me, the guy in question would have been so happy to know that his friends from two different congregations were able to say goodbye together.
April 27th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
That is very true Johnny Chis. It is a sad thing when a person leaves a congregation and ten is seen as a backslider - or even worse - I mean how could it be possible that God might even have called them to leave and go somewhere else?
Anyway, good to see ecumenism alive and well outside of Anglican/Catholic/Uniting Church events - also sad that a funeral brought this out.
April 27th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Having been involved with Hillsong many many years ago (or Hills CLC as its legal name still, I believe) and a number of AOG Churches since - especially one AOG Church in the southern suburbs of Sydney (of which I had the opportunity to work for). I heard the “pep talks” given to whoever was to give the offering sermon. I also heard the post collection conversations of “we have to do another collection, we haven’t got enough”. I think the most interesting coversation I heard once was between the Executive Pastor (there’s a position/title which doesn’t rate a mention in the early Church!) and another staff memeber, which went along the lines of making phonecalls to verious members of the congregation as their pledges for the Building Fund were not large enough. Sure enough, over the upcoming weeks, a number of people received phonecalls from the Church Office, asking to increase their pledge amounts, as they “could afford more”.
I can remember making a point of not giving any money after an offering spiel, despite being spoken to about the “bad example” I was setting for others at the time. I then and still do believe that giving any money is a private thing…
I can remember growing up and my parents and their friends laughing at the American preachers and they way they spoke to congregations about giving money. A number of years later, they sit and take it all in and give all that money…
April 27th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Go on …name the church.
Is it….
Anugrah Christian Fellowship, Ps. J Ram Liverpool
Arabic Assembly of God Pastor S Jabur Canley Heights
Assyrians For Christ Ministry Henry Tarveran Lurnea
Camden Christian Life Centre Mick Agius Camden
Campbelltown Christian Fellowship Ps. J Rokobatini Macquarie Fields
Campbelltown Samoan AOG Togia Faapito Campbelltown
Christian Fellowship Centre AOG Ps. T Vuli Punchbowl
Christian Life Centre Ingleburn Ps. E Wing Ingleburn
Church of Samoa Pastor S Nofoaluma Campbelltown
Claymore Samoan AOG Pastor Fainifo Eagle Vale
Fairfield Community Church Ps. J Guerra Fairfield
Fairfield Samoan AOG Pastor K Taulapapa Fairfield
Fountain of Eternal Life Ps. L Vejar Wakely
Hebron Christian Revival Centre Pastor V Valevatu Liverpool
Immanuel City Church Ps. A Periasamy Campbelltown
Immanuel City Church Ps. A Periasamy Casula
International Community Church, Ps. Abraham Varghese Liverpool
Italian Life Centre - V Salvadore Liverpool
Jesus Lord of the Harvest Fellowship Rodel Ramos Minto
Jesus Reigns International Ministries Edwin Antonio Ingleburn
Southland Christian Centre Eric Aaron Bowral
Liverpool CLC Ps. J McMartin Liverpool
Liverpool Immanuel Christian Fellowship Ps. Anthony Jacob Liverpool
Liverpool Samoan AOG Pastor A Pritchard Liverpool
Macarthur CLC Ps. Keith & Sue Ainge Campbelltown
Macarthur Samoan AOG Pastor Fauimaono Rosemeadow
Miller Assemblies of God Taito L Mauga Miller
Mt Zion Christian Fellowship Centre Ps. K Vidali Liverpool
Prestons Samoan AOG Pastor Pasefika Burwood
Shiloh Christian Fellowship Vijay Prasad Campbelltown
I don’t understand why Christians who know that something is wrong, refuse to name the church or the people involved, and why they still feel the need to protect them…long after they’ve left…vowing never to return.
Thanks to the honesty of some former church/(cult) members…we now know that Brian Houston is a workplace bully…and Phil Pringle is a money-hungry wolf.
Others now no longer need to fall into their trap.
I say, let the truth fully come out about church wankers.
April 27th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Splat… Good comment. It’s ‘on the money’.
Yes … “I then and still do believe that giving any money is a private thing…”.
I agree - so would JC.
I am currently reading a book written in 1971 on the methods of the american evangelists and preachers. Nothing has changed except that technology has advanced.
The author writes of a method whereby the Preacher in a relatively poor Hi-Fi Church called people willing to give $20. Next he called the $15 dollar givers. Then the $10 givers. Next the $5.00 givers -0 down to the one dollar givers.
He was separating the contributors - like sheep from goats - and making a spectable of those who are willing to give more…
How is this different from the special Kindom builder Clubs in Churches open to those who give $5000 above their tithes into the Building funds and recieve ’special recognition’. Or when Joyce Meyesr calls out and recieves an offering of $USD1M from someone in the crowd in stocks.
Or when a preacher gets up in front of a Youth group and says that their Church has a list of the top 50 tithers and he is in the tope 10 … ’so you had better emulate me!’.
