hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
4620 Responses to “hillsongs - the next installment”
Pages: « 1 … 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 [152] 153 154 »
Pages: « 1 … 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 [152] 153 154 »
August 6th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Mmmm…
For what it’s worth… I was in a very interesting meeting last week with Alan Roxburg… pastor, consultant, theologian, teacher, and author from Canada.
He talked about the “Platonic” school of philosophy (ie Plato), which has profoundly influenced Western thought. Plato operated in the world of ideas and ideals… that the fundamental reality is an ideal one.
This has been in competition with the Aristotlean school of thought, which is that we uncover truth by engaging with the real world, and pulling things apart to understand them.
His view is that the Platonic view of ideals is fundamentally opposed to the biblical world view… the incarnate God in the flesh and dirt and messiness of life in Christ… Yahweh whose covenant with Israel included what you eat and when you rest and what to do about mould in your house… Christ who tells us to feed the poor, seek out the one who may have something against us and be reconciled, to love your neighbour as you love yourself, etc.
He said (perhaps wishing to be overly controversial!) that the “church leader” who has the grand vision of the building on 20 acres and the coffee shop and the… (etc) is no different to the leaders of the Third Reich, who had a grand vision of a Christian Empire purified of all that would taint it. In the Platonic view of the world, reality is a vision, and people become “its”… tools for the achievement of the grand vision.
But God is, in fact, in the ordinary stuff of life (Roxburgh called it Aristotlean… I’d probably call it Hebraic spirituality myself) and in the relationships of human beings… not in the ideal world of grand strategic plans, that ultimately become dehumanising and idolatorous.
Well… “them’s fighting words”!!!
Any comments?
August 6th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Janet, very interesting post you’ve got there. I’d have to say I agree profusely, and next time someone asks me something about church, I might have to paraphrase your paraphrase.
Funny comparison to the Third Reich… very very interesting.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
I also thought that was a very interesting post and I agree in essense. The church I occassionally attend had a guest speaker recently, one claim to fame, being the pastor of the biggest church in somewheresville.
Ok I thought, but really, so what? I wonder if he is a truely loving person? I wonder how he treats people? How he handles discent and those who disagree with him? What he is really like?
The speaker spoke and although it was a traditional church, it reminded me of pentecost church (misus the major on the Holy Spirit) retro 10 years ago. The talk focused. I felt on how to be a ‘team player’ within the church organisation, Hillsong even got a mention!, nothing wrong with that, but I had the sneaking suspicion I was being viewed as a means to an end again…….instead of a valued child of my Heavenly Father…sigh.
I was speaking to someone old and wise today and telling them my thoughts and how this kind of thinking seems to be so prevelent across the body of Christ these days. Oh, said the elder, “so they were talking about building a bigger, better mouse trap”- I tell you that comment was meant in a very light hearted manner, but it has got me thinking and it disturbs me frankly. Because it is a trap, to fall into the organisational people as human resource thinking, dont ask what your church can do for you but what you can do for your church thinking, instead of the servant leadership. people are precious to Christ thinking.
I am over feeling the message is ‘you must ‘work or give to the church to be accepted’ these days I think, accept me and the works will flow out of my faith and come from a place of joy and rest as I happily give of my time and talents.
Just a few random thoughts.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
My first response was to agree, but then I thought about whether there were any biblical exceptions and straight away thought of building the temple and especially Nehemiah and Ezra…Joseph, Moses, Isaiah and Daniel had pretty big organisational roles as well where the how and why was just as important as the what.
My pastor preached a sermon yesterday that was prefaced with an anecdote from Bono at the President’s prayer breakfast last year (you can google it) who said for years he asked God to bless what he was doing until another wise older person said he had it wrong - he should seek to be involved in what God is doing because that is where the blessing will be - in placing yourself in what God is doing wherever you are.
OK…I can hear the rumblings around the nation…how do we know what that is, and I don’t want some pastor telling me to build a better mousetrap, been there done that etc.
