hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
September 25th, 2006 at 11:28 am
I haven’t been on signposts for a while, things in my life have been a challenge to say the least. I have just been sacked as the senior pastor (or team leader as I called myself) of the church I was at. It’s a long story, but basically at the end of the day it was because of thinking and actions that were “outside of the box”. If you go too far outside of the box, the organisation needs to try to pull you back in. If you refuse to admit that being outside of the box is wrong, eventually you suffer the consequences.
Anyway, I didn’t want to go into details, but just to let other signposts people in on my life a bit….. But there’s much more to life than the organised church….
In relation to some of the comments about “respectful debate”, I am a bit torn. Blogging is an ideal (and relatively safe, to a degree) environment for robust debate. That’s what makes blogging interesting and thought provoking. If we were all nice and gentle all the time, it would not have that provocative edge.
However, there is a tension between this and common decency. This is not always attained, and it is good to see people apologise when they feel they have stepped over the mark of common decency.
I would not however want to see signposts become a nice and politically correct and pathetically polite blogsite. It should be a place where people can write what they think and feel (within the boundaries of common decency) without having to think who they might be offending or getting offside….
September 25th, 2006 at 11:37 am
With regards to Allan Meyer - lets have him on here, listen ot his points, and see what he’s got to say.
If he’s willing to come on, we should give him the chance. So let’s not talk about it, lets just let him know he’s welcome.
September 25th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Regarding respectful dialogue. Signposts has always offered right of reply to anyone who wants it but nobody has yet taken us up on it. For what it is worth, I don’t blame them. The fact is that while some might wish to be “respectful”, the pattern of discussion which is shown with new commenters who don’t agree with the views of many here is often far from respectful.
Those alternate voices who have continued to comment have had to work pretty hard in an environment where all sorts of assumptions are made about what they might be thinking. I imagine it would be worse to a level of degrees if one of these leaders actually waded into the fray. I will defend everyone’s right to comment on these issues, but that doesn’t mean I think people are capable of playing nice with Alan Meyer or Phil Baker or others.
September 25th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Good comment wayne. Welcome back.
Dan,
I believe that if anyone came on signposts with an alternative, yet intelligent position then they would be given respect.
Steve / Embalzoned was a good example, and he went out and sought information on our behalf (and ultimately changed his own views).
It’s just when people are not prepared to dig into the detail, or think about the issues at hand people tend to get frustrated.
There is an elemnt of truth in Lance’s position that people earn respect - though Bec is also correct that people should gracefully be given respect becuase they are people.
If Allan, comes on this site with an intelligent approach to his angle, and is not disrespectful himself, then he will be given the respect that he desires.
Maybe, we could arrange a thread that is ‘monitored’ and comments that are disrespectful could be deleted by yourselves. Lets agree to some terms of engagement before Allan or PDJ or anyone else comes on board.
We need to remember that there is an underlying inherent disrespect for their own Partners and members by Pastors who have asked honest questions regading fundraising strategies, authenticity, accountability, transparency and orthodoxy of doctrine in their own Churches over a number of years. This could be easily conatined and masked before the ‘Internet Age’.
Although none of us are privy to the full story, ‘Wayne’ demonstrates yet again what can happen when people ’step outside of the party line’.
We have been discussing serious issues, that were originally raised by the media - not the bloggers at Signposts. These Pastors have a responsibility to answer queries when asked.
September 25th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
Part of the problem is that the line of ‘common decency’ is drawn in different places by different people.
It’s generally accepted ..for example…that Fred Phelps crosses the line of common decency..by picketing military funerals and holding demonstrations against ‘fags’ and ‘fag-enablers’.
I’ve never come across anybody suggesting we should respect Fred Phelps. In fact, people tend to rejoice when someone tells him he’s a dickhead.
In the same way….I believe Fred Nile crosses the line of common decency.
He has publicly campaigned against gay people for years…and helped boost a culture in the church that results in young gay people either contemplating taking their own lives…or completing suicide.
He has also said publicly as recently as 2004 ..that he believes gay people should be jailed.
Therefore I believe he should not be treated in a respectful way…and that will put me at odds with many Christians who think Nile is a saint because he wants all the poofs locked up.
Fine. I accept I will always differ with Christians on how Nile should be treated.
Brian Houston stands on a stage each week…and makes angry in-your-face assertions about you and other Christians and people outside the church….(I know…I’ve done the transcripts). He lacks common decency when he does it.
