hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
September 18th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
I think it means ‘no media’……because when journo’s have been trying to get comment or financial details from CCC in recent months….the answer has been ….’nyet’.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
SilentBob,
Thanks for replying.
Re: “your suggestion that more time is devoted to speaking about tithing than any other topic is completely unjustified and is factually inaccurate. based on the average service length of 90 minutes, your numbers are plainly incorrect”
What is the length of the teaching in you service? It aint 90 minutes! What other topic on “Christian Living” gets as much attention as “Tithing”? Is Tithing pert of the agreement, or a ‘qualification for Leadership?’ that you sign-up to in order to become a Partner or Leader in the church (though it is not mentioned as a qulaification for leadership in Titus or Timothy?).
If you were in a Church, and not a family controlled business, or a cult , then that information would be provided to you in accordance with the ‘laws of the land’ and more importantly as a sign of respect and integrity for members of the Church .
If you were in a Church, not a cult or a business, then you would be given detailed financials, there would be an AGM where you could publically ask questions regarding the financials. You would know where the money is going. The amount of money paid to the minister and his family would be transparent.
On the topic of speakers = TD Jakes in non-trinitarian, a one-ness pentecostal. That may not make any difference to you, but Trinity is a core Christian doctrine, fought earnestly to be preserved from the Ecumeniacl Council of Nicea, and embedded in our creeds to preserve our theological integrity. If doctrine is not important why has the Christian church gone to such great lengths to preserve Truth? Why then does Pringle host a ‘heretic’ to preach?
With regard to Benny Hinn … Well I don’t have time but you can find out all about him here:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_miracles.html
You will notice that in the following spreadsheet that even Peter Popoff, who has been exposed for fraud is still operating with a $425K salary.
http://www.prettygoodnews.com/form_990/hagee_spreadsheet.pdf
Why, because people do not do their homework, do not read their Bibles, and do not ask questions!. These Leaders ‘know how to play the game’? The whole Business is based upon emotions and experiences. They know this, they exploit it and profit from this!
Silent Bob - Do you not have the courage to ask the questions that I have posed regarding CCC’s finances? Do feel intimidtated? That is the sign of being involved in a cult. This information should rightfully be yours as a “partner” in your Church! It would be if you were in a Church and not a family controlled Business or a Cult!
I am not being mean to you mate…Its just that you need to take the red pill, ‘wake-up’ and escape the Matrix!
Be diligent! Be astute! Be like the Berans in Act 17:11. Ask questions and work out how the multi=level marketing ‘system works’ and what is going on! It is the Truth that will set you free!
September 18th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
an average preach is approximately 30 to 40 minutes in any given service.
praise and worship approx. 20 - 30 minutes
altar call approx. 10 - 15 minutes.
everything else including tithing is fit in using the rest.
CCC is run by a board of directors, not the pringle family.
to be honest, i have never needed an explanation as to where my tithes go. i see it in the buildings around me, the quality of the fittings etc, and the work the church does in the community. Most pastors on staff work two jobs. they don’t draw salaries of any real significance. as for phil pringle, he is an artist and his paintings sell all over the world. he is an author and his books (and his wife’s) are printed and sold all over the world by reputable publishers. and he is a songwriter (Fear Not, Binding The Strongman as someone was enquiring here earlier) and a speaker at other churches all over the world.
not sure how/why you have referred to it as multi-level marketing?
you make so much noise about tithing but you forget that people do it voluntarily. never have i been in a situation where i have been coerced or pressured into giving. i give because i can and because i have the opportunity, through ccc, or world vision etc, to make a difference in someone else’s life.
with regards to the agm/financial reports etc… i will get back to you. i’m not able to answer you on those points at the moment.
September 18th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
“never have i been in a situation where i have been coerced or pressured into giving.”
Now does everybody understand why I do the transcripts of the offering talks, so when the CCC member like silentbob lies, you can just point them straight to the transcripts.
September 18th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
i beg your pardon lance, but i have not lied.
i personally have not felt pressure. you cannot possibly claim that is a lie without being me. you may interpret what you hear as pressure but i do not.
polygraph me anytime.
September 18th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
SilentBob,
You evade the point.
You should be free to get the financials to find out where the money really goes.
Who is on the Board of Directors? How are they appointed? What role do partners play in the basics such as voting and attending AGM’s and being given financials? Why are they financials not available like the vast majority of Churches and Charities? Have you got a copy of your Churches “Articles of Association” …. haveyou read what rights a “partner” has … you will find none …. zippo!
How come so many of these Churches get so easily passeddown the family line? Houston, Baker, Eavns, Olsteen, Hagin, Roberts, Hinn etc. They are effectuvely family controlled Businesses. Do your homework mate.
