hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
September 23rd, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Speaking as an outsider — you guys have way too many hangups about this stuff….. move on.
There are plenty of crap philosophies out there….why does this one bother you so much?
Live what you think is right.
September 23rd, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Good post LionFish. I liked this a lot -
September 23rd, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Ah I cocked up the blockquote. I was only meant to quote Lion’s text from post 750… Damn, it’s back to Pez dispensor training for me!
WIGGY
September 23rd, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Hi Brissiegirl -
I am so glad Martin Luther was persitent and did the hard yards to let the message of freedom and grace shine through the crap theology of his time.
Change never happens without a fight, nor does it happen overnight!
It took Moses 10 plagues before Pharoh to let God’s people go!
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Wiggy,
Allan Meyer has said offline that he may enter into dialogue if the conversation is kept respectful.
Lets make sure we give give credit where credit is due.
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Well, if it’s that serious, and if it’s a battle that must be fought… any ideas on a strategy to do so? I mean, thinking outside the Signposts box.
Just inviting a brainstorm of sorts. There’s many ways to skin a cat, so to speak.
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:10 pm
“if the conversation is kept respectful”
Oh, gosh… what are the chances?
September 23rd, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Wiggy said,
“Rosy, thanks for posting that link. Initially I thought they were ‘taking the piss’ out of the prosperity gospel thing but no, they are serious!
That article would have to be the most blatant perversion of the gospel I’ve probably ever seen.”
Thanks for replying Wiggy, I absolutely agree with your comments. I had to re-read the article a couple of times because I couldn’t believe it the first/second/third time. I just don’t understand how such a twisted version of biblical teaching can be being taught (sold?) by Hill$ong and its clones. Janet was right when she said it’s the church for the consumer age.
On a lighter note did you notice the small print at the bottom of the article?
“Marc Griffiths – Property Developer, Sheffield, UK. Marc is married to Keri and they live on a farm with real life farm animals!”
September 23rd, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Lance, thanks for quoting the article in full, sorry I didn’t think to do that! Interesting that the article is a quote from BrianHuston’s “you need more money”, now I’m left wondering how much else from Hope£ity is just parroting Hill$ong.
I like the ‘control’ aspect of the article - don’t give your money to other charities, instead give it all to us, we know better than you what to do with it, we’ll spend it far more wisely that either you or any other charity could possibly do. . .
Thank you also for your advice to avoid Hope£ity. They are so far removed from my personal philosophy on life that I fear that I would probably self-combust if I crossed their threshhold
Also, from reading their website, I don’t think they are aiming at me to be a member anyway. I see there is a ‘mens’ section and a ‘girls’ section, which reduce men and ‘girls’ to crass stereotypes - men like football and curry and girls like chocolate, make up and clothes. It’s far too superficial for me and as for being called ‘girl’ - take out the probably, I definitely would self-combust
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Err . . . I meant ’spontaneously combust’
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:34 pm
756 Janet writes:
“Well, if it’s that serious, and if it’s a battle that must be fought… any ideas on a strategy to do so? I mean, thinking outside the Signposts box”.
You mean like participating in a documentary being made on the financial management of the contemporary Church…?
September 24th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Yeah, like that! I hadn’t heard about this (but I periodically get way too busy to check on Signposts… it may have been discussed before) Can you tell me more about this?
Further to “keeping the conversation respectful”… I want to make some comments in relation to Allan Meyer. From what I know of Careforce, they do engage with their community in many significant ways through welfare, counselling, recovery courses, other short courses, ministries to women and children (etc.) and give a large proportion of money to support overseas missions. I’ve heard none of the kinds of allegations here in relation to HS… misuse of government funding, lack of financial transparency to members, bullying staff, wildly excessive salaries for ministers.
Let’s keep this issue in some proportion. He may teach tithing… the church universal has done this for a very long time, (at least since the era of Constantine I think) and you’ll probably still be taught this in most churches. You may strongly believe that it’s not a New Testament principle, which instead encourages generousity and giving willingly as led by the Holy Spirit… but let’s not turn it into a hanging offence. There’d be lots of “ordinary” pastors doing good things in their local churches swinging from the gallows if we make it one.
Claiming tithing “releases God’s blessing and will make you rich” is taking it a step further into deceptive conduct… but teaching that it’s important to make support of the ministries of your church a priority in planning your finances… well, I would hope that there could be a robust discussion about that that doesn’t degenerate into insults and personal abuse. As I said… otherwise there’d be pastors all over the place dangling from a noose.
September 24th, 2006 at 9:21 am
But Janet, if thisdoesn’t degenerate into insults and personal abuse., then how will we know were still on Signposts?