No answer was given by Bono as to how to get there. Simply I think it is about what can I do now, and praying with an open heart for a bit of direction. Can’t be bothered pretending to theologise or explain the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Interestingly I think my church has been in a bit of building a better mouse trap mode for the last two years or so, but there are a few things happening which indicate the focus may have switched in the last few months. Those indications for me are its becoming less about the “vision” (platonic) and the fait accompli that goes along with that, and more about asking God what does He want us to do, praying about that with an open question and open mind, and being available (Aristotelian perhaps?). Here’s hoping.
Cheers
MN
August 7th, 2007 at 10:58 am
It’s sad, the ‘us and them’ divide that seems to have crept into church community. I suppose when I think about it, that is what irks me the most. The ‘professional’ ministry tells the congregation what the vision is?? Then if a congregant questions the ‘vision’ they are branded trouble makers, not team players, etc etc. God help them if they question anything, cause the ‘leadership’ knows best, they are the ‘anointed’ ones who hear from God for everyone….sounding historically familiar yet??
Many pastors and many in church leadership seem to have fallen into the build a bigger, better mouse trap, trap - then build a even bigger, better mouse trap, then build a state of the art bigger, better mouse trap.
From the pew it feels like “support MY vision”, “give give give give”, “work work work work”, “agree, agree, agree”, you end up feeling like the proverbial dead horse being flogged.
I know there are practicalities to church life, particularly when you do ‘church formal’ and that churches need funds to be able to function well.
But so much of what I see seems like a competition between mouse trap builders to validate their existence at the expense of loving people, and certainly at the expense of loving ‘difficult’ people, who really are not so difficult at all, but may just see ‘church’ as something else and do not want to catch the ‘mouse trap’ express- purposefully or otherwise.
What are your thoughts mn?
Daisy.
August 7th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
THE SECRET
What amazes me is “the secret” which is basically the LAW of ATTRACTION , mind science, Christian science, new age and Hinduism.
Is the SAME teaching in mega friendly seeker churches like hill$ong and other emerging churches.
don’t believe me? do a study on where Kenneth Hagen got his teachings from.
E. W. Kenyon
August 7th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Daisy, I agree completely
This might be an interesting read for you guys, it is how I view the church. The e-book is called straight talk to pastors, and is by Frank Viola
http://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf
it is a quick read but 70 pages. I believe if the church was structured this way, we would see much of this crap go away.
rev
August 7th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
I’m still processing whether or not I agree with Alan Roxburgh, by the way…
I do think there is a place for vision if it is “Kingdom of God” vision… good news for the poor, release of the captives, doing justice, loving mercy, a community that expresses the coming Kingdom through loving one another as Christ loved us…
But there is NOTHING in the New Testament (that I can think of) which associates the vision of the Kingdom of God with a big building on 20 acres of land… which Wolfgang Simpson argues is a blending of worship of the gods in a dedicated pagan basillica with the Christianization of the Roman empire. Did Jesus say anything about buildings for the church he would build????
Yes, the covenant with ancient Israel was a “time and place” covenant and a temple to Yahweh was part of that. Alexander Campbell (the key figure in the early formation of Churches of Christ) looked at the bible through the lens of a series of covenants… and that the new covenant the church has through Christ is both a “kingdom NOT of this world” in nature… but that also gets expressed through very practical things… visiting those in prison, feeding the hungry, being reconcilled with your brother, etc. etc.
Should Christians have a “tabernacle mentality”, as people of a new covenant? Probably not… but they often do…
(This is stream of consciousness writing for me… but I think I’m sounding more and more anarchic. Look what the Rev’s done!!!!)
August 7th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
read that e book
August 7th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
***LUNCH THIS SUNDAY on the 17th***
Looks like we’re just going for the regular old Bistro & Beer Garden situation rather than the restaurant, that way people can bring as many friends as they like without notice & it dosen’t preclude ppl who don’t want to spend that much.
We’ll see everyone who’s coming (hoping for some surprises!) at 1pm on the day, i will be there from midday to try & get an outdoor table for us so you can come a bit earlier if you like).