Just ask for the financials….
Work out how Amway works … itsa multi-level marketing Business. People join to make a new income stream … it effectively saps money from their existing income stream … as people are ‘influenced’ to attend conferences, hear speakers, buy books and tapes that “will change their life”. The only people making real money are the ‘uplines’ through the sale of ‘resoucres’ and money recieved on the ’speaking circuit’.
Where do you think Mr Amway, pat Mesiti made the money to pay for his hige house and lexus?
Sure there is nice buildings and stuff. Kenneth Copeland has a nice new plane. So What!
The speaking circuit is big business. The bigger and better and nicer your church,more will come, more will pay - and the more (reciprical) invitations you will recieve to speak at other like churches (who will pay you a nice fee into your tax-effective ministry enetity).
http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/Gospel%20of%20Wealth%20a%20Ponzi%20Scheme.htm
September 18th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Silent Bob,
How different are you from anyone of these people in Marjoe Gorrtnors audience?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHqKI4X8bA&mode=related&search
This is why the questions we are asking are important.
September 18th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
And Silent Bob …
Here is Peter Popoff, Mr $425K per annum and still in ministry…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV90zKd_SaU&mode=related&search=
I challenge Tithing because it is the litmus test of integrity for these Teachers. The way that it is leveraged and tught is false teaching. Period.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
i watched the marjoe vide and my stomach turned. there is no excuse for what that man did. but phil pringle does not do that. phil does not take a salary from the church at all, the rise and build and tithing of staff members is not public knowledge and phil does not have anything to do with it. that’s a fact.
for me, tithing is not about giving to a man or an organisation. i’m giving to god. even if it is fraudulently dealt with, i have still given to god and stand with a clean conscience knowing my heart and motives were pure in the giving. i want to bless god. he sees that. that’s all that matters to me. it’s a me and god transaction. that’s what is important to me.
i just think nothing i say will ever make a difference here. i don’t know why the financial details are not available but i know phil pringle and the leaders of ccc are men of integrity and nothing illegal is happening. if it was the ato would be on it like a fat kid on cake.
i’m not going to say anything else. say what you will, it’s ok. maybe when the last soul is saved then we can talk and split hairs about this or that, but until then, there’s work to do.
i wish you all the best but i can’t be a part of this. jesus never argued with the pharisees, and nor will i.
take care and be blessed.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
SilentBob
For what ever reason, you have clearly demonstrated that the adherents of these Groups will not separate the emotion from the facts.
You will not even get into the detail. You are not interested in following Jesus becuase you don’t have the courage to persue the Truth. Jesus is the Truth.
I rest my case. Keep muncing on the ‘Blue Pill’ and everything will reamin the same for you inside the Matrix.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
SB asserts: “. i’m giving to god. even if it is fraudulently dealt with…”
Hmmm. Where does good stewradship end?
Be as wise as serpents but as innocent as doves.
The fool and his money ares soon parted.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
“even if it is fraudulently dealt with, i have still given to god and stand with a clean conscience knowing my heart and motives were pure in the giving.”
But your conscience is not clear and your heart is not pure…because you’re now implicated in a conspiracy to defraud.
You know about the fraud, but turn a blind eye.
In the real world…it’s called ‘corruption’.
September 18th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
“I don’t know why the financial details are not available”
>>Because they don’t want the world to see the flow of “unjustifiable amounts of money” from your tithes to the Pastors own tax-effectivefamily trust via the speaking circuit…
“but i know phil pringle and the leaders of ccc are men of integrity and nothing illegal is happening if it was the ato would be on it like a fat kid on cake.”.
>> As we have said before … nothing illegal is going on in terms of the laws of the land. These boys, like the Scientologists know just how to comply with the law and leverage to their advantage priveledges available to Churches in ways they were never intended to be. There is a big difference between “the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law”.
SilentBob - If the Business Review Weekly and the rest of the world can see what’s going on here then whay can’y you?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/hillsong/hillsong10.html
Remember, Marjoes’ crowd of followers would have though that this man, Marjoe is a man of integrity and God’s annointed. How do you know the difference unless you ask the hard questions. We have.
September 18th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Now I know why you call yourself “Silent Bob” …
“Hear No evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil”…
Remember, Evil prevails when good men do nothing, SilentBob.
September 18th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
Bob - hopefully you’re still reading… Mate I hear your heart in all of this and I am reminded of myself. I too thought that by giving money to CCC I was infact “giving to God”.
But Bob, that is scripturally not what God is after. He does not want or desire your money… God is a spirit Bob and spirits have no use for material things. Spirits want spiritual things, not physical things -
John 4.24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”
Peter esposes this same truth in his writings Bob -
1 Peter 2.5 “You also as living stones are being built a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ”
Bob, Pringle has confused both himself and the congregation into thinking that God desires your money. He’s mixed O.T thinking in with the new wine of the spirit. The result is that the wine skin ends up bursting… You cannot put Old wine into New wine skins.