September 24th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Janet,
I think that it is wonderful that Careforce “engage(s) with their community in many significant ways through welfare, counselling, recovery courses, other short courses, ministries to women and children (etc.) and give a large proportion of money to support overseas missions”.
But so do SDA’s, Mormon’s, Scientologists, the International Churches of Christ.
You have seen the H$ clone link posted above by Rosy that blatantly connects titithing to monetary blessing and favour from God. This has copied from Brian houston’s book “You Need More Money”.
In addition the website claims “Are you tithing? That’s giving away the first 10% of your earned money. And the Bible tells us to give it to your church - not 5% to church, 1% to this missionary, 3% to a worthy cause, etc. No! 10% to church. Full stop. And tithing is a basic. If you’re not tithing, forget the rest. Don’t bother reading any further. Tithing ‘protects’ the rest of your money. Why tithe? Because God tells us to. And that’s that”.
This echoes some of the statments in Allans teaching …
Now when Hillsong is looking for someone to be a Bibilcal AUthority to dupe their followers into believing that all this has scriptural backing - who do they call on? Who do other Churches direct people with questions about tithing too?
It is Allan who speaks on this stuff at conferences and in the recent Hillsong series on “Stewardship”.
Make no mistake - these guys all stand in solidarity on this stuff!
September 24th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
A few points about this ‘respectful dialogue’ thing that Allan Meyer’s on about.
First of all you don’t demand respect…you earn respect.
Secondly, if Meyer is so thin-skinned that he can’t cope with criticism..then he’s not going to last long in politics as a Family First MP..if he get’s elected.
Thirdly….his ‘come to church, win a car’ promotion shows how low he’s prepared to go..and why he doesn’t deserve respect.
Fourthly…his tithing teaching has been torn to shreds by biblical experts.
The onus is on Allan Meyer now to prove that he should be respected.
We haven’t been the ones going around teaching and saying all this crap.
September 24th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Lance, with respect - that’s bullshit.
Clearly you’re talking about a different kind of “respect” to what I was thinking about when I read the posts above. I thought Lionfish was requesting that were were polite rather than abusive, that we endeavoured to listen rather than shout someone down.
That kind of respect is something that should be shown to everyone, irrespective of whether or not you like what they have to say. Nobody has to earn it. We respect others because it provides space for dialogue. We respect others because they too are made in the image of God. We respect others because they have inherent worth.
But you know, if you want to live your life abusing people until they prove they deserve otherwise, then that’s just fine. I’m sure that will work out for you just fine.
September 24th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Lets not forget that Allan also sits on the Boardof Church, that like Hope£ity, fully endorses the book “You Need More money” (including the really dodgy chapter on tithing):
http://www.philbaker.net/comment/2049
There is far too much evidence to suggest that Allan is not standing in solidarity with the networked Prosperity peddlers.
September 24th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Yes Bec
“I thought Lionfish was requesting that were were polite rather than abusive, that we endeavoured to listen rather than shout someone down”.
That’s what I meant.
September 24th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Janet with respect (there’s that word again!) to Post 762 I am reminded of Christ’s words to the Pharisees in Matt 23.5 - “…But all their works they do to be seen by the people…”
The implication is not that they don’t perform good works per say but that the motivation for those good works is inherently flawed from the outset. I would have to say the the general M.O (modus operandi) of the contemporary church is in much the same state… It’s entirely full of contradiction.
A perfect example is CCC giving the local Sydney Northern beaches fire brigade a cheque for 20K (works to be “seen by the people”) but totally ignoring their own congregational member who was homeless for 3 weeks and forced to sleep in their car and farm her kids out. It just stinks Janet and unless people care enough to make a little noise about it then nothing will change.
WIGGY
September 24th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
By respect I meant exactly what Bec specified… the kind of courtesy you extend to anyone because they are a person made in the image of God. (There should probably be a separate word for the kind of respect generated by geniune greatness)
I also think one should extend courtesy because otherwise you don’t have a conversation… most people promptly walk away if personally abused, and most people dismiss even the arguments used as emerging from personal anger rather than logic. (It’s a very normal human tendency to close off to the thoughts of those who would hurt and abuse… I know I do this!)
I think there’s a danger in assuming all leaders of large churches are wired exactly the same… if Alan Meyer teaches tithing then obviously he must also be guilty of “misuse of government funding, lack of financial transparency to members, bullying staff, wildly excessive salaries for ministers”. That’s rubbish…. give some evidence!!!
