hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 11th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Interestingly enough Brian Houston will be a guest speaker at the Azusa St Centrenary! Here is an interesting web article http://www.letusreason.org/Pent57.htm
Houston wil be speaking alongside other notables such as T.D. Jakes – (who denies the Trinity, believes they are three manifestations) Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, Benny Hinn.
Oh how I wish I could be there!
April 11th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
But of course, our Uncle Brian isn’t a liar, or a heretic, or a spiv…he’s just a nice man who’s been misunderstood….awwwwwwwwww…..
*cue violins*
What a crock of shit.
April 11th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Does anyone know the whereabouts now of Pastor Paul?
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA19940512050
CHRISTIAN CITY CHURCH, CANBERRA
Mr COCHRAN (Monaro) [5.30]: I raise a matter on behalf of Bernie and Linda Cabone, constituents of mine of Queanbeyan, which has arisen as a result of their experience with an organisation called the Christian City Church, which moved into the Canberra region some years ago. Under the leadership of Pastor Paul Whittaker the church approached its parishioners to construct a new church in Canberra, calling on the parishioners to raise $1.2 million for that purpose. The parishioners borrowed the $1.2 million from the State Bank using their family homes as security.
Bernie and Linda Cabone, who are average working people in my electorate - they are certainly not wealthy - offered their home as security, as did other members of the parish, as well as contributing $17,000 in cash, a considerable sum that they could ill afford. They had a very strong commitment to the church and, having pledged the security of their home, the contribution of the cash demonstrated their absolute dedication and conviction that the church would be of benefit to the parish and its parishioners.
Needless to say, the church went broke and the parishioners were left with the debt. Pastor Paul Whittaker flew the coup and moved to Sydney. The church disowned the debt, leaving the parishioners to deal with it. Pastor Whittaker should be found and called upon to explain what happened. The church has changed its name, very conveniently, and is now known as the Capital Christian Church, administered by Pastor Carl Cremer, who should also be called upon to explain why the church changed its name and why Pastor Whittaker was not called on to accept responsibility for the debt.
The debt of the church now stands at $2.4 million, but is in the name of the original church and is, therefore, the responsibility of its former parishioners. It might seem confusing to honourable members of this House, but to my constituents Bernie and Linda Cabone it is an absolute catastrophe. The security on their house to safeguard the debt was in the vicinity of $80,000. The State Bank has foreclosed on that debt, but it has been generous enough to reduce to debt to $60,000. Obviously the Cabones do not have that money. They are able to raise about $20,000, but they intend to use that money to fight a legal battle.
The behaviour on behalf of the church is totally unethical and immoral. I question the morality of the church, Pastor Paul Whittaker and all who were involved in the administration of the church. I call on the Minister for Police to assist me in referring this matter to the appropriate authorities for a thorough investigation to establish, first, how a church could con a bank into providing the security of people’s homes - an absolutely extraordinary state of affairs. Bernie and Linda Cabone freely admit that they made an error in judgment. They are Christian enough not to want to criticise the church, but they are very hurt and offended because they have been deserted and have been left with what could be a personal disaster.
One can only wonder what sort of people would become involved in such a ploy: people dedicated to a cause, with Christian values being deserted so as to leave them with personal tragedy. I call on the Minister for Police to assist me in raising this matter with the appropriate authorities, to have it fully investigated and to undertake whatever steps are necessary to restore to the Cabone family the security of their home.
Mr PHILLIPS (Miranda - Minister for Health) [5.35]: I thank the honourable member for Monaro for bringing this very important issue to the attention of the House. On the facts it seems to be a very sad case of a minority Christian church taking advantage of the religious dedication of a group of people who have a commitment to their God and to their Christ, by getting them to commit themselves to a huge debt. It is a sad indictment of any church that would walk away and leave its parishioners with such a debt. I hope there is a legal way in which the Government can pursue this particular organisation to expose it for what it has done and to do something about the debt. It is an issue of grave concern. I assure the honourable member for Monaro that I will have no hesitation in drawing this matter to the attention of the Minister to ensure that an investigation is undertaken so that consideration can be given to what action can be taken.
——————————————————————————–
NSW Legislative Assembly Hansard, 12 May 1994
April 12th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Now that is bad news.
April 12th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Btw, would people here be interested in joining me debate for the faith? There are strong secularist and atheistic arguments and strongholds out there, I could use some Christian support. It would be helpful also to get support from those who hold evangelical views…I encounter much debate for Jesus on Internet forums and I think we could be using some of our time and skills to fight for Jesus in the hearts and minds of non-Christians. Anyone willing to join me?