We know what Houston has done to people behind the scenes…and that there would be much more said about him here….but for the laws of defamation…
I believe he has lost the right to be treated with common decency….although many Christians who are either unaffected by Hill$ong…or love their Jesus Jingles…will be horrified at the thought of being unkind to Brian and his ‘thugs’ (AOG pastors’ word..not mine).
But loss of respect and loss of being treated respectfully is the price you pay when you bully and intimidate people…
So what about Allan Meyer?
I heard Allan speak years ago at Joondalup Baptist and I clearly remember being spectacularly unimpressed.
He had none of the insight of a Sy Rogers on sexuality issues…and simply tried to scare the mostly teenage audience…with a ‘don’t or bad things will happen to you’ message.
He has absolutely nothing to say to gay people (I’ve exhaustively researched all that he’s said and written..and he can’t bring himself to brooch the topic of homosexuality)…but I could take an educated guess..and suggest that Allan’s position would be…’be celibate until you can be ‘healed’ and/or (heterosexually) married.’
Add to that …that he is on the board of Revenue Church ..and is a proponent of emotionally and biblically manipulative false teaching on tithing..and engaged in the grubby ‘come to church, win a car’ episode….and I think there’s very little reason to respect Allan Meyer…especially since he’s meant to know better as a ‘Christian minister’.
Others will disagree with me..because they would agree with some of Allan’s methods and teachings….and therefore think he should be treated with respect…but I don’t think so…and if Allan is so thin-skinned…then he definitely shouldn’t be contemplating a career as a Family First senator….where he’ll have to contend with real politicians who really don’t like him..and real journalists who ask hard questions… (and mysteriously wear a live lizard on their shoulder.)
I respect and am courteous to many of the people here at Signposts….but it’s obvious that I draw the line of respect in a different place than most others here …so just leave me to chrome and froth in the corner while you ladies get on with your knitting.
September 25th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
I just find it hilarious though that Allan Meyer won’t engage in dialogue because someone might say something mean to him….
I don’t think he’s thought through this ‘politician’ thing.
September 25th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Wayne - welcome back to the fold mate. I’d love to know what really went down and why exactly the church felt it neccesary to “fire” you but that’s your story to tell in your own time. I agree with your statement re the organised church, there most definately is life after it.
For the record, I am happy to show Allan Meyer a level of respect. I don’t think to date I have used language with anyone on Signposts (not even Homer) but perhaps a “moderated” thread for Dr Al would be in order if that is the only way he will come online and honestly answer some very real questions. I’m looking forward to it…
WIGGY
September 25th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Lance says:
“and if Allan is so thin-skinned…then he definitely shouldn’t be contemplating a career as a Family First senator….where he’ll have to contend with real politicians who really don’t like him..and real journalists who ask hard questions… (and mysteriously wear a live lizard on their shoulder.)”
Are you insinuating that Naomi Robson is a real journalist?
My oh my your standards are low!
In regard to the “respect” issue…I think Meyer just doen’t want to be called names.
Otherwise respect is a two way street and none of the prosperity cartel show any respect to anyone else.
An update on Joel A’bell…he has had nothing to add. He will not reply to me in anyway to me. I assume he realises the shakey ground he stands on. He neglects to remember how well connected I am in the Hill$ong.
This Friday I will be flying to Melbourne to watch the Swans win the AFL Grand Final…Go the Swans! I will be staying over the weekend with a Pastor of an AOG church who used to be a pastor in Hill$ong until he was disciplined by BCH for some “misdemeanour” in a personal relationship. I supported him all through that 12 month period in his life. And he know it! He is apparently still good friends with Joel…I have made many comments to my Melbourne mate about Hill$ong and leaving etc and he has never defended them. So lets see what happens and Go the Swans..
Oh, Go the Swans!
September 25th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
“Otherwise respect is a two way street and none of the prosperity cartel show any respect to anyone else.”
Maybe some people need to sit in these churches week after week..to fully appreciate the arrogance of these prosperity pastors….because they really don’t show any respect to anyone.
We are there purely and solely to fund their empire-building strategy.
They think in terms of numbers, not people…
It is the pastors who are modelling disrespect.
September 25th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Like I said, people have defended their right to disrespect AM and others. That is fine - I don’t have a problem with that opinion, but it does kind of lend support to my observation that there is a good reason why one of these leaders is unlikely to be willing to come and comment here. A moderated thread is certainly possible.
