hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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September 20th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
Thanks for posting Janet, you had some good things to say there.
In my defence I don’t think I attacked Bob personally and I didn’t use any of the insults you quoted but you are right - it does take time for the deception to come off. In my experience it comes off in layers, a lot like an onion. Bob if I’ve offended you mate I apologise.
Hopefully however we have given Bob something to think about? I do sincerely hope that is the case… I know in my experience I was incredibly naive and just plain gullible and it wasn’t until some much older and wiser people asked me some hard questions that I began to think about what was really going on.
WIGGY
September 20th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
There’s a chance Silent Bob was open to all your comments and benefited… there are some people in the world who respond well to robust confrontation. Some.
On the law of averages… most people would be more receptive if the “vibe” is: “I’m really concerned about you and your welfare, and I invite you to explore these questions and get back to me”…
More so than a vibe: “You’re a fool, closed-minded, and not a real Christian if you don’t agree with me immediately”.
No, you didn’t use personal abuse Wiggy… I just wanted to highlight that your escape from CCC was not an immediate thing… it never is! I also think “dumping the truck” (ie a mountain of information all at once) is likely to be overwhelming and make someone defensive… sharing your story is less confrontational as an opener.
Lance… if someone really is in a cult, don’t cult members develop the feeling that everyone is against them and the only safe place is in the cult? Is going on the attack likely to work? (Difficult for anything to “work” if it really is a cult of course.)
LF… grace to you.
I’m not saying I’m right… this is just my opinion. Passion is a good thing… wisdom is good too.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
“I know in my experience I was incredibly naive and just plain gullible and it wasn’t until some much older and wiser people asked me some hard questions that I began to think about what was really going on.”
It’s like people are in a hypnotic trance…and need to be snapped out of it.
I know…I was in that hypnotic trance at Churchlands Christian Fellowship ..until it was becoming increasingly obvious that the actions weren’t matching the rhetoric from the stage.
I never got into that hyponotic trance and Phil Baker’s Revenue Church, because from about day 3…it was doing the complete obvious of what they were saying they would do…..so it was more just confusion..than the trance-like state of Churchlands.
But while you’re in that hyponotic trance….and wanting desperately to believe what they’re saying…even though it obviously isn’t true….that logic and reason alone won’t change your irrational thinking.
It would be nice though if you could sit in front of someone from CCC or any of these churches..and say….’on the count of three….you’ll be wide awake…..1….2…3 (snap) …wide awake’…
People who’ve been hypnotised say they were completely aware of their surroundings…but that their beliefs had changed while hyponotised (’I really thought I was a garden sprinkler/stripper/idling four-wheel-drive while I was under’ etc) …and maybe the ‘contemporary’ church is a form of slow-forming hypnosis..and it’s only something obvious and very in-their-face..that arouses them from the slowly-formed hyponotic state.
A good example would be our possum dragger Daniel Korocz from CCC…who thought he was bullet proof ..like all the other young CCC arrogant shits…and an arrest and a court appearance ’snapped’ him out of the CCC culture’s hypnotic state of bullet-proof arrogance.
I mean how can a grown man say he can a clear conscience giving money to something or someone he knows to be fraudulent…without being under some kind of hypnotic belief effect?
September 20th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
“if someone really is in a cult, don’t cult members develop the feeling that everyone is against them and the only safe place is in the cult? Is going on the attack likely to work?”
The cult-leader has already put an abusive voice inside the cult member’s head….so they’re conditioned to respond to certain types of abusive voices.
I think the ‘good cop/bad cop’ approach works best.
You need someone who is as inflexible and rigid as the cult leader…. who can speak with a different voice inside the cult member’s head… so the cult member thinks…’hmmm….there are two strong voices inside my head….both seem to be right….but they’re saying different things.’
So the bad cop does the dirty work…jolts the cult member into questioning things….and then you get the ‘good cop’….through which the cult member can exchange in reasonable dialogue…because he’s not ‘bad’ like that ‘bad cop’.
I use this all the time at Signposts with great effect.
I’m the ‘bad cop’ or the drill sergeant..who gets in cult member’s faces..and break them down……and then the cult member says to someone like Lionfish or Wiggy or whoever…’I'll talk to you…because you’re not horrible like Lance’.
My approach does not work on its own and in and of itself…but with great effect in company with ‘good cops’.
Jesus was a ‘bad cop’ with those who were hardened legalists…but was a ‘good cop’ to those who had faith.