Is there anything wrong with giving money to a religious institution? No, not really. But don’t try and grand-stand by claiming that you’re “giving to God”, you are not. God already owns everything you see so what makes you think you can possibly give him anything?
Now as for “…never have I been in a situation where I have been coerced or pressured into giving…”
Why is it that Pringle claims in page 61 of his book “Keys to Financial Excellence” that if we do not tithe our income we are “under a curse”?
That is a big claim Bob and certainly in my opinion is an aggresive pressure-type statement designed to fear-monger people into this practice.
He also blatantly lies throughout his book in relation to tithing.
Pringle claims that “Jacob tithed” (page 58). However if you read the scripture you will see that Jacob said he WOULD tithe if God met some of his demands. There is no indication however that Jacob actually did so…
You can’t have it both ways Bob. Either God demands the tithe and will curse his people if they don’t or he does not want it. Which one is it?
And don’t call tithing giving, they are NOT interchangable terms. Tithing is a regualted specific amount that dictates what you give - it is LAW. Giving is free of restraint and specifics…
WIGGY
September 18th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
Bob you said this - “…Jesus never argued with the pharisees…”
Have you read Matthew 23 Bob?
The whole chapter is Christ calling the Pharisees all manner of names - “Serpents”, “Offspring of vipers”, “Fools and blind”, “Hypocrites”.
But you said he never argued with the Pharisees… Please explain what you mean there.
WIGGY
September 18th, 2006 at 9:54 pm
oh, nice.
yeah, that’ll convince him that we’re good christians that should be listened to…
September 19th, 2006 at 3:02 am
“God is a spirit Bob and spirits have no use for material things. Spirits want spiritual things, not physical things.”
I like that.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:12 am
There really is a line between cogent argument and bullying. Nice work christian soldiers you must be real proud.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:47 am
Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how the Waterloo H/S ( formerly sydney clc) has changed in it’s spirit and focus now it’s been under Brian Houston’s control for some years?
September 19th, 2006 at 10:15 am
please do not interpret this post as a response to the previous few posts.
it is simply honouring my word.
as promised here is the information regarding ccc oxford falls disclosure of financial details and the ability of church members to communicate concerns directly to leadership.
1a) CCC articles of association do not require an AGM. As a not for
profit limited company it is structured so that the Executive Board
members are legally personally and severally liable in the event that
CCC cannot meet its financial commitments - the membership are not
held accountable financially.
1b) CCC members have a variety of other ongoing avenues of
communication to the central church leadership, as opposed to one
AGM. These include direct contact with the senior and associate
senior ministers by appointment, phone, letter and email, and to
other ministers and pastors in the same way. In fact - most of the
primary day to day work activity of pastors is engaging in this very
activity. D group and C group structures as part of networks -
particularly D groups - serve as monthly forums for communication.
Concerns and questions of members are raised directly every week in a
meeting called the Pastoral Management Meeting chaired by Greg French
and managed through this process rather than in a large single public
meeting.
2) CCC accounts are audited annually by an independent auditor. The
results of that audit and the financial statements are published
annually and made available to church members - this notification
occurs during the relevant church services where the annual reports
are made available.
i’ve done what i said i would.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
SilentBob - cheers for responding.
Mate as for the info you have provided I would have to say that as a former member of CCC a lot of what you have posted is misleading.
With regards to 1b I find that statement very untrue.
General staff Pastors are very hard to get a hold of (if at all) and rarely return phone calls and/or emails.
The basic low-maitenance cell group attending pleb would have next to no chance getting hold of “senior and associate senior ministers”. They’re all too busy with School of Ministry or working the speaking circuit.
When “concerns and questions” are raised there is certainly an unspoken vibe that goes on. More often than not people are told that “we’ll look into that for you and get back to you”. But it just never happens and in every case I know of the issue gets dismissed or swept under the carpet. I know this from personal experience.
With regards to 2 - That statement provided by you I believe is very misleading. Anything provided to the general pleb would be an extremely broad overall view of where money is being spent and hardly a detailed expose. Example would be something like Staff Wages = $X, Bulding maitenance = $X, advertsing = $X etc
I appreicate you have tried Silentbob and for what it’s worth I also appreciate you taking the time to post on this thread and give us your POV. Feel free to respond Bob
WIGGY
September 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Thanks Silent Bob.
I apologise if we seemed harsh before. That is a more appropraitte response.
1a) I do not believe that a Governance structure requires total power to rest with the Senior Pastor and the Board in order to avoid financial liabilities on Members.