We’ll talk more about how to recognise each other closer to to the day!
August 7th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Yay!
August 7th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
12th! (Twelfth) people!
NOT the 17th, that was of course a typo.
This Sunday is the 12th.
August 7th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Oh & Eman!
Smithus & i were at GJ’s Narabeen at about 9.30pm Saturday night on the way back from thje movies at Warriewood. The two girls behind the counter were both CCC (”Change”) & said more than half the staff there were, too. Heh Heh…
Then when i filled my tank up at Balgowlah the cashier was a Creative Arts student @ CCC too! THe Northern Beaches is swarming!
PS. I can highly recommend the Soy White Hot-Choc @ GJ’s for those who don’t do dairy! Oh, & i admit the service was excellent at both places!
August 7th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
You had me worried there for a sec Reve.
Maybe we could develop a ’secret signposts handshake’…nah, sounds too much like freemasonry.
I know what You, ‘Smithus’ and Geoff look like, so I won’t have any trouble finding you.
August 7th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Reve… welcome to the Northern Beaches man… It’s traumatic not being able to go out without being reminded of the place you’d most like to forget. Ah well =)
You should’ve stopped by Warringah Mall as well.
May I ask how you came to find out all these cashiers (with excellent service) were CCCers?
August 7th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Heh Heh, I’m Noerthern Beaches through & through Eman, - born & raised & currently living near Manly.
How did i know? Well at GJ’s i said to them when they served me “do you get many people from CCC in here?” & they just laughed & said “we’re from CCC!” & the convo went from there.
I asked the servo’ guy how his day was going & he said that he’d just come from college, i asked him what he was studying & he said “music & the Bible” & i said “not at CCC?” & he said “yeah, how did you know?”
All of them were college students.
I’m one of those sociable people seking information, if i hail a taxi for a 10 minute ride, by the time i get out i will know : how many times the taxi driver has been married / how many kids he has / how long he has been in the country / what suburb he lives in / what his hopes are for the future - he will then say that i know more about him than his closest friends & probably his wife!
People like telling me about themselves & i like asking questions & then listening…
August 7th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Who’s for the 19th?
August 7th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Daisy, your post about the pastor from somewherelseville reminds me of a similar experience. Sitting in church waiting to hear this guy speak to us, billed as having the largest church in St.elsewhere and being on fire for God. How does this God loving man treat people? He preceeded to tell us that to test the character/spirit of his interns or lay people who he has asked to preach on Sunday he does the following. Sits beside the anxious looking victim during the worship and whispers in their ear “I have had a change of plan, you will not be preaching today”. He says their response shows him if their motives are pure. If they say no problem brother and show no disappointment then they have pure motives. Those that look perplexed and show anything else apparently are too fleshy. This is surely an example of arrogant abuse of power. My bible tells me that he should have encouraged and built up the nervous looking novice. “come on you can do it, or I asked you to preach cause I know you can do it etc.” Anyone who knows the emotions that are churning just before you get up to speak etc would know the vulnerability that you would be feeling. Your response maybe misinterpreted. Call me old fashioned, but, I don’t see Jesus in these sorts of approaches. Am I reading from a different bible? Now I am angry, so if you don’t like swearing skip thisnext bit. BLOODY arrogant prat pastors (not you good ones out there) as my mother would say “you all need your bottoms smacked”.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
What a horrible (and scarey) story….where do you begin?? I think the pastors plan may be back firing as that story tells me much more about the pastor from St.Elsewhere than the intern or lay person. Someone who perhaps holds down a full time job, ‘works’ for the church, someone who may have spent who knows how long, studying, praying, preparing to bring a word in season. What an awful abuse of power, I wonder how many very good preachers/teachers/servants/people/Christs beloved he has destroyed during his malevolent reign??