Sydney Anglicans…..CCC and Hill$ong are the legalistic money-men and/or worship Nazi’s of our day..and they need a rocket put up them by a bad cop.
I’ve never said a word here against common garden variety suburban churches (except those with wanker pastors) or parachurch ministries (except the Youth Alive wankers) because by and large I think they’re doing a good job….but as for the arrogant shits running the megachurches and the ‘contemporary worship’ enclaves….they need a ‘bad cop’ poking a nightstick into their ribs urgently.
September 20th, 2006 at 10:11 pm
And by being a ‘bad cop’ with Phil Baker..it’s taught him the long-needed lesson of humility before God’….(or as he called it….’having egg on his face’)…and maybe his arrogant shittyness will drop down a notch (maybe for a week) …and its taught him that just because something is doable..that doesn’t mean you do it…(it would be good if he applied that to the tithing sermons each week and the ‘turn to the person next to you and tell them they’re beautiful’ routine…and to running a business through a supposedly non-profit incorporation association )….but…one-step at a time when you’re dealing with a recalcitrant pastor.
I’ve got much further than if I’d tried to talk to him nicely in a pastor’s office surrounded by oak book cases..with him in a leather swivel chair nodding politely and then doing nothing about it…the way most pastors deal with anybody’s concerns.
September 20th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
If someone had been a ‘bad cop’ with Brian Tamaki in NZ early in the piece….the ‘Bishop’ wouldn’t be out of control like he is now.
September 21st, 2006 at 8:00 am
OK… frankly Lance, half the fun of Signposts is you playing bad cop. It’s very funny amongst other things!
I don’t think LF knew he was supposed to play good cop in this instance… Silent Bob was treated to bad cop - bad cop.
I still think giving someone a little homework assignment (eg. I can find out the salary of my pastor as can any member of our church… can you please find out for us what PP’s salary is and get back to us?) and giving them some time to work on it is likely to work better than “dumping the whole truckload.” A week or two later it could be taken a bit further (”Well thanks for trying… have you considered this? Can you find out this for us?) Experiencing the difficulties themselves teaches a whole lot more than hearing someone they don’t know from Adam having a rant.
Wiggy sharing a personal experience is undeniable, whereas it’s easy to get defensive and argue against an general allegation.
This is just my opinion… I’m not an expert cult-buster! I think it’s a big ask, actually.
September 21st, 2006 at 8:08 am
Janet,
One issue we have is that as soon as we ask people to do an “assignment” typicall they ‘chicken’ out.
Steve/Emblazoned was the only advocate who had the courage to meet directly with Hillsong, and they gave him a ‘bum - steer’.
Peter cook(?) from Youth Alive, mad an appearance ranting and raving about Lances comments, I was ‘nice’ and requested that he contact me to provide me with financial details for Youth Alive.
My experience has been that any request for information (”assignments”) has the same effect of wearing a necklace of garlic around ones neck when dealing with Vampires … they simply fold and leave.
September 21st, 2006 at 8:09 am
Should read “I was ‘nice’ and requested that he contact me to provide me with financial details for Youth Alive - we never heard from him again”.
September 21st, 2006 at 10:19 am
This is my last post because I feel I need to clarify something.
Lance said,
“I mean how can a grown man say he can have a clear conscience giving money to something or someone he knows to be fraudulent…without being under some kind of hypnotic belief effect?”
I never said that I ‘know it’s fraudulent’. I’m sure what you’re referring to is when I said “even if it is/was being dealt with I would still give”. That was simply a hypothetical ‘if it was’.
I DO NOT have any concerns that CCC Oxford Falls mishandles it’s money or acts fraudulently in any way whatsoever. Lance, you have misinterpreted but I’m sure you’ll find another way to twist what I have said to suit your own ends. You have no evidence other than speculation and hearsay and it simply is not enough to a) give you any credibilty whatsoever or b) stand up in a court of law. You end up coming across as a whinging child having a tantrum because you can’t get what you want.
For what it’s worth, I work in the media too, though I do draw a large line of distinction between Lance’s “media” and my media. Thanks for all those blue pill/red pill analogies, I’m quite well versed in all things Matrix having worked extensively on all three films. All of you probably see my work every week in cinemas and on tv without realising it. I have a high degree of skill, both client and technical and am by no means a simpleton. I make my own informed decisions. I surround myself with like minded people in my professional world because we get things done. That same thinking applies to my personal world.
