hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
4620 Responses to “hillsongs - the next installment”
Pages: « 1 … 140 141 142 143 144 [145] 146 147 148 149 150 … 154 »
Pages: « 1 … 140 141 142 143 144 [145] 146 147 148 149 150 … 154 »
July 29th, 2007 at 9:13 am
Daisy
One of the things I loved about the book was that Tanya actually has a sense of humour . The book starts off with Tanya as a really naive teenager and intertwines her personal story with her visits back to Hillsong . One of the strongest parts of the book is her critique of the sexual politics of Hillsong and the Colour Conference . Along the way she well and truly outs Frank Houston (wonder what couldn’t be said because of legal issues) . At the same time she does treat most of the people she knew with a great deal of sympathy . Its a great read .
July 29th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Thanks Smithus. Sounds very interesting looking forward to reading it.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Hey Helpmegetout,
There’s an old adage that I believe is quite helpful: “If you find the perfect church, don’t join - you’ll only ruin it.” That is, there is no such thing as the perfect church - every church has its flaws and weaknesses, basically because it is full of people with flaws and weaknesses.
The first thing I’d be wary about it picking a church based upon what you perceive as “theological accuracy”. One person’s theological accuracy is another’s unsound doctrine. More importantly, however, is that the pursuit of so-called theological accuracy can quickly become performance-orientated as well. As I well know, in a church like this, as soon as you begin to question the prevailing orthodoxy, you are viewed with considerable suspicion.
Personally, I’d pick personal relationships over “theological accuracy” any day. But you need to ask yourself about the kind of stuff that your current personal relationships are made of. For instance, if your friends can’t withstand the fact that you may disagree on certain issues, I don’t believe that such personal relationships are conducive to spiritual growth - at least not within the current context.
Anyway, here are a few questions you might wish to ask yourself?
(1) Are my issues with the teaching Hillsong related or AOG related?
(2) Notwithstanding my disagreements, is the current environment capable of contributing to my spiritual growth, or is it likely to undermine such growth?
(3) What do I want out of a church?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
And I should add:
(4) What do I wish to contribute to the church?
July 29th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Smithus, or Tanya (if you happen to catch this), one of the things I’m interested in finding out is …
What is the context within which Tanya has written the book (ie. is the book pro-church but anti-Hillsong, or is it anti-God)? Where’s she at? What was her purpose?
This might have been addressed previously in this 145 page list of comments, so sorry for the repeat … but given the timing and the interview on Denton, it can’t hurt to restate things.
July 29th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Darryl
Well Hillsong won’t like the book - its main focus is what it was like to grow up in the church as a teenager . Its both Tanya’s personal journey and a wider explanation of what its like to be a fundamentalist christian - and what happens to that faith . It is a book thats critical of Hillsong and Pentecostal theology but I didn’t find it unsympathetic
July 29th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Smithus, so you think it will be well received by most Christians other than the Hillsong fans?
July 29th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Darryl
I think the book is aimed at the general public - I have no doubt it will sell well - its funny and well written and people are curious about Hillsong .
I don’t know what Christians will think about it .
July 29th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Dan & Phil,
I have ne w post - “Hillsongs a case for change” - if it is “worthy” can you please open the thread.
Lionfish
July 29th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Lionfish I’m salivating…can you let me post it on my site?
http://www.myspace.com/case4change_at_hillsong
July 30th, 2007 at 1:12 am
I don’t mean to bitch but I am truly stunned at the lack of intellignece and critical thinking being displayed by some hillsongers on the blog discussions on my site…….
Lance, you are not permitted to say anyhting nasty about them after that comment. It’s just too easy.
fabio, you’re intelligent, and if I understand correctly, a hillsonger. Please go on my tithing blog at http://www.myspace.com/case4change_at_hillsong and show them how to construct logical cases…
July 30th, 2007 at 3:54 am
“Lance, you are not permitted to say anyhting nasty about them after that comment. It’s just too easy.”
Which brings me to my latest rant.
I’ve had two words buzzing around my head for a few days.
‘Grade Five’.
I see a certain overlap between the way ‘contemporary’ churches operate..and a grade 5 class.
Both feature a bunch of people who can’t sit still.. don’t want to learn (but are there because they know they’re supposed to) and act and think like 11 year olds.
In traditional churches…I’ve found when you talk to most people…they’re a little bit worldly wise…and when you talk to them about adult concepts…they can converse with you.
But have a look at the conversations that ‘contemporary’ church adults have with each other.
It’s about pop/rock music.. (’wawwww…Hill$ong United rocks’)…..simple child-like pastimes…(’I've just got my nails painted..and now we’re gonna eat yummy food’)…and praising their awesome teacher-pastor……..(We had Ms. Zschech today and she let us sing!’)
Let’s just take three random blog postings from yesterday.
Exhibit A.
http://gwendalowe.com/blog/2007/07/30/some-people-are-so-strange/
“hello! my name is gwenda. i am twenty-one years old. i have 10 friends.”