True Christian teaching has been turned on its head.
I now understand why JC said ‘you cannot serve two masters’… Church Leaders ‘Go figure!’.
April 27th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
Lance,
It wasn’t intentional to leave out the name of the Church.. But the Church actually wasn’t on the list, it was Shire Christian Centre or Sutherland Christian Growth Centre (it’s legal and original name).
As much as the leadership of that Church would not like to hear it, its not a big name Church. They have been trying for years now to make it another “Hillsong” Church by name. By all other means now it is, apart from the name (Which I still find interesting).
April 27th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
“…Thanks to the honesty of some former church/(cult) members we now know that Brian Houston is a workplace bully and Phil Pringle is a money-hungry wolf…”
Actually Lance Phil Pringle is a workplace bully too - make no mistake.
I was in one of the downstairs offices when I worked there and in he strides with some of the upstairs office entourage. He finds a computer he wants and just says to the P.A who was using it “Get Off”.
She looks a little taken aback and ‘gets off’. He then just takes over here cubicle and starts doing his thing… Totally arrogant about it all - complete wanker. She just looks wide-eyed at it all, shakes her head and walks out… can’t say I blame her.
If a pastoral staff member wasn’t performing to his standards they were shipped off on a ‘church plant’… Or asked to leave because ‘it’s time to move on, I just feel God telling me that very strongly’.
Re ‘pep talks’, when I worked there he gave the staff a lashing re the annual ‘Rise and Build’ program. Staff had to be seen to be ‘leading the congregation’ in this area. Offerings under $1000 were just on according to Mr Pringle. Just how you ‘lead the congregation’ when nobodys giving is disclosed to anyone else is beyond me.
Wolves in sheeps clothing, having the appearance of Godliness but being something else…
WIGGY
April 27th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
Thanks Splat, I just find I have to fight to get most Christians to name abusive or dodgy churches, because no-one wants to be seen as the ‘Judas’ selling out their local suburban ‘messiah’…(and his staff).
April 27th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
One other thing I thought was funny was that once after a staff meeting many of us lowly ‘downstairs’ staff lazily wandered back to our cubicles.
When we walked in the office area stank, it reeked actually.
Someone had obviously dropped their guts in the loo and it was fetid, u putrid stench.
When questioned ‘who was that?!’ apparently it was none other than Ps Phil Pringle. Most staff just went ‘oh…oh ok then’ and went back to work and it never came up again.
I had a good laugh out loud about it and copped a repriamand later on that day - go figure!
WIGGY
April 27th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Splat & Wiggy: I guess familiarity breeds contempt.
From the sound of it, these guys would not survive in the coprporate world with behaviour like that.
Though in an organisation where your staff and your members(who are not legally members and have no legal rights) (or should they be more rightly termed spiritual consumers?) believe that their leaders are annointed ‘Men of God’ - then they can get away with bullying…fraud, making conflicting media statements which may indicate even lying to the press and the community or anything!
Just glad I figured out the Business model and am saving my own precious dollars now!
Richard
April 27th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
“Actually Lance Phil Pringle is a workplace bully too - make no mistake.
I was in one of the downstairs offices when I worked there and in he strides with some of the upstairs office entourage. He finds a computer he wants and just says to the P.A who was using it “Get Off”.
She looks a little taken aback and ‘gets off’. He then just takes over here cubicle and starts doing his thing… Totally arrogant about it all - complete wanker. She just looks wide-eyed at it all, shakes her head and walks out… can’t say I blame her.”
But they always get away with it..don’t they.
Well, welcome to the world of the internet, where they don’t get away with it anymore.
Welcome to accountability.
April 27th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
“When we walked in the office area stank, it reeked actually.
Someone had obviously dropped their guts in the loo and it was fetid, u putrid stench.
When questioned ‘who was that?!’ apparently it was none other than Ps Phil Pringle. Most staff just went ‘oh…oh ok then’ and went back to work and it never came up again.
I had a good laugh out loud about it and copped a repriamand later on that day - go figure!”
Because of course, Phil Pringle’s shit doesn’t stink.
How do they ‘reprimand’ you exactly, for laughing about Phil Pringle’s ozone-depleting farts?
April 27th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
“How do they ‘reprimand’ you exactly, for laughing about Phil Pringle’s ozone-depleting farts? ”
They probably sent him to the gas cahmbers.
April 27th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
It all reminds me of this post at http://www.annong.blogspot.com
“….. started working at Riverview’s church office on Tuesday. I was pretty nervous at first… (cuz I didn’t and still don’t know many people at church), but I was really blessed to be able to work with a wonderful lady called Paulina. I’m now working in the Senior Minister’s Department which basically helps Pastor Phil Baker organise his schedule and the events what involve him in it. I’ve been doing data entry for starters, and it’s been pretty fun… One thing I did notice - Perhaps because the office is so big and perhaps there are always new people/ volunteers running around helping out, most of the permanent staff don’t even realise you’re there or recognise you or are even bothered to get to know you.”