What I see here, for the most part, is a classic case of 1 Corinthians 3:18:
“Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men.”
or as the message puts it:
“Don’t fool yourself. Don’t think that you can be wise merely by being up-to-date with the times. Be God’s fool—that’s the path to true wisdom. What the world calls smart, God calls stupid. It’s written in Scripture,
He exposes the chicanery of the chic. The Master sees through the smoke screens of the know-it-alls.”
I will give my life for a cause, the cause of Christ. If you’re not with me then I will keep going without you.
Blessing to you all.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:50 am
“You have no evidence other than speculation and hearsay and it simply is not enough to a) give you any credibilty whatsoever or b) stand up in a court of law. You end up coming across as a whinging child having a tantrum because you can’t get what you want.”
I thought Phil Pringle said he wanted you to be the friendliest church in Sydney.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:54 am
Silentbob…have you had a 100% return on the money you’ve given ‘to God’, as guaranteed by Phil Pringle?
(Don’t reply ‘Phil never said that’ because I’ve got the transcripts)
September 21st, 2006 at 2:42 pm
SilentBob,
Thanks for your final reply.Nobody said that you were a simpleton ot had no level of technical competency.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but we realise that there are plenty of ’smart’ people in CCC Oxford Halls, and Hillsong etc. As there are plenty of smart and well qualified people in the JW’s, Mormon’s, Scentology (eg. Tom Cruise, Johm Travolta). There we also plenty of smart people in Jim Jones sect (Jonestown) - a break-off from
Think about it. I was like you, connected to these Churches. I studied deep and hard after the BRW article God’s Millionairres came out. I contacted journalists to verify conflicting media statements made by Senior Pastors. I contacted the Churches and asked for information. I studied there theology … especially tithing and it came up wanting. I examined their Governance structures and had got advice from DOCEP about the structures of the Church and what that means fro me the ’spiritual consumer’.
I have done my homework. I have heard that quote “be a fool for Christ” verse taken out of context and quoted so many times by adherents from these groups.
They are quick to forget that the scriptures commended the character of the Bereans for doing their home work (Acts 17:11). Jesus aslo gave many commendations to people who ’searched for him for all thir hearts” and told people to “love God with all you heart, your MIND and your soul”. He also said the “TRUTH will set you free”.
SilentBob, I implore you to have the courage to lay aside your emotions, do your homework, don’t be a fool for Pringle (that’s quite different from being a fool for Christ) … the Bible says ‘false prohets will arise and many will be dceieved - EVEN God’d elect”
Unfortunatly, as technicall competent and creative as you are have typically ignored all the issues at hand.
Please, and I say this respectfully, be like a Berean and do your homework.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
SilentBob,
I would aslo add that’s its great that you have worked on the Matrix. Then you should understand that ‘taking the red pill’ is purely a metaphor for doing the work necesary to come to a logical conclusion about “how the system works”.
It takes effort, it hurts …
I am not saying do not follow Jesus, in fact, I implore you to pick up your cross and follow him.
We are not “the enemy”, I believe totally that salvation comes through Christ alone, Bonefide, orthodox Christainity - the Real thing, is different from the prsoperity driven message preached for profit and gain by these guys (As Jesus, St Paul and St Peter warned throughout the NT).
If you have the courage to dig deeper, please contact me and I will give you things to think about. I just can’t do all the homework “”take the red pill” for you. That is isomething that you will have to do alone.
September 22nd, 2006 at 7:54 am
SilentBob - I’d like to echo the sentiments of LionFish.
Thanks for posting and I do hope you dig a little deeper and not take at face value what you are fed from the pulpit each week. Take it from an ex-staff member, there is a lot more to the story than you care to think.
Interesting that you quoted 1 Cor 3.18 where Paul ius talking about being “wise in this world”.
Do you not see the correlation between that statement of Paul’s and what is going on with the contemporary church these days?
More and more we are seeing Pastors forsake the biblical role model of a servant for that of a highly paid secular CEO type leader.
We have seen HS try to muscle it’s way in to the political arena and Pringle made a statement just last week where he admitted he was trying to get the numbers to look good enough on paper so that CCC can get it’s share of Gov grants. And still the question on everyone’s lips is “where is the money going?” Like it or not Bob, Paul is saying in 1 Cor 3.18 that God’s way of running things is a far cry from the world’s way. We “die to self” and we “seek first the kingdom”.