April 12th, 2006 at 11:07 am
doing so now steve
whats your email
April 12th, 2006 at 11:08 am
my email is:
knightontherock@hotmail.com
Glad to hear you’re on the case.
April 12th, 2006 at 11:51 am
Sent mine too
April 12th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
I’ll send mine too steve…. oh… wait…
April 12th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
Always interesting when the religious right and the political right get into bed with each other.The Australian reports today(11/4/06) that Gloria Jeans (”owned by businessmen Nabi Saleh and peter Irvine who are members of the popular evangelical church Hillsong”) have just signed a deal “to sell News Limited newspapers….. to lift sales among impulse buyers and casual readers”.
Starbucks has a deal with fairfax papers to sell their papers at a heavily discounted price.
April 12th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
hey abtruth, are you AB on radar?
im emblazoned
April 12th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
“The Australian reports today(11/4/06) that Gloria Jeans (”owned by businessmen Nabi Saleh and peter Irvine who are members of the popular evangelical church Hillsong”) have just signed a deal “to sell News Limited newspapers….. to lift sales among impulse buyers and casual readers”.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18779142-643,00.html
Nabi Saleh isn’t just a member, he’s an ‘elder’ at Hillsong.
So you’ve got Hillsong in its media responses, thoroughly denouncing The Australian as joining with political forces in a ‘witch-hunt’ against Hillsong, and now you’ve got a Hillsong elder brokering a deal to sell these ‘anti-Hillsong witch-hunting’ newspapers, so all the customers drinking Gloria Jean’s coffees can more conveniently read about how bad and naughty Hillsong is.
Something doesn’t add up….but …this is Hillsong we’re talking about of course…
Unless of course ..the deal with News Limited is an attempt to wield some editorial influence…..
All eyes are on The Australian..to see if it backs off from Hillsong, under the potential threat of Gloria Jeans withdrawing from its paper-selling deal.
April 13th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Will, buddy, I have something from your response to my question about lament, on the last thread…
” Much of our modern concept of Praise is shaped by images of positive emotive expression, often in the context of feeling good or expressing happiness in public worship. yet the Psalter teaches us that praise in the mode of lament is just as important as praise in the mode of doxology (happy clappy) In fact, there are far more lament Psalms than any other type.
This suggests that our modern ideas of praise as positive emotion are much to narrowly concieved. It also suggests that laments, with all the pain, grief, despair, even anger, they express are just as much acts of worship and faithfullness to God as are the more socially acceptable and popular positive expression of hymns ( rock songs) This fact is a crucial theological truth that is in danger of being lost… the simple fact is, not all of life is positive, but all of life comes under God in these prayers.”
Let me pose a nother question if I may? You wrote in your last response that you “gathered around those who where going through there trials in prayer.” what is it that you prayed for them? what about their expressions of their trials through prayer? what was expressed?
Heres a link for Brian and the rest of us…
http://www.crivoice.org/psa51.html
April 13th, 2006 at 8:00 am
Re: 40 Lance Writes: ““The Australian reports today(11/4/06) that Gloria Jeans (”owned by businessmen Nabi Saleh and peter Irvine who are members of the popular evangelical church Hillsong”) have just signed a deal “to sell News Limited newspapers….. to lift sales among impulse buyers and casual readers”.”
***************
Next Nabi will be cutting deals with Phil and Dan to have SignPosts on a web-kiosk in every Gloria Jeans store.
Of course part of the deal will be to switch off and hide all comments.
April 13th, 2006 at 8:31 am
sorry steve no im not .. whats radar?
April 13th, 2006 at 9:43 am
The Australian church has been ‘audited’.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18798820-7583,00.html
April 13th, 2006 at 10:01 am
“The rapidly rising Pentecostals - despite their consumer-savvy product - have less than 2 per cent of the market”.
April 13th, 2006 at 10:06 am
““The rapidly rising Pentecostals - despite their consumer-savvy product - have less than 2 per cent of the market”.
I always find it laughable when politicians fall all over themselves to make sure they have the vote of the pentys, who number nearly a couple of hundred thousand in Australia.
It’s like the nation’s politicians falling all over themselves to make sure they have the vote of the people of Geelong or Wollongong.
It just doesn’t happen.
The numbers just don’t match the hype….(but then again, nothing about the Hillsong-style churches matches the hype).