Oh and for clarification, Allan has not contacted me or to my knowledge Phil about anything on this site, so I can’t comment on whether he would or would not be interested in engaging with any of this. He has not lodged any complaint about anything that anyone has said here about him and I don’t know whether he even knows about this site.
September 25th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
Thanks LF, Wiggy and others for welcoming me back. Maybe Lance you can talk to me now that I’m not a pastor but have returned to engineering (ha ha).
Looking forward to continued robust conversation…..
September 25th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Welcome back Wayne, glad you don’t want everyone to tone down, that would be unorstrayan
Hope you are well bro.
rev
September 25th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Wayne,
Now you are not a Pastor any longer, can you tell why the AOG clergy is so closed lipped and stonewalls any honest enquiry in relation to tithing?
What goes on behind cloed doors?
September 25th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Not sure where to put this but since Hill$ong is so popular it seems as good a place as any….
ABC tonight in Sydney has “Amazing Grace - The Story of John Newton” at 12:30. Worth popping a video in for I think.
September 25th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Wayne was not a hillsong pastor, he was a Church of Christ pastor
rev
September 25th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Thanks Rev. Yes I’m well, all things considered….
Sorry LF. I was not an AoG pastor, as Rev said so I don’t know what goes on behind closed doors.
I just believe that many pastors put way too high an empasis on extending God’s Kingdom through the organised church, which needs bucket loads of money to keep the wheels turning. I believe that many are genuine with this, but probably misguided. As a result, the end starts to justify the means, and so manipulation starts to creep into the system in order to further “God’s work”. Scripture is used to justify their position and it all seems so good and right to the average person - even to the pastors and leaders themselves. I have been there….
But there are also inflated egos, people searching for significance, power and status mixed into all this which further muddies the waters. Obviously in pastoral circles, the bigger the church you lead, the more attention and significance you get from other peers. Big churches need big money. So if churches can find a way to justify the subtle manipulation of people to give money - more power to ya!
However, I think there’s a better way. The day of the organised church is fading, and a new grass roots movement is on the move, that doesn’t require the organisational infrastructure, nor the huge amount of financial and structural resource base. In this new expression of church, church is less committed to organisation and structure and more committed to relationships and mission. I’m looking forward to seeing what evolves over time…..
September 25th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
I remeber being told to tithe but never questioned it from Hillsong pastors. Was told that i was a pastor and had never even been to college. I turned up to work and was told one day that I was now a pastor at Hill$ong. What THE!!!I was even told that we should all give our money to Hillsong and no where else and that the leader suggested it in a meeting and was honoured by Brian for doing so. We even were going to employ someone just to ring people and thank people for donating money to our organisation. That was going to be there position. WHAT THE!!! I left before this person became employed. THANK GOD.
Watched a program on 4 corners tonight on the Bretheren. They were streaks ahead of Hill$ong in terms of control but the same kind of behaviours are being mimicked by those at Hillsong. An interesting watch if you can get a copy of it.
September 25th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
I just watched a disturbing 4 Corners on the Exclusive Brethren. So much in common with Hill$ong! 4 Corners have a discussion board you can join in at
http://www2b.abc.net.au/tmb/Client/MessageList.aspx?b=21&t=23&a=0&te=True&ps=20
I have written comments to the moderator and the reporter asking them to start investigating Hill$ong and others. I also directed them to this blog as a meeting place of former Hill$ongers. Feel free to join their discussion…
September 25th, 2006 at 10:16 pm
Hillsong Churchgoers ‘Stung For Millions.”*
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hillsong-members-stung-for-millions/2006/09/25/1159036462397.html
*As it’s a report on a current court case, comment on this case is not allowed by law here (yet) because Signposts can be viewed in NSW.
After the verdict, go nuts.
September 25th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Hmmm Lance….One of the people concerned is a certain Pastor I have failed to correspond with lately…
September 25th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
You have been ’shunned’ Neil! They “won’t waste their time with you” any more!
Why would they? You’re no longer any $value to them.
September 25th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
Oh they will one day Lionfish…because I will not shut up.
How do you eat an elephant?…one piece at a time.
I will not let them off the hook! I am shaking every cage I can. I am no fool, I am an intelligent man not a raving lunatic. I am using the system to investigate and expose them. I collect information and present it to authorities in a form they want to see. I am speak to people who go to Hill$ong and feed them doubts. Subverion is the word I think.