And the office culture of course becomes the megachurch culture.
It’s a flawed model for church.
April 27th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
How do they ‘reprimand’ you exactly, for laughing about Phil Pringle’s ozone-depleting farts?
Hey Lance
I just got an earful from the GM (yes - General Manager) about how it’s because of Pastor Phil I have a job, because of Pastor Phil three bags full blah, blah, blah.
Basically the whole reason I’m anyone or even breathing in the same air space as the anointed man of God is because Pastor Phil was obedient to the call of God and I shouldn’t be taking that lightly etc.
It was all very cloak and dagger and cryptic etc but it was obvious someone had blabbed about me having a good old laugh about him dropping a no 2 in the downstairs office.
WIGGY
April 27th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Oh one other thing Lance - if someone left the movement for whatever reason they were told that they were ‘not allowed’ to contact anyone from the congregation, no exceptions and no excuses.
This included prominent people, staff members and other ‘hands on’ types.
I tried to get in touch with someone who’s left about halfway through my tenure there because I wanted to find out what had happened. When I rang him he says “You know I shouldn’t be talking to you don’t you? If they find out, I’ll probably get an abusive phone call” I just said “I won’t say anything if you don’t”
Unbelievable hey? They think they can dictate who talks to whom.
Cult like? No
Cult? Yes!
WIGGY
April 27th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
“I just got an earful from the GM (yes - General Manager) about how it’s because of Pastor Phil I have a job, because of Pastor Phil three bags full blah, blah, blah.
Basically the whole reason I’m anyone or even breathing in the same air space as the anointed man of God is because Pastor Phil was obedient to the call of God and I shouldn’t be taking that lightly etc.
It was all very cloak and dagger and cryptic etc but it was obvious someone had blabbed about me having a good old laugh about him dropping a no 2 in the downstairs office.”
That’s not bad…given it was only an hour earlier that we were having the conversation about it here……
From Signposts to Dickhead to General Manager in 60 minutes..and back to Signposts………that’s a Signposts record.
BTW……Hello General (Willy) Manager. Nice to know you or one of your toadies is reading Signposts.
You and your cronies who run the church are the spiritual equivalent of toxic algal bloom in the river of life..
“Oh one other thing Lance - if someone left the movement for whatever reason they were told that they were ‘not allowed’ to contact anyone from the congregation, no exceptions and no excuses.
This included prominent people, staff members and other ‘hands on’ types.
I tried to get in touch with someone who’s left about halfway through my tenure there because I wanted to find out what had happened. When I rang him he says “You know I shouldn’t be talking to you don’t you? If they find out, I’ll probably get an abusive phone call” I just said “I won’t say anything if you don’t”
Unbelievable hey? They think they can dictate who talks to whom.
Cult like? No
Cult? Yes!”
When you say…..’the movement’…are you talking about Christian City Churches…or AOG……or Phil Pringle’s church in particular….?
April 27th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Yo Lance. When I say ‘the movement’ I’m talking ’bout CCC, that’s Corruption City Church.
And what was that Lance about “From Signposts to Dickhead to General Manager in 60 minutes..and back to Signposts………that’s a Signposts record”
Have you guys had some complaints or something?
WIGGY
April 27th, 2006 at 8:40 pm
Hillsong v’s CCC!!! *ding ding ding*
I’m about to cry because I like CCC’s music and all this bad leader arrogance is ruining the purity behind the music for me!!
I will stick to Hillsong…
omg… I’m losing faith.
WIGGY is there ANY thing good about CCC or Phil Pringle…?? Even though they are Hillsong music copycats but Hillsong music sells more and is a bazillion times better and more professional
Love y’all
Charli
April 27th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
WIGGY is there ANY thing good about CCC or Phil Pringle
Um - not really sure how to answer that Charli. I guess once upon a time I would have said YES…
Now sadly I cannot say that is the case.
I truly think Pringle started well but he has become so focused on finance, money and material things.
He dresses it all up with a ’save the world for Jesus’ motto but he’s just hurt far too many people along the way and his ‘fruit’ stinks to high heaven.
Look I can’t judge the guy, I don’t know his heart (only God does) but I can say without a shadow of doubt that the man is steeped in deception and his own importance. I think if he trult valued people above the ‘mission’ or the ‘call’ he would have done things a LOT differently, sad but true Charli…
April 27th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
“I’m about to cry because I like CCC’s music and all this bad leader arrogance is ruining the purity behind the music for me!!
I will stick to Hillsong…
omg… I’m losing faith.”
Geez…don’t read the Weekend Australian then.
April 27th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Lance - what was that about “From Signposts to Dickhead to General Manager in 60 minutes..and back to Signposts………that’s a Signposts record”
Please explain!
WIGGY
April 27th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Sorry..I must have misunderstood….I thought you said you got an earful from your general manager..because someone found out what you’d said on Signposts about Phil Pringle’s lion-killing farts.