August 7th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
He’s probably completely unaware that his “character test” shows more about his own character (ie deceptive and manipulative and only willing to tolerate people who’ll cheerfully do anything HE wants) than the character of the hapless novices… who’ve probably spent many, many hours of earnest prayer and preparation unaware it’s just a trick…
Bastard.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Posted around the same time Daisy… snap! Great minds think alike.
August 7th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
The Rev,
Thanks for the link to the Frank Viola PDF. I remeber reading it some time ago but could not find it again. It really does make interesting reading
August 8th, 2007 at 12:58 am
Rev
would like to read the book, but have a cue of reading that I’m failing at now anyway
Daisy
I’m probably one of those difficult people that is easy to miss, but then again I could just be avoidant as well.
Show me a church and we’ll find some hurt people - may be by a pastor since in many churches the congregation expects the pastor to carry the can for everything - rightly or wrongly. Show me a church and more often than not with all the flaws that have been built into it I guess we’ll find brothers and sisters in Christ.
To me the better mouse trap syndrome is a reflection of works which I thin many of us want to believe in because it means we can take control - for those control freaks and egocentrics amongst us more control is better cause only then will we get it right - for those lazy amongst us - here let me cede control of my life to you so I don’t have to think - for those of us who just want to serve and love God - mousetraps are pain in the arse - especially if they are really really big mousetraps
The irony as you point out is there is a place for organisation - the trick on a daily and longterm basis is to submit that to God’s leading which comes from a number of places including that same church as individuals and corporately, and not make it dependent on the experts or the professionals.
Look I don’t know the answer - how’s that? How do you match Spirit lead with organisation? How do not let the organisation become its own object and drown out Spirit lead?
Seems to me Spirit lead is very much a discipline which evades me at the best of times.
I don’t know - rambling - this seems more Rev’s patch than mine.
At the end of the day the pastor no matter how good or bad he is, or my wife, or anyone else is responsible for my walk with Him - I’ve just gotta trust that even if a landmine goes off under my foot that He’s got me covered - worse still would be my wife, or one of my kids feet.
Cheers
MN
August 8th, 2007 at 1:10 am
“Churches in the north-west are making the most of the new movie Amazing Grace, using it to raise awareness of the business of people-trafficking.
The film tells the story of British parliamentarian William Wilberforce (1759-1833), who led a 20-year fight to abolish slavery throughout the British colonies.
He also advocated for child labor laws, campaigned for education of the blind and deaf, and established many organisations - from the RSPCA to the National Gallery (of Art).
The film is showing at Greater Union in Castle Towers, and local churches have hired out the cinema for their own screenings.
Pastor Kevin Keegan of Dural Baptist organised a Sunday night screening in place of a church service. He said people needed to realise that people-trafficking still occurred in many countries.
”We see the passion that caused Wilberforce to take that action, and we think, ‘how dumb [the British parliament] must have been, of course they needed to end slavery’, but we need to realise that situation still exists today,” he said.
His church has supported a worldwide anti-slavery campaign called ”Stop the Traffik” (www.stopthetraffik.org). At the movie screening, people were made aware of various ways they could fight modern-day slavery, such as the use of child slaves in Africa to harvest cocoa for much of the chocolate we eat. (To find out which brands of chocolate are “traffik free”, click here and follow the menu to to “Good chocolate guide”.)
Mr Keegan said anyone could take action.
”One of the lines in the movie is, ‘Will you use your beautiful voice to praise the Lord or change the world?’,” he said. ”We can do both.”
Lucinda Dooley, a pastor at Hillsong Church and co-ordinator of a pre-screening attended by more than 1300 people on July 25, said the film resonated with the church’s mission. ”One of our mandates [as a church] is to help bring justice to this Earth,” she said.”
From http://www.hillsnews.com.au/2007/08/film_inspires_action.php
But will Hill$ong abolish slavery?
“Developing a great work ethic.
Staff Meeting - Donna Crouch - Tue, Aug 7, 2007
Without a great internal work ethic, we’re wasting our potential. Dreams will stay as just dreams.
We all have a mindset and a set of values about work.
What does God say about work?
1) What’s your job or role?