Yes perhaps I have been called for such a time as this…
September 26th, 2006 at 9:24 am
My only comment Neil would be to be careful that revenge doesn’t become your motivation to expose the likes of Hillsong. I am certainly not in a position to judge your motives, and I too would like to see many churches exposed for the manipulation and control that they wield on people. However, it will do you personally no good if your motives are not right. It will only further embitter you……
At the same time I also want to validate the pain you feel. I feel it too……
September 26th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Thanks Wayne,
I’m not bitter…I’m just fed up! I just don’t want these animals to get away with this stuff anymore!
I’ve had a gutfull of these animals dragging my saviours name through the mud so they can fill their pockets full of cash.
It’s not like I spend every day on this crap…If i see an oportunity i take it. If i see some interesting information I file it.
Have a great day!
September 26th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
I’m not bitter - just a little bit twisted!
I feel like you Neil. As long as we get people to start think through things. It’s a spiritual market place out there - and every goon wants your heart, your mind and your dollar.
St Paul warned us to be careful, and on the ‘lookout’, and to withdraw from those false teachers who would try and deceive ‘even the elect’, bringing them into bondage via law, or to ‘make merchandise’ out of them.
If the networked WOF/Pentecostal teachers and such as Benny Hinn, and those that host them do not fit the description of these money hungry ‘ravenous wolves in sheeps clothing’ who ’see religion and a way to wealth’ … then I ask, who on earth does?
September 26th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Nell and LF I agree with you. Just a quick motive check that’s all….
But it certainly is time that people stopped being so naive and gullible and realised the manipulation and control that happens at so many levels that is pouted as Godly but is mostly worldly…..
September 26th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
The movers and shakers of the AOG appear to have seized the moment..now that Phil Baker has put himself and the ‘New Church Network’ out of the picture.
A reminder of Phil Baker’s leaked letter to pastors…
“Dear Pastor,
Greetings from Perth. I am writing to give you an official update of the journey of Australian Christian Churches and the New Church Network. As many of you know, ACC, the organisation that represents around 1500 churches, has been examining its purpose and structure. Over the last year and I have been quite keen to see ACC expand across the body of Christ so it would capture all Churches that would fit the contemporary evangelical genre. As a result of these discussions we had overwhelming support and it seemed that the organisation would morph into what we were loosely calling the New Church Network, with up to 3000 churches involved.
We also had to think seriously about the ‘why’ behind all this. The primary purpose was to be a voice in the media, not on specific political issues but rather to let people know that the prominent mainline denominations were not the only alternatives in the ecclesiastical world and there is a whole new family of churches from a wide range of denominations who are doing church in a new way.
As a deadline on a decision on all this drew closer I began to feel more and more uneasy, which led to me feeling uneasy about the fact that I was feeling uneasy! I talked to many others and spent quite a bit of time thinking and in prayer and slowly was able, I believe, to put my finger on what was wrong and why that which we had planned may not in the end be the best course of action.
In short, the attempt to develop an organisation, which would get us above the media radar, could be likened a little bit to developing a war ship that was big enough to show up on enemy radar! We all understand that the media as a whole don’t really understand the church, not just because they are not asking the questions but also because of presupposition and often sadly personal baggage. Good positive stories on the church are few are far between. Those that are not, are all too often filled with misinformation, bias or from angles that had been decided upon before anybody was even interviewed.
I began to think that maybe the best course of action for the church is to work more by stealth to influence society, one life, one family and one community at a time. That we should not be overly enamoured with national media. As I voiced these concerns more and more leaders concurred. So I found myself in, to use Paul’s wonderful phrase, ‘a strait betwixt two’: on the one hand championing an organisation that would gain a better public voice for the church and, on the other, having concerns that such a cause was wrong headed.
I realised that we have a wonderful unity in our country. The success of the 500Plus Conferences is a good example of this where churches from across the streams gather to learn, to input and to help one another. This is happening on many levels and I believe we don’t actually need another organisation unless that organisation has a compelling purpose. Thus the compelling purpose for New Church Network and, in turn, for Australian Christian Churches was one that many of us were having serious reservations about.
So I thought the best I could do was to share openly and honestly with the leaders of the various denominations and the Board of Australian Christian Churches about how I was feeling. We stand at a point in history where we could form an organisation representing some 3000 churches. However just because something is doable doesn’t mean to say we need to do it.