Someone who cared enough to say something to me when I was heavily involved said this - “You realise that you’re paying for Phil Pringle’s lifestyle don’t you? Do you think if you get behind in your rent or miss a car payment that he’s going to help you out?”
This got me thinking Bob about the atrocious double-standards going on up there. Phil last week in his offering message was talking about people being like dogs straining at their collars and not being happy with what they’ve got. But hang on, why can’t they be happy with what they’ve got? Do they really need a “prayer building”? Why the constant push for money every single week and in every single meeting? Why does Phil need to drive the latest Audi worth 250k?
Ask the questions Bob - remember actions define belief. If you really believe that the money of being well spent then take action to see that it really is.
WIGGY
September 22nd, 2006 at 9:31 am
I would say fellas that the reasonable softly softly approach is a little late - Silentbob be silent on signposts forever me thinks!
From time to time we have these little splurges of attacking before we think about being hospitable - would we argue like this face to face - SB showed everysign of being anmother intelligent thinker like some we;’ve enco9ntered previously - but he will now go out and confirm for people who may have heard about the “Hillsong/CCC bashing site” that we are not compassionate and are here to rip people apart - which we’re not and which you guys are not.
We fail to be what we want to be when we carry on like we have in this instance.
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:15 pm
“(Don’t reply ‘Phil never said that’ because I’ve got the transcripts) ”
- and this bad cop’s not afraid to use ‘em!!
(bad cop indeed… you make it sound strategied!)
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:17 pm
(that would have been so much more funny if I’d spelt ’strategised’ a little more correctly…)
he walks slowly off towards stage left. The audience, in some bewilderment as to how they should respond, are simply silent…
…it was probably the best way to respond…
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:50 pm
small round of applause ..
September 22nd, 2006 at 1:16 pm
(Quietly humbled, the failed jester hesitantly takes 2 steps back onto the stage, unsure as to what he should do. The crowd, in tears over this shocking display of humility and self-depreciation, each start to applaud more loudly; intangibly at 1st, until there is an outpouring of love that culminates in the crowd rising to their feet. He is THEIR jester. He is THEIR voice.
And he loves it!!
… and writes a book & embarks on a speaking campaign across several 1st world nations…
… he has become an icon
September 22nd, 2006 at 3:56 pm
and then he wakes up
September 22nd, 2006 at 4:23 pm
nah, won’t have it .. that’s the storyteller’s cop out, lamest ending in the book ..
something more like they were venerating the icon of a jester, but he found he had become a mere 2 dimensional person, and somewhere along the way he had been framed ..
September 22nd, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No, the book-writing icon, proud of his humility, continued in the heady life of socialites, drugs and hard liquor, until one day, tragedy befell him.
Whilst busy talking to a UK talk-show host, an assistant told him that his (now) ex-wife and child were killed in a traffic accident.
He takes a few minutes to let this news sink in. He is only 1/2 way through the interview in front of a live audience (they always ask him to do the ‘walk off then hesitently come back on’ routine) and his reaction will be pivotal. In fact, this is the moment he has been dreading - when he will need to react to a situation so gut-wrenching that he may well be exposed and left vulnerable. For a long time now, he has lived as a hero. Perhaps an anti-hero (or accidental hero) to start with, but he had spent the last part of his life very much in control.
It was the final test.
September 23rd, 2006 at 12:53 am
I posted a comment (629) a week or so ago, asking about HopeCityChurch here in the UK, regarding its origins and whether they were part of a Hill$ong network. Oddly enough they have (almost) answered my question themselves, as they have recently redesigned their website, and they now confirm that they are associated with the Hill$ong network (Australia), AoG (UK & Australia) & the Evengelical Alliance.
One article on their new-look site is
http://www.yourelookinggreat.co.uk/hope-city/building-the-future/it’s-time-to-make-more-money!.aspx
As the title suggests the article is basically preaching the prosperity gospel and tithing - it’s time to make more money (why do you want to be poor, only losers are poor, is the message) and you owe us 10% of it.
So in answer to my own question, yes it looks like they are another Hill$ong clone
September 23rd, 2006 at 9:40 am
You’d have to read the gospels with your eyes shut to think God prefers the rich to the poor… still, God’s upside down preferences aren’t an appealing idea in the Western consumer world.
Like your work, Toddy. Post 740 reminds me of the end of “You, Me and Dupree” (Well, a different life message, but a similar ending) Come on Blestpickle… this is perfect Hollywood stuff! Toddy should write scripts!!!!