Penty churches are the benchmark for over-selling and under-delivering.
April 13th, 2006 at 10:16 am
I’m sending mine too Steve…I don’t know what it is we’re all sending…but I don’t want to get ‘left behind’!
April 13th, 2006 at 10:24 am
It’s not so laughable when you consider that megachurches will vote en bloc more readily than other Christians. It’s like Labor politicians who are vying for preselection paying particular attention to the “ethnic branches”, expecting their members are more likely to vote en bloc.
Guy Sebastian is the classic example of this. If he had been a member of Golden Grove Uniting Ch rather than Paradise, he may not have been the first Australian Idol.
A lot of megachurches are around marginal seats, which makes their votes a bit more valuable. In terms of fed & state politics, the bloc belongs to Family First, and all the major parties can do now is angle for preference deals.
April 13th, 2006 at 11:00 am
This week’s ‘offering’ from Christian City Church.
(Phil Pringle) “We are going to receive our tithe and offering right now, as everybody could get ready to give.
Pat Mesiti is going to come and encourage us with our giving this morning. Thank you very much Pat. God bless you.
(Pat Mesiti) Morning church. (Good morning) Are you excited? (yeah)
You know, Pastor Phil being number one on the podcast does not surprise me, because how many know the favour of God is on this man of God? Can you give me a good ‘amen’?
And you know, after being under his teaching - under his ministry, means the favour of God is on us, because whatever falls on his beard, the oil (PP: “ooh!”) coming down from the beard of our Lord, did you like that? (PP “more oil, more beard”).
I was thinking of growing my moustache, but I’d look too much like my mum’s. (PP:laughter) and my mum wouldn’t really approve.
Turn to the Word now, now that I’ve got your attention.
Church, if you need an offering envelope, please raise your hand.
If you’re giving by credit card - before you fill anything out, can you just let me share for 2 or 3 minutes from the Word of God, because we can just go through the same old motions, you know, of oh, this is my tithe; I’ll just write it out…
And you know, if you want something (inaudible) God before, you’ve got to do something you haven’t done before.
And….that’s how I’ve worked.
And I want to read a passage of scripture from Proverbs Chapter 3:9….it says this…
Honour the Lord….can you all say that with me ‘honour the Lord’ (honour the Lord) with your possessions (with your possessions) ..and the firstfruits (and the firstfruits) of all your increase (of all your increase) …..don’t repeat everything or we’ll be here all day.
But honour the Lord, that literally should be translated there to mean this… value the Lord with your possessions. (PP:’wow’).
Now that’s not talking about the tithe; we get to that in the next portion.
But value the Lord, do you value, do I value the Lord?
You see, I’ve discovered in life that one of the principles of life is this. You can tell how much you value something by the price you’re willing to pay. (PP: ‘that’s the truth)
So to the guy who says to the girl, ‘honey, I’ll climb the highest mountain, swim the deepest ocean, cross raging rivers, but if it’s raining on Sunday can you get your own way to the restaurant.’ Doesn’t really value.
And then I’ve discovered this about value, that in the absense of value, you’ll always argue price.
When you value something you don’t argue over price, you see, the Lord never argued the price of what it would cost to redeem our soul.
And we are here as recipients of God’s value towards us.
We’re the pearl of great price. God never argued….Jesus never argued or debated the issue. He just did it.
And we in turn are asked to value something.
One of those things we’re asked to value…is the House of God.
Can I get an ‘amen’?
And God says in His Word; He says ‘bring the whole tithe’.
Notice it doesn’t say ‘give the tithe’.
It says ‘bring it’.
Because, this may be a shock, but titheing isn’t giving; you can’t give back to God, what’s already His.
You can only take it from him.
And you see, there are some things that God has reserved for Himself, which brings us to the second portion, which says…’and with the firstfruits, ‘everybody say ‘firstfruits’ (firstfruits) …that’s the first portion…it goes way back, way back, way back into Genesis.
This is not law, this is Genesis. This is pre-law, where we get the covenant of marriage from.
And God says ‘honour me…bring to me…the firstfruits…the first portion…the tithe.’
I’ve often wondered, when I’ve read the book of Genesis; God said to Adam and Eve, he said ‘you can have any tree you want, except that one there, that’s mine.’
I wonder if there were ten trees in the garden
April 13th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Jesus H Christ…..that’s unbelievable.
April 13th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Pat did go to Bible College. For two years. I confess that I have the same theological qualifications as Brian Houston and Pat Mesiti.