The leaders of the Australian Pentecostal Movements, after I shared this, all agreed, as did the Board of the Australian Christian Churches. Thus the wisest course of action was to continue to encourage relational and organic connections between all our churches but not to attempt to build and drive an organisation that is trying to represent us all. Thus we are officially closing the door on the concept of the New Church Network and officially disbanding the organisation Australian Christian Churches.
I encourage you, if you have any concerns at all, to contact your denominational leadership as they have been involved with the process or feel free to drop me a line. As I have said in the various meetings, I feel like I have some egg on my face as the fire that I was stoking I am now suggesting we put out. Of course we are doing so with the agreement of the leaders involved. I guess we are trying to make sure we are not being carried away by what we can do but wisely doing what God has called us to do.
Finally, from a pragmatic point of view, the following action steps are being taken in winding down ACC:
§ Website (www.australianchristianchurches.com) has been closed
§ Churches using ACC logo and/or references on their stationery, publications, or building are encouraged to remove them at their earliest convenience
Yours sincerely,
Phil Baker”
And now another leaked letter …eagerly snatched in the fluttering breeze after flying off the back of a truck…
This time from someone called ‘Keith’ in the national office (probably Keith Ainge, AOG National Secretary http://www.aog.org.au/AboutUs/OurLeadership/NationalSecretaryKeithAinge/tabid/150/Default.aspx )
“Dear Pastor/Church Leader
It is possible that you recently received a letter from Pastor Phil Baker explaining that he is not proceeding with his plans to expand the Australian Christian Churches (ACC) to the New Church Network. I am writing to explain the implications of this for our Assembly of God Churches and Pastors.
Our National Executive made it clear, when the change to New Church Network was first suggested, that we retain ownership of the ACC name and reserve the right to use it for the benefit of our AOG churches. Final details are still being worked out but it is intended to re-launch ACC as an interface of the Assemblies of God movement with the community. This re-launch will take place at our National conference on the Gold Coast, next April. You will note that we will not cease to be the AOG but that ACC will increasingly become the “brand” used as our public face.
A new logo is being prepared for ACC but AOG pastors and churches are welcome to continue to use the ACC name and logo, as it is, until the re-launch in April 2007. I trust that this clarifies our position.
Keep up the great work you are doing for God!
Regards
Keith”
Interesting words that ‘Keith’ has used here…
” he is not proceeding with his plans”
That’s funny…I thought Baker said it was a collective agreement of the penty leaders to end ‘Australian Christian Churches’
“The leaders of the Australian Pentecostal Movements, after I shared this, all agreed, as did the Board of the Australian Christian Churches.”
..and now ‘Keith’ is painting it as ‘his’ (Phil Baker’s) plans.
So has ‘Keith’ unilaterally over-ridden the wishes of the various denominations and the President of Australian Christian Churches, by re-establishing an entity that’s already decided should be disbanded?
Were some in the AOG playing along with Baker, until he relinquished control of ‘Australian Christian Churches’ so they could move in?
What is Brian Hou$ton’s role? Is Hou$ton telling Baker one thing, while hatching a different plan with the AOG National office to seize back control?
Someone has double-crossed someone else here……it’ll just be interesting to see who.
It’s an important lesson though for the non-penty churches that were contemplating joining ACC….that these are the kind of cowboys who run the thing..and who you would have had to submit yourself to….while not disagreeing and tarnishing ‘the brand’.
“A new logo is being prepared for ACC but AOG pastors and churches are welcome to continue to use the ACC name and logo, as it is, until the re-launch in April 2007″
We’ll have to make sure Signposts gets an invite to the re-launch.
September 26th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
This is interesting! I thought the ACC was Brian’s little baby….
Hmmmmm
September 26th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
Very interesting.
“I began to think that maybe the best course of action for the church is to work more by stealth to influence society, one life, one family and one community at a time”
He’s right. That’s what the mainstream church has been doing much of the time, while Baker’s class has been taking the high road.
“there is a whole new family of churches from a wide range of denominations who are doing church in a new way”
There is! He must have been reading some of the blogs listed along the side of the page.
September 26th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
And as soon as I read the story about the property dev on the News website I knew Lance was going to announce it. Like the possum story, the church might not have been named if it hadn’t been a megachurch.