—-
“today ah, i was standing in the hillsong bus on my way back to central. i was holding on to a metal rail. this auntie standing next to me held on to a higher part of the same rail. and then as the bus moved off, that hand above mine slid down and touched my hand. i left my hand there for a while, but got a little uncomfortable, much like the way knees touching unnerves most of us. so i shifted my grip slightly further down. and then! the auntie slid her hand down the rail some more so that her hand touched my hand again! so i shift down again! and she followed again! purposely must touch my hand! so i slid my hand down further and that irritating hand just kept following and resting on my hand! my hand shifted and shifted down the rail until eventually i was holding onto the rail by my thumb and forefinger lor!
why some people so funny one ah?”
Exhibit B.
‘Pauly’
Age - 27
Brisbane
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=28935547&blogID=293200320
So everyone tonight after church… was asking “so Pauly why the suit?”
haha…. ok…. so preaching on success is on your plate…. i thought i would look the part of success… So i decided yesterday i would wear the suit tonight… Plus it’s something different…. I was going to comment on it at the start… and make a lil joke… but i felt God speaking to me and moving before I started to preach in that last worship song… so i had to jump in on what God was doing… so i didn’t end up linking it in….. so thats why the suit…..
It was a lil out of my comfort zone…. going to church all dressed up…. But it was cool… it’s good to try something different everynow and then…
Bless you guys… you are all champions and God is doing some amazing things with in our church…. so i encourage you all to jump on board with what God is doing… and seek him… Get on board with his plans… and success is on your plate!”
Exhibit C.
http://laurenpinches.blogspot.com/2007/07/surrender-conference-and-everything.html
“I am a Christian, attending Doncaster Church of Christ and I go to Deakin University, studying Primary Teaching. I have three siblings, many amazing friends and one awesome boyfriend. I am infact a Princess and I live in a magical Castle, which is surrounded by many forests, with a noble night, who rescued me.
——
Ben and I went on Thursday night to Bindy and Simon’s house to stay the night. We had an early start in the morning to get out to Belgrave Heights for the Surrender Conference. We had quite a few speakers, which I am still in the process of breaking down and sorting through, so I will not talk about any specific thing. I was at the Conference from 8:30am till 3:30pm. My mumm came and picked Ben and I up, leaving Bindy and Simon there. Mum took me home so that I could get ready for Jono’s Melbourne High Formal. I got ready in in 10 minutes, I was so proud (however that doesn’t include the shower I had). Anyway, as soon as I was ready mum drove me to Ringwood, where I meant my spunky looking boyfriend all dressed up in a lovely suit and an amazing tie. We ahd photos and then Karen, Jono’s mum and Debbie, a family friend, took Jono and I to the before party. We hang out there for awhile and then jumped into an awesome Limo. Well we went to the Formal, which was a lot of fun and in soem respcets better than my Formal, as I didn’t have any obligations to go talk to people, it was a lot more relaxing. At 12pm, I was able to give Jono is birthday kiss when he turned 18, which was really nice. We then went to Crown Casino, where Jono become addicted to gambling. From there, I got dropped back at Simon and Bindy’s at 2am. I had a massive 5 hours sleep, getting woken at 7am the next morning for another packed day at the Surrender Conference. I went to some workshops, particularly looking at youth ministry things. The four of us, Bindy, Simon, Ben and I left at 5:30pm, not staying for the night session as we had Jono’s 18th Birthday Party to go to. I got ready once again in 10mins and travelled over to Jono’s so that I could give him his present and then people started arriving. Meanwhile Bindy, Simon and Ben were sleeping, where I missed out on some much needed napping. It didn’t matter though. I had fun at Jono’s party, it was a great evening. Ben and I left Jono’s house at 2:30am and therefore got about 4 hours sleep, being woken my Bindy and Simon at 7am for another day at Conference. I only stayed till 10:30am, as I had to get back for a Hillsong meeting. I got home and was hurrying to get ready and didn’t get enough time to sit and think abotu Surrender or Hillsong stuff in preparation for the meeting. The meeting went really well and it was great being able to share in where everyone is at with faith since coming back from an intense week at Hillsong. Then I had worship vocals, small group and church. I left early, so that I could come home and sleep.”
Now I’m not picking on these individuals…because they’re pretty representative of 99.5% of the hundreds of blog postings with some link to Hill$ong each and every day.
So here’s the problem.
The vast and overwhelming majority of Christians..and the vast and overwhelming majority of ‘contemporary’ church pastors basically haven’t ever had to deal with any issues beyond about a grade 5 level. Go to school, go home, go and have a feed, walk around a shopping centre, listen to some pop music.
I know that’s what I did when I was in grade 5.
Many of them have never even dealt with teenage issues…let alone adult issues.
So how do you get an adult with a grade 5 mind… (hi Bobbie) to deal with issues such as post-traumatic stress, homosexuality, biblical theology, or issues of appropriate workplace policies and practices (how to manage staff without breaking the law and bullying them)?