The only financial liability on Members should occur when Members act as personal guarantors over lending. That would be like saying that the Members of the NRMA or RA CV or Medibank Private are personally liable for the finances of those Groups. Their Members have all the same avenues of communication, and yet are compelled to issue financials to all Members and have an AGM.
2) I am happy to hear that the accounts are audited, just like Enron, HIH, Home Building Soceity - they were all audited.
None the less could you please contact me and send me a copy of the financials for all CCC Oxford Hall related entities that you are privy too as a Church partner and also a copy of the articles of association.
Silent Bob, Let’s be astute and get right into the detail.
clan.mackenzie@bigpond.com
September 20th, 2006 at 12:15 am
Anais Says:
Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how the Waterloo H/S ( formerly sydney clc) has changed in it’s spirit and focus now it’s been under Brian Houston’s control for some years?
avb says…… Anais…..i think you can trust you own judgment on that.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Anthony, I haven’t visited that church (Sydney clc) in quite a few years. I have fond memories. It always seemed more into accepting diversity and a less pretentious vibe. That was my perception and experience.
(BTW:- I loved your book. Thank you for writing it, it’s truly a gift to us queers inside and outside of christendom.. and to many others. Thank you for the courage to tell your truths. I celebrate your healing and realizations..)
September 20th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Hey Anias - I thought you were dead along with Saphira…wow long time no see
September 20th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
“Joel Houston: I started playing when I was 13. We started a youth band—it was the beginnings of United. I started playing the piano, and I was horrible; I couldn’t even do chords. Then I moved into guitar. But since there was no bass player, I did that instead because I was probably the least talented guitarist out of the three that we had. I started writing song. When I was 18, I started to see worship as a cool thing, so I started writing worship songs. And our church at that point started building quite a reputation for praise and worship. So I was fortunate enough to be in a place where there was a platform for the songs I was writing.
So I went from the keyboardist that couldn’t even play keys, to the guitarist who wasn’t good enough to play guitar, to the bass player who was playing bass because he wasn’t good enough at guitar, to one of the songwriters, to one of the worship leaders.
From http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/interviews/2005/hillsong-1005.html
(Of course being the Senior Pastor’s son was pure coincidence)
September 20th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
I’ve been looking over the Q and A to “Silent Bob”…
Tip from a former teacher: shifting attitutes and beliefs usually takes a lot of time.
Think about it Wiggy… how long did it take you really from your first misgivings about CCC to seeing things the way you do now, and leaving? 2 days? How about you Lance in terms of leaving… was it “Revenue”?
“I apologise if we seemed harsh.” Seemed? In the space of a couple of days, Silent Bob was treated to “You are not interested in following Jesus”, “your conscience is not clear and your heart is not pure”, accused of lying, munching on the blue pill, etc. etc. because he wasn’t ready to instantly agree with you on everything.
Would it be so bad to ask a question or two in a gracious way and give him time to process this? There seems to be a level of emotion released that might be appropriate if directed to those at the top… but not toward an ordinary church member.
Silent Bob has probably dismissed all of you as a pack of a***holes by now. This isn’t true… you all mean well, you’re concerned for God’s church, and you’re intelligent. That’s not the same thing as being wise…
A little restraint toward the next “Silent Bob” who writes on Signposts wouldn’t go astray. You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar as the saying goes.
September 20th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
But remember…we’re also dealing with cult members…not rational reasoning people…who are not swayed by the most blatant and obvious logic and truth.
People who will loudly applaud a church minister who admits to being a paedophile…
People who will still support their local pastor…long after he’s been jailed for fraud (not a ‘visit those in prison’ type benevolent support….but a ‘they never did anything wrong’ type support).
Reason and rationality is not good enough for unreasonable and irrational church people.
Silentbob has displayed some signs of rationality…..but there’s some very irrational stuff there….(like continuing to give money solicited by a guy he knows to be a fraud)
How can rational arguments and facts alone ….win over irrational people?
September 20th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
You are right Janet. My response was abrasive, and upon reading I do appear as an A***hole.
Sorry SIlentBob, if I hurt you. Forgive me.
We are only trying to point out the facts. Sometimes our response is purely frustration with the emotional, illogical responses that we recieve from people inside these groups.
Lance is correct in that we need to separte the emotions from the facts. And when you are ‘connected’ with these groups, and hevae invested much into them psychologically, spiritually, monetrailiy and timewise. It hurts when you see that Spritual Leaders do (intentionally or unintentionally) abuse people and at times go to great lengths to decieve.
Hopefully, judging by the email Phil baker circulated re New Churches Network, things may be changing, atleast with Riverview.
There is always hurt with growing pains.