Speaking of Hollywood scripts… I saw “Thank you for smoking” the other night. It’s a really funny and clever look at the art of the spin doctor… I recommend it. (Maybe HS should employ one in their counter attack to Lance!)
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:17 am
Rosy, thanks for posting that link. Initially I thought they were ‘taking the piss’ out of the prosperity gospel thing but no, they are serious!
That article would have to be the most blatant perversion of the gospel I’ve probably ever seen.
I like this line -
Well, why not start by doing what the Bible suggests:
Are you tithing? That’s giving away the first 10% of your earned money. And the Bible tells us to give it to your church - not 5% to church, 1% to this missionary, 3% to a worthy cause, etc. No! 10% to church. Full stop. And tithing is a basic. If you’re not tithing, forget the rest. Don’t bother reading any further. Tithing ‘protects’ the rest of your money. Why tithe? Because God tells us to. And that’s that.
WIGGY
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:08 pm
“Aussie Church Starting’. That was the announcement of the arrival of ‘The Hope of Sheffield Christian Church’ in a newspaper ad way back in 1991.
The church was launched at Easter after Dave and Jenny Gilpin watched coverage of the Hillsborough disaster on Australian television. For Dave it meant coming back home, as he was born in Birkenhead but for Jenny, it meant leaving her native Australia and launching into the unknown.”
Dave Gilpin is connected with the ‘S4 leadership’ movement…run by Steve Penny…
It’s also endorsed by Hill$ong’s Brian Houston….
“”Leadership is about giving others an example to follow. Steve Penny stands out as a leader who is committed to raise the standard of excellence and influence in our churches. Kings S4 Leadership is a fantastic opportunity for key leaders who want to press forward and rise to new levels of growth and expansion in their ministries. I believe the fruit of this will have a significant impact in shaping the leaders of the future.”
Brian Houston, National President AOG Australia”
The ideas in the article on Dave Gilpin’s Hope City church website……and it’s worth quoting the full text here….
http://www.yourelookinggreat.co.uk/hope-city/building-the-future/it’s-time-to-make-more-money!.aspx
“You need money to make your dreams happen. You need money to give. You need money to live. You need money.
‘Actually, I just need enough money to get by,’ you say. Well, that’s a pretty selfish attitude, just caring about yourself! What about the world around you? Who’s going to buy dinner, or get your neighbour a drink, or sponsor someone in Africa? Face it, you need more money!
Money is the currency of the world. Influence flows down, never up, and if you want to have influence in this world, without depending on charitable handouts from others, you’ll need money.
Fortunately, it’s easy to make money! There’s enough of it around. If we split all the wealth in the world equally, we’d have about £9 million each. Money is not like apple pie, where there is only a certain amount to go around. It’s like a river, which, with the right knowledge and with some work, you can channel to where you want it, causing a torrent to flow into your life.
If you drop an apple, the law of gravity will cause it to fall to the ground. That’s gravity – it’s a natural law. There are laws attached to money. If you know what they are – and use them – you’ll make a lot of money. It’s that easy!
So what are the laws?
Well, why not start by doing what the Bible suggests:
Are you tithing? That’s giving away the first 10% of your earned money. And the Bible tells us to give it to your church - not 5% to church, 1% to this missionary, 3% to a worthy cause, etc. No! 10% to church. Full stop. And tithing is a basic. If you’re not tithing, forget the rest. Don’t bother reading any further. Tithing ‘protects’ the rest of your money. Why tithe? Because God tells us to. And that’s that.
Are you giving? The Bible says ‘Give and it will be given to you.’ Wow! That’s from the same Bible as John 3v16. If we really knew the power of that verse, we would save up all our money, just to give! If you want it, you gotta give it!
Be generous on every occasion. Never let someone else pay when you can. You are the generous one! ‘Spread your bread upon the waters’ – be generous all the time!
Sow some seed. Don’t just spend your money on coffee, the cinema and paying bills. Sow some seed by investing. Give God something to bless. Doing this in partnership with giving is powerful stuff. You do it, and God’ll bless it!
If you want to be poor, do what poor people do. If you want to be an athlete, get down the gym with all the other athletes and do what they do. If you want to be a chef, read the chef’s books, hang with chefs, do what chefs do, but if you want to be rich, read books about money and hang with rich people.
What was the last book you read about money?