Do you frame your arguments in an age-appropriate way? Do you encourage them towards higher learning (high school age material)…..do you lock them up in a small room after church until they’re prepared to say sorry to the people they’ve hurt?
It’s fairly clear to me that a lot of the people in these ‘contemporary’ churches like being in class with Mr. Dooley or Mr. Mesiti or Mr. Baker, because even though they talk a lot about stuff that’s hard to understand…..and they can be stern, they can also be funny….like a favourite grade five teacher.
And if you’re lucky, they’ll let you go home early.
So come on all you parents of pre-teens…….how do you teach right from wrong to a 30 or 40 year old pastor or churchgoer..with an 11 year old mindset?
Do you sit the pastor down and tell them the facts of life? Do you send the Police around when they’ve been naughty to give them a fright?
You can’t reason with them as adults, because they don’t think like adults (as Emblazoned is finding on his ‘case for change’ blog).
I just hope Tanya’s written ‘People In Glass Houses’ down to Grade 5 standard..with funny stories about Christian cats getting into mischief with balls of string and drummers falling backwards off their stools …or the Hill$ong readers just won’t get it.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:19 am
I’m more than halfway through Tanya’s book now, she certainly has the gift of humour mixed in with her dark observations. A lot of it you’ll just laugh out loud.
Of course, it gets less funny the more you read….
Tanya, a few of us will come up & introduce ourselves on the 16th in Glebe.
In the meantime…….well done, it’s out there now.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:32 am
So how do you get an adult with a grade 5 mind… (hi Bobbie)
ROFLMAO
July 30th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Just out of interest, where can I pick up a copy of Tanya’s book? Who will be stocking it?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:56 am
dear lance,
i am highly amused how my personal weblog has come to be used as an example in what seems like a lengthy discussion about hillsong church.
a few things:
1. weblogs serve a variety of purposes. mine is a personal weblog meant for family and friends. this particular post was written in mesolectal singlish, in an anecdotal manner in a parody of a blogging style commonly used by singaporean teenagers. it was written for amusement’s sake. it is unfortunate that you should have picked it up as an example for your case, as you clearly did not understand the context in which the post was written.
2. i am insulted that you should use my blog as an example of an adult with a “grade 5″ mind. if you’d bothered to browse further, you’d have realised that the entry just prior to the one you linked to happens to be a discussion about homosexuality, and that i actually do blog a fair abit about religion, society and ethics.
3. “hello! my name is gwenda. i am twenty-one years old. i have 10 friends.” was written in humour. i suppose you failed to get that as well.
i would most appreciate it if you removed that link from your comment, as i am not a good example of that “adults with a grade 5 mind” demographic that you have so derogatorily criticised.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
This guy zOmBiE sTeAmEr posts at emblazoneds myspace and he made me laugh - I’m hoping he is joking and think he is - but you just never konw!
July 30th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
This site is cracking me up ..
i am sure Zombie is toungue in cheek but the thing is.. as Greg said.. ya just never know…
July 30th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
gwendalowe,
I wouldn’t worry about it. Your blog speaks for itself. I got it.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Lance am a perfesshiuhl jurnilist gwendalowe. Not the forst time he didn’t check sources. Right Homer.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Jurnilism? I think it’s called Googleism.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
“weblogs serve a variety of purposes. mine is a personal weblog meant for family and friends. this particular post was written in mesolectal singlish, in an anecdotal manner in a parody of a blogging style commonly used by singaporean teenagers. it was written for amusement’s sake.”
Then it’s a good parody that had me fooled….not unlike the ‘are the Chasers’ stunts real or not’ debate.
I don’t think however that Singaporean teenagers and Hill$ong adults are all that far apart in their grade five thinking…
BTW…you’re assuming that I am a real person….not someone doing a Roy & HG-style semi-mock outrage routine.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
(For our American friends who need things explained to them…think Daily Show - Jon Stewart)
July 30th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
was that a ‘whoops sorry my bad’ Lance?
July 30th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
I think it was….
I think Zombie Streamer is joking…I put a reply on his page and if he wasn’t joking he would presently be very very offended….
I am getting a lot of posts and some help would be appreciated (thanks Jake)…I’m looking particuarly at Lionfish to provide me with that Case for Change….
July 30th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
I’m surprised Lance was fooled by that. Even I know the Singlish thing and I’ve only been to Asia once. But, maybe Lance has never left the most geographically isolated city on earth, ever??? Except for his formative years in Geelong of course.
Googleism indeed.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
we if he hadn’t heard of it he aint the only one.. i had never heard of it till today
July 30th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
^ ^ Really?!!
So lah!!!
…
July 30th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
I was wondering, Emblazoned, why you don’t have your Hillsong/Case for Change myspace showing in your personal myspace top friends? Because there’s nothing on the Hillsong myspace that indicates who it belongs to… and you really can’t expect to be taken seriously unless you put your name to it. Anonymous just won’t cut it…. or 100 year old female in this case.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
you’re also setting yourself up for some kind of “misrepresentation” thing with your profile picture. One guy even posted thinking you are hillsong.