But I don’t think I was ever taught hermeneutics. Someone willing to teach Pat some hermeneutics? He won’t listen. Remember, in his worldview, he has access to revelations from God. And your learning of the Scriptures are old, stuffy and lifeless if you attempt to restrict the energy and vigour of his ministry.
April 13th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Accidentally hit the ’submit comment’ button too early.
Here, in full…is this week’s ‘offering’ from Christian City Church.
(Phil Pringle) “We are going to receive our tithe and offering right now, as everybody could get ready to give.
Pat Mesiti is going to come and encourage us with our giving this morning. Thank you very much Pat. God bless you.
(Pat Mesiti) Morning church. (Good morning) Are you excited? (yeah)
You know, Pastor Phil being number one on the podcast does not surprise me, because how many know the favour of God is on this man of God? Can you give me a good ‘amen’?
And you know, after being under his teaching - under his ministry, means the favour of God is on us, because whatever falls on his beard, the oil (PP: “ooh!”) coming down from the beard of our Lord, did you like that? (PP “more oil, more beard”).
I was thinking of growing my moustache, but I’d look too much like my mum. (PP:laughter) and my mum wouldn’t really approve.
Turn to the Word now, now that I’ve got your attention.
Church, if you need an offering envelope, please raise your hand.
If you’re giving by credit card - before you fill anything out, can you just let me share for 2 or 3 minutes from the Word of God, because we can just go through the same old motions, you know, of oh, this is my tithe; I’ll just write it out…
And you know, if you want something (inaudible) God before, you’ve got to do something you haven’t done before.
And….that’s how I’ve worked.
And I want to read a passage of scripture from Proverbs Chapter 3:9….it says this…
Honour the Lord….can you all say that with me ‘honour the Lord’ (honour the Lord) with your possessions (with your possessions) ..and the firstfruits (and the firstfruits) of all your increase (of all your increase) …..don’t repeat everything or we’ll be here all day.
But honour the Lord, that literally can be translated there to mean this… value the Lord with your possessions. (PP:’wow’).
Now that’s not talking about the tithe; we get to that in the next portion.
But value the Lord, do you value, do I value the Lord?
You see, I’ve discovered in life that one of the principles of life is this. You can tell how much you value something by the price you’re willing to pay. (PP: ‘that’s the truth’)
So to the guy who says to the girl, ‘honey, I’ll climb the highest mountain, swim the deepest ocean, cross raging rivers, but if it’s raining on Sunday can you get your own way to the restaurant.’
Doesn’t really value.
And then I’ve discovered this about value, that in the absense of value, you’ll always argue price.
When you value something you don’t argue over price, you see, the Lord never argued the price of what it would cost to redeem our soul.
And we are here as recipients of God’s value towards us.
We’re the pearl of great price. God never argued….Jesus never debated the issue. He just did it.
And we in turn are asked to value something.
One of those things we’re asked to value…is the House of God.
Can I get an ‘amen’?
And God says in His Word; He says ‘bring the whole tithe’.
Notice it doesn’t say ‘give the tithe’. It says ‘bring it’.
Because, this may be a shock, but titheing isn’t giving; you can’t give back to God, what’s already His.
You can only take it from him.
And you see, there are some things that God has reserved for Himself, which brings us to the second portion, that says…’and with the firstfruits, ‘everybody say ‘firstfruits’ (firstfruits) …that’s the first portion…it goes way back, way back, way back into Genesis.
This is not law, this is Genesis. This is pre-law, where we get the covenant of marriage from.
And God says ‘honour me…bring to me…the firstfruits…the first portion…the tithe.’
I’ve often wondered, when I’ve read the book of Genesis; when God said to Adam and Eve, he said ‘you can have any tree you want, except that one there, that’s mine.’
I wonder if there was ten trees in the garden.
Folks this morning…I’m going to ask you to honour the Lord, value the Lord with your offering, and bring the Lord his firstfruits, and watch this, here’s what he says……everybody say ’so’ (so) …so your barns will be full.
A little while ago……..how many of you liked that bit in the scriptures?
You see God never asks you to give something where he doesn’t fall back. God is El Sheddai, the God of plenty, not El Cheapo the Lord, the tightwad…
Amen?
Little while ago I was speaking at a church, this was quite awhile ago actually ….(laughter)….we won’t go there…..anyway….
But I remember I was speaking at a church and I received a cheque from a corporate function I spoke at …and the Lord said to me…”I want you to put that in the offering tonight”.