‘You don’t understand!’ I hear you say. ‘I don’t like reading… I haven’t got the time’. Well that’s OK, you obviously are quite happy doing what you’re doing, earning what your earning and having what you have. Not me! I’m having what they’re having. I’m gonna do what the rich do, but I can’t do it until I know what they do. It’s time to do some reading!
It’s not rocket science, but look at your friends. Are they richer, cleverer and wiser than you? Make sure some are and they’ll ‘pull you up’ to where they are in life. Stop being so insecure and get out and make some friends who make you feel a bit uncomfortable and who grow you. It’s time to get some new friends!
Are you ready to do some work? Ready to pick up a shovel and begin to channel that river into your life. Get to work and watch the water flow!”
……are directly from Brian Hou$ton’s book…’You Need More Money’.
Nice in theory….but very little of the money ends up going to the people the church is supposed to be helping…..with a typical example recently where Australian Government grants were provided so Hill$ong Emerge could provide start-up loans for Aboriginal people…..but only six loans worth a couple of thousand dollars were made…while the chief executive received $80000 in ‘top-up pay’ for administering the scheme ($80000 in top-up pay…not a loan).
The best advice is avoid any Australia-planted church in the UK…or at the very least…ask upfront questions about their theology and philosophy.
September 23rd, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Reaganomics for the church, absolute rubbish
rev
September 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pm
The site states
I was travelling through England this week with a trusted friend and colleague and a great guy who has had some level of exposure to MLM’s himself.
We talked about God and Science and stuff, and he was surprised when I said I don’t attend Riverview. I gave him a top-line view of the concerns I had and he rightly stated “Two years ago if I expressed my own concerns to you about the Church and these guys - you would not have listened…”.
[Note to SilentBob - I was a highly engaged advocate too, until the BRW article “God’s Millionairres” came out and I started asking hard questions, so I should be more empathatic to your current position].
Having some exposure to MLM and Church through a relative who is a ‘Pastor’ he stated “its alright for these these guys to tell everybody to go “hard at it”, the amount of deductions these guys get is unbelievable … their life is a gift”.
It’s true. As well as an above award salary rate for Pastors, wives (rightly or wrongly) drawing salaries, special deals on cars, large “unjustifiable amounts of money” exchanging hands on the reciprical lurcrative speaking circuit into charitable minstry accounts (with FBT, Income Tax, FBT exemptions), some of the ministry entitites such as LMI provide luxury houses (plural) as “manses” - so as well as paying much less tax than the average punter, they also do not ahve to worry about mortgage repayments!. This does not even include the tax deductable travel benefits as a cosnequence of being on the speaking circuit (I would swap 10% Gross for those priveledges anyday!)
It has also come to my attention that one Pastor also has recieved a cruise for himself and his wife as an anniversary gift from the Church, after having their mortage paid out by the Church some years ago!
All this being paid for from the dodgy doctrine of “tithing” in these Churches (note: doctrine does not exist in most mainstream churches -especially taught as it is in that Prosperity Chucrh example posted by Rosy)
Give us a break!
Those who live in a normal occupation, paying taxes, mortages and expenses have a resposnibility not to sustain the lifestyles of the preachers but to look after our own familes first:
This was reinforced by Martin Luther in his 95 Thesis (#46) which started the entire reformation:
Contemporary Church Pastors, the way you operate must come to an end.
September 23rd, 2006 at 4:09 pm
If any of you Senior Pastors monitoring this blog (Baker/Mesiti/Pringle/Houston/Eavns et al) believe that our statements are spreading “misinformation” then have the courage to step into the convesration and correct our attitudes.
It is complete rubbish to suggest that
The fact is that media understands the Church. Mother Teresa and Billy Graham and other Churches ‘that do the Christian thing’ get very little media crticism.
The reason why Hillsong and Contemporary Churches get ‘bagged’by the media is because of a lack of authenticity (Millionairre Preachers), a lack of accountability and a comparaitive lack of genuine faith driven good works and clear networked associations with the likes of Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer and the prevalence of fraudsters such as Peter Popoff, Marjoe Gortner etc, the fact that people like Brian Houston get caught out making contradictory statements in the media (”I am a Property developer” / “I have never been a property developer”) -and the fact that you claerly link the receipt God’s favour in excahnge for $money through the unsubstatiated and twisted doctrine of tithing.
Yes the media understands the mission and message of the Church. Much, much better than its Pastors.