2) What is the primary role?
3) What does your role add to Hillsong Church?
Developing a great work ethic..
1) God works. Gen 1:1. God found work as ‘creative’. God rested from His work
2) Work is all about what I’ve been called to cultivate. Its in our constitution.
3) The result of sin caused work to be cursed and be from the sweat of our brow. But God didn’t plan it that day.
4) Hard work is not an enemy but a companion of success. Hard work is about achieving outcomes. Have a plan.. Have a todo list, a diary.
5) We are required to excel in our work.”
From http://steveollis.blogspot.com/2007/08/developing-great-work-ethic.html
August 8th, 2007 at 2:17 am
I’m just reading through the comments in the Enough Rope guestbook….and while there’s a few remarks that are worth re-posting …this little own-goal is by far my favourite so far.
http://www2b.abc.net.au/guestbookcentral/list.asp?numtoview=&GuestbookID=181&start=&sort=&filter1=Subject&filter1val=levin&filter2=&filter2val=&filter3=&filter3val=&view=&advanced=&Action=&pagestart=5
“Comment Tanya Levin Part 1 by Kate Allison - 31/07/2007 12:42 AM
To Whom It May Concern,
I have just watched Enough Rope in which Tanya Levin was interviewed. I was greatly disappointed by what I heard her say.
I do not attend Hillsong Church, but I have been to three of the women’s Colour Your World Conferences. I feel that it is important to always evaluate and reflect on yourself, or in this case, your church, to ensure that your actions can be kept accountable. However, I do not feel that Ms Levin did this accurately or truthfully. Ms Levin came across as someone with sour grapes. It seemed to me that regardless of what Hillsong Church do, Ms Levin will always be cynical.
There were several points of Ms Levin’s that I disagree with or feel that she was not telling the whole story. The first point I would like to raise is that of her constant focus on finance. Hillsong Church is not a business, it is a church, therefore the majority of the finances they receive are from giving from the congregation. The whole principle of giving as specified in the Bible is that it is better to give than to receive. Throughout the Bible, it is mentioned that if a person gives then they will be blessed for it. This principle is called sewing what you reap, or as others call it, Karma……….”
August 8th, 2007 at 8:15 am
Hmmm, I know Steve Ollis and he is a lovely lovely guy. He will get his bum smacked for putting staff meeting notes on a blog.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:29 am
I personally agree with what Donna Crouch said re: hard work. That’s exaclty how my father raised me. He told me “your dreams won’t work unless you do”. Nothing wrong with that, or is it just because it came from Hillsong? A good work ethic is a good work ethic, regardless.
Gee, Lance, what will you do if Hillsongers start using code for “hillsong” or other HS words/people? Then how will your search engine find them? All your party tricks will be over then.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:23 am
missed this thread, it’s the only hs one now without a hs logo or a founder- figure brand recognition trigger. that’s FFBRT to the uninitiated. btw has Glass Houses been released yet? I’m really surprised at the lack of impact after all this anticipation. I expected signposts to be awash with leaping and gyrating tracts of copy exposing dark deeds and dodgy personalities. I expected names and places and wobbly secret filming from a briefcase-cam. I expected rampant denunciations from hs central, but none have been forthcoming.
Is the book just boring or only filled with detritus ( ie accumulations formed by the disintegrated material of the gospel) gleaned from the dusty streets of Castle Hill?
What can be the reason for this muted response? maybe it’s because it isn’t officially out there yet, can anyone fill me in?
August 10th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Mn,
You seem to have a destinct lack of commitment to bulls**t.
Those are big questions…..and there may be no easy answers, but at least you are asking the questions.
It is my hope the only landmines you and your family every ’step’ on will be ones that lead to God inspired solutions and ultimate blessing.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Mn,
You seem to have a destinct lack of commitment to bulls**t.
Those are big questions…..and there may be no easy answers, but at least you are asking the questions.
It is my hope the only landmines you and your family ever ’step’ on will be ones that lead to God inspired solutions and ultimate blessing.