I sometimes suspect there’s a bit of illegitimate transference going on… if someone says something that sounds like Phil Pringle, or Brian Houston, or whoever led Churchlands Christian Fellowship… whammo! The adrenaline starts pumping, and whoever makes a sound like that gets the full blast of wrath, as if they were guilty of all their sins combined… the personification of all the manipulation and evils experienced in these churches (someone else explain how an ordinary member of a church like this cops personal abuse if they attempt some defence of their attending Hillsong… or wherever?)
I’m not saying I agree with this teaching… I’m saying have some sense of proportion. A heck of a lot of churches teach tithing, have done so for a long time, and don’t make silly “promises” based on it. Are you going to rage against all of these… or are you going to engage in respectful dialogue as you would with other issues on which Christians differ that are “non core” doctrines (eg mode of baptism, church governance structures, view of scripture, view of women in ministry, etc. etc.)
I have no idea how you can assume that Careforce does the actions I’ve mentioned for show… they have been doing all this stuff for a very, very long time when they were far more low profile than now. What’s your evidence Wiggy? Do you have inside knowledge on Careforce? Is it from a reliable source?
Sigh. As stated earlier… respectful dialogue… what are the chances?
September 24th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
Don’t over-react Janet, I think you’re reading more into what I posted than what I intended.
As far as Careforce are concerned, I am not stating specifically that it as a church “does the actions I’ve mentioned for show”.
Did I say that in those exact words? No I didn’t.
All I said was that like the Pharisees the contemporary church (you saw that and read Careforce) is in much the same state with regards to doing “…all their works they do to be seen by the people”
Even though Careforce may have very good intentions Janet (and I don’t doubt that they have), like LionFish posted he’s the current “go-to-guy” as far as biblical authority on tithing is concerned.
Like it or not, he is in a position of leadership within the Austalian contemporary church and it is encumbant upon Allan if he feels that tithing is a “commandment from God” to at the very least defend it. Perhaps a bit more than “deal with 1 Cor 9 or get out of the kitchen”… Wouldn’t you agree?
Janet you also say that “A heck of a lot of churches teach tithing, have done so for a long time, and don’t make silly “promises” based on it. Are you going to rage against all of these…”
Well no that wouldn’t really make sense would it? I think the reason Lance, LionFish, myself and whoever else target HS, CCC, Allan Meyer, PDJ etc is because these are the churches that so many others are modelling themselves off. They see the numbers, the albums, the “success” and want a slice of the pie. But error is still error Janet, regardless of how long it has been going on. 1+3 does equal 25, it equals 4 no matter how many people would like to say and think otherwise.
As for “respectful dialogue” I think a lot of that is in the eye of the beholder. Forums are very black and white and a lot of interpretation is based upon how one is feeling when they’re reading what’s posted and may not come across the way the poster intended. Perfect case in point Janet is how you read something into what I posted that I didn’t imply or intend. Personally I have no problem with how Lance words things, I find it refreshing. Others may not but then it’s up to them to ask themselves why…
WIGGY
September 24th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Janet,
We have targeted “Tithing” as it its taught in the Contemporary Church (complete with Malachi 3:10 on offering envelopes ie. Don’t Rob god / Blessed if you do / Cursed if you Don’t / Criteria for Membership / Qualification for Leadership) as a ‘litmus test’ of the theological integrity of these teachers.
I would have no problem if Tithing was taughts as a Church ‘tradition’ or ‘discipline’ that some Christians choose to give as part of their worship of God (that’s why I would not target the local Baptist Church) - but it is the manipulative camshaft that drives the dodgy Properity Theology that is making Pastors into Millionairres at the expense of those whom Church funding is supposed to benefit and protect (via the secretive lucrative reciprical speaking circuit).
Other avenues of discussion (eg. nicely sitting down with Pastor, request for information in writing and request for financial statements) do not work.
In fact, one associatte of mine asked his Church about the ‘doctrine of tithing’ was directed to Allan Meyer, then was stonewalled in his own Church on the issue, then at a meeting to discuss with Leadership (one Pastor called Russell Kelly’s book “crap” and threatened to throw the book in the bin without reading it, said he had a ‘dodgy’ PHD - and then the Church asked the Member to leave the Church - all for being persistent with regards to teaching the doctrine.
A similar ‘kangaroo court’ was held for “jane” when she questioned the doctrine of ‘tithing’ in her Church which ended in her departure.
This sort of abuse, the advent of “God’s millionairres”, the manipulation of the scripturally naieve by “God’s annointed” is as dark as it was in the 1600’s.
It needs to stop!
Being ‘nice’ is great - but it does not always work … Jesus in the Temple was driven by anger and was not “nice”, John the Baptist was sent to Prison for being “not nice” to Herod.