And I went….’but I’ve already tithed and I’ve already given to the building fund ..and I need this’.
And God says ..”well, I need it too”.
And I’m arguing with God and then I got to church late, hoping that the offering would be over with….(laughter).
Don’t laugh at me…some of you do that…
And I get there and the worship’s going on …and then they receive the offering…and the Holy Spirit says to me…”I want you to take that 2 and a half thousand dollar cheque and put it in the offering”….and I said ‘Lord, this is all I’ve got’.
And God said….”well, that’s all you’re gonna have”
He said…”now you have an option……you can keep what’s in your hand..and I’ll keep what’s in mine….or you can let go of what’s in your hand..and I’ll let go of what’s in mine.”
(PP:’powerful’)
Within a month’s time …I was at a meeting..and a man came up to me and said….’this is not for the ministry….this is not for any of the ministries you’re involved with …this cheque is for you…and he gave me a cheque for $25,000 US….
So I got 100 fold ….and the exchange rate…..(PP:’amen) (applause)
Come on church…let’s receive our tithes. I’m gonna hand over to Pastor Phil ..to pray over the offering.
Let’s be generous this morning. Let’s bring our tithe..and let’s bring our first fruits to the Lord. Pastor Phil?
(Phil Pringle) Wonderful, thank you sir, God bless you. Amen. Folks let me pray for you…while you bring your tithes and your offering to the Lord.
Father, we thank you right now as we stand here. People who are trying to buy their homes in Sydney, feeling that the prices are high ….are going to find very real opportunities…for them to break through into a whole new era of living.
People who have got debts they can’t manage…are gonna find ways out of it.
People who are having arguments in their houses over money issues….
Father…you’ll bring solutions.
People will find their way to manage their finances better.
But Lord the foundation of your prosperity in our life…is the tithe.
The opening of windows over our lives…the opening of opportunities and blessing..comes from what we’re doing right now.
So father as we bring this sacred finance to you …we thank you Lord that it unleashes power and principles into our world that are unstoppable.
So thank you for the blessing Father on every gift given right now in Jesus’ name..and everybody said ‘amen’.
God bless as you give folks.
Go ahead ushers, thank you.
If you’re on the internet ..watching today …you can go to the upper right hand corner of your web page and you’ll find a giving area.
And those of you who use the EFTPOS machine…you’re welcome to do so at the end of the service.
If you needed an envelope for your giving…because you didn’t have a newsletter….there’s a tear-off section on that you can get…but if you need an envelope…please make sure you get a hold of one….to fill out the details of your credit card if you’re using a credit card for giving.
Thank you.”
Length of offering talk - 7:50 min.
April 13th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Luke
You dont have to blaspheme to show your disapproval
April 13th, 2006 at 11:45 am
P.S. you can watch Pat Mesiti’s offering talk here….
http://203.89.236.8/ramgen/ccc/09040610am.rm
Offering talk begins 35 mins into the video.
April 13th, 2006 at 11:59 am
So my use of 12 letters is more blasphemous than that talk?
April 13th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
From the Superstition entry in wikipedia:
“A superstition is an irrational belief about the relation between certain actions—often behaviors—and later occurrences, such as the belief that the number 13 causes misfortune or bad luck. Whether a belief is superstitious is not defined by the “truth” of the result, however, but by the methods through which truth is sought. Superstitions are often based on invalid reasoning resulting from misunderstandings of causality or statistics, while others spring from unenlightened fears, religious beliefs, traditions, and a general belief in the supernatural.
The superstitious individual erroneously believes that the future, or the outcome of certain events, can be influenced by certain specified behaviors, despite the lack of a causal relationship in reality. Many superstitions are based on the notion of luck….”
April 13th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Error never shows itself in its naked reality, in order not to be discovered. On the contrary, it dresses elegantly, so that the unwary may be led to believe that it is more truthful than truth itself.
April 13th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
“But I don’t think I was ever taught hermeneutics. Someone willing to teach Pat some hermeneutics? He won’t listen. Remember, in his worldview, he has access to revelations from God. And your learning of the Scriptures are old, stuffy and lifeless if you attempt to restrict the energy and vigour of his ministry”.
Good comment.
Sounds terribly familiar to some teachers whose doctrines I have been dissecting of late.
As professional Bible teachers these guys are responsible for what they teach. If they do not use accepted practices then they should be found professionally negligent for malpractice.