The reformation was started by not a nice man, Martin Luther, who God used to break through the ‘darkness’ was described as “Luther’s eloquence made him popular by its force, humour, rudeness, and vulgar style”.
Being ‘nice’ does not always work … however, now we have the attention of these Leaders, who have stonewalled us up until now, we can dialogue
with them repsctfully.
September 24th, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Sorry Wiggy to misinterpret you, but you stated (769) this was a response to 762, which was about Careforce.
I have no problem with you discussing tithing with Alan Meyer… I didn’t think he was one of the “if you tithe you’ll get rich” brigade… if he is he has a lot to answer for! I’m just asking that he doesn’t get tarred with the same brush as BH just because he believes and teaches tithing… it would be easy to assume this and blame him for all the ills of the contemporary church, whether legitimate or not. (that’s what I mean by transference in part… that you assume you’re talking with a BH type, and lose discernment.)
I’m not convinced rudeness is a virture!
September 24th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
It’s never a virtue - but as they say “nice guys finish last!”
September 25th, 2006 at 7:12 am
I would have no problem if Tithing was taughts as a Church ‘tradition’ or ‘discipline’ that some Christians choose to give as part of their worship of God - Lionfish, isn’t this a double standard. Either it is biblical, scriptural and ethical to teach it, or it isn’t. How can it be both ways. This seems to be contrary to about everything you have said about tithing.
So it would seem the real argument is not about tithing at all, but about manipulation and control, and how tithing is a tool of the manipulators.
September 25th, 2006 at 8:13 am
No Kevin, every single one of our church liturgies is based on church tradition, two songs a prayer, four songs, announcements, sermon, prayer and one song. You change it everyone gets upset, cause this is what we have always done (for the past two years). And I have no problem with that. The way you do communion is based on your tradition, and that is okay too. Tithing taught as a new testement law is heretical teaching, tithing as a suggested way to disicipline your finances, or as a church tradition is not, it isn’t unbiblical, it doesn’t make those that choose not to feel they aren’t following God correctly, and it isn’t heresy.
rev
September 25th, 2006 at 8:26 am
As usual Rev, couldn’t have put it better. If someone were to teach tithing as a recommended financial discipline and a church tradition, that’s one thing… as a law, or as a way to become rich… that’s quite another.
Just a feeling that some are ready to leap to their feet, stir up the crowd, and shout “crucify him, crucify him” toward anyone who dares mention the “t” word. This is way out of proportion.
“nice guys finish last!”… ah, but the last shall be first in the kingdom to come. (Can’t remember how to make a smiley face!)
September 25th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Kevin,
No it is not inconsitent…
Right from the outset, I said that, even in my own very first arguments with Allan Meyer on his teaching on PB’s Blog. If Allan chose to go down this road then there would not be any debate - rather he chose to defend his position from the scriptures and to force his interpretaion that Tithing is an obligation upon all and sundry.
The Lutherans, anglicans and others have a “tradition” of “confirmation” - yet no one is ‘compelled’ to be ‘confirmed’.
If tithing is taught as a tradition it can be limped in the Romans 14 bucket and be up to each man’s conscience. A person is not under any obligation or compulsion to tithe and has the freedom of consicience to keep it - as with sabbath keeping or abstaining from certain foods. This view point is clear that there is no scriptural mandate that compels believers to tithe (or give any other set percentatge) as a mandatory tenant of faith.
There are many other Church traditions that a believer can keep, but is not obliged too eg. “Thanksgiving Sunday”, “Advent” …. all traditions of a Church - kept by some believers, in some groups, in some places, in some times.
If tithing is taught as a scriptural mandate and therefore compelled to tithe then this is manipulative. It brings peoples conscience’s into (false) bondage, no matter who the person is or what financial status is. This is the way that it is (largely) taught in the contemporary church … you will be blessed if you do, cursed if you don’t, Malachi 3:10 is binding on the believer, it is a condition of membership or leadership etc.
There is a clear difference between ‘tradition’s’ and ’scriptural obligation’, with one having its origins in the interpretation of man, and one having its origins as a compelling obligation in scripture.
Both have significant bearing on the way ‘we do life’ and upon our liberty and freedoms as Christians.
September 25th, 2006 at 8:58 am
Well, that’s certainly grounds for robust debate. I’m just clarifying that I don’t think he’s exactly the same kind of creature as BH.
Although, for all I know I suppose he could be slipping out of his everyman Kmart jumper when he gets home, popping on the Armani suit and caressing the Lexus hidden in his garage.
September 25th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Maybe not of the same substance, but of the same network … and provides suuport for the Hillsong “stewardship” (fundraising) agenda - also teaches as Hillsong conferences.