hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
September 27th, 2006 at 12:04 am
Lance,
I really cannot handle the intrigue …
Did Phil Baker disband the ACC / NCN because the Truth about the way the Church is supposed to ‘work’ getting through to him (i hope so) …
Or
Did Phil Baker not want to be aboard the metaphorical battleship when the missiles are launched (especially with the ‘Suffer the Little Children’ documentary and Tanya Levin’s book both being released in 2007. (If so shrewd move).
But
Is Brian Houston in his capacity as President of the AOG playing the puppeteer in a bid to control the ACC via the AOG through ‘Keith’ …
Are
Brian Houston and Phil Baker philosophically at odds (again I hope so) as Hillsong moves headlong into the Word-Of-Faith movement / Prosperity Theology movement alongside Benny Hinn and Joyce meyer et al … as Riverview wants to head away from this heretical movement from which it began …?
Geez, the suspense is killing me!
September 27th, 2006 at 6:24 am
The point that Janet makes at 770 regarding transference is exactly the point that I made to my friends/family when we first started looking at Hope£ity to try and find out what their teachings were and who they were associated with. We knew that even if Hope£ity was a Hill$ong clone that it would be ridiculus to automatically assume any wrongdoing or shady activities by the people in charge of Hope£ity.
Initially I had some difficulties in trying to find out verifiable information on exactly what Hope£ity stood for - hence my posting on Signposts. However with the updating of the Hope£ity website a lot of my questions were answered. My thanks again to Lionfish for confirming the article on tithing on Hope£ity was taken from BrianHoustons ‘You need more money’, as this is exactly the info I came here looking for.
As I said in my earlier posts (all joking aside) the style of worship at Hope£ity and Hill$ong is not to my personal taste, but that’s down to individual preference. I do think it is all style and no substance however. What disturbs me though is the prosperity gospel message Hill$ong & Hope£ity are teaching. I find it difficult to express just how far removed the Hill$ong teachings are from the Church background I grew up in (very sleepy SA and CoE) and how so obviously twisted the teaching is. I also find disturbing the mix of Church and business. A very large percentage of the Hope£ity website is concerned with business opportunities. There is a section called ‘Pigs Can Fly’ which is about wealth creation and Hope£ity seems to exist largely as a place to conduct business, meet other business people and make money. I don’t understand how this ties in with Hope£ity supposedly being a church - how can it be both a Church and a business centre?
One other thing that struck me is the emphasis at Hope£ity on looking good (especially for women) and on everything being ‘fun’ ‘having a laugh’ ‘keeping it real’. They are obsessed with the idea that everyone has to see exactly how much fun they are all having, it’s almost as if they are embarrassed at being seen as Christians and are overcompensating for this.
Interestingly enough this ties in with the point that Wiggy made at 769 about being seen to be doing good. The personality of a church elder I know was summed up to me by a psychologist as being ’someone who had to be seen to be doing good’. It certainly helped explain how someone who was so self-centered and unpleasant could be so involved in church & charity work. Again, I’m not saying for one moment that everyone is like that, but I know a few personally. Luckily I also know some who are completely genuine in their motives for doing church/community work.
Perhaps your journalists would like to come to the UK?
September 27th, 2006 at 10:02 am
Gosh, how things move on in a couple of days. Intriguing to see how this ACC business unfolds.
While doing other things, I’ve been reflecting on the cautionary tale of Silentbob, and I’d like to record those reflections… thereafter I intend to stop harping on about it.
Let me make it clear I think anger is a good thing… it provides immense energy, it stirs us on behalf of those who are victims, it can move mountains if channeled well. Anger in control is like the bullet from a sniper’s rifle… who executes detailed plans, waits for the right moment, and hits a target with precision.
Anger in a less reflective person can cause much “collateral damage”… it’s a bit like a person running around firing buckshot wildly… sure, some might hit the target, but a lot of unnecessary hurt happens along the way.
I might be wrong… but I had the feeling Silentbob got hit with some buckshot… that anger best directed at the leadership of Oxford Falls got transfered to him. (He was just a member of the church remember!)
Transference works like this… Boss gives Fred a horrible time at work. Fred gets home… wife says something that sounds a little like boss. Wife gets blown away with abuse by Fred who’s “snapped”. Fred stomps off to the shed and kicks the dog on the way.
Did wife really “deserve” being yelled at by Fred? No… she just evoked the image of the real culprit by what she said.
Did the dog deserve the kick? No… the poor creature was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Did Silentbob really deserve “you are not interested in following Jesus” etc. etc.? Too early to tell… but probably not! More likely he was a half decent person wanting to follow Jesus, repeating some of what he’s absorbed… and may he have been willing to dialogue and evaluate this stuff if he’d received less fiery and judgmental responses. Maybe.
And on to the “respectful dialogue with Alan Meyer” business… is there not a bit of transference going on here too… a mindset “he’s in with the boys network and they’re all the same”?
Alright… let’s look at some of the Signposts accusations against BH:
He earns an exhorbitant amount of money for a minister.
He is a bully to staff, and exploits both staff and volunteers.
He’s an empire builder.
There is serious financial mismanagement and utter lack of financial transparency, including misuse of taxpayer funded government grants… serious enough to be up for criminal investigation.
Church governance is done by a “closed shop boys club”
He promotes prosperity doctrine: that getting rich is a godly virture, and that if you give money to the church then God will make you rich.
Abusive, narcissistic, etc. etc.
Let’s look at the Signposts accusations against AM:
He has a poorly thought through view about homosexuality. (sorry Lance, but this is like 90%+ of ministers… is this is a lynch-worthy crime we’d have to lynch vast numbers of ministers)
He teaches tithing… (like many ministers)… a more legalistic form than many, although (I gather) with not the extreme prosperity focus of BH (tithe in order to be rich). Someone said he’s willing to debate this. Good… let’s debate it… I disagree with “legalistic” tithing!
He gave away a car. (Sounds really tacky… but do we know what really went on there? What if a local car yard gave a car to a couple of churches on the condition it wasn’t sold?… publicity for them, of course. Now the Catholics would sensibly know what to do with it and raffle it off… all the families at the parish school would be given 20 tickets to flog off, members would sit in the shopping centre selling tickets… they would make a fortune! But what if you had made a very public stand against what gambling was doing to the fabric of your community? Would you just refuse the car? Or go, hang it…let’s give it away to illustrate what it’s like to receive the gift of grace? I don’t know… I’m speculating wildly… but this is my point. Why don’t we ask what happened and why, rather than
dismissing him outright? What happened to “innocent until proven guilty”?)
He’s spoken at Hillsong (shoot him on the spot!)
I’m not saying AM is some kind of paragon… I’m just pointing out there’s no solid evidence “they’re all the same”. The two lists are very different. The character of Careforce strikes me as very different to the character of Hillsong. But based on the reactions to date, is there any chance AM would be given the benefit of the doubt? Or would the transferance thing happen again, and he’d cop all the pent up wrath that perhaps others deserve more? Based on the Silentbob incident… one suspects the latter. And if so, this is intellectual laziness… “they’re all the same” is so much easier than “here’s a new person and it behoves me to suspend judgment til I have more information”… even when all my “buttons” are being pushed, a bit of restraint won’t kill me.
As I said at the start… anger is a good thing… and properity doctrine is a really good target.
Still… anger is a dangerous thing so it’s important to be reflective. Not only so the targets are well chosen and the collateral damage is minimal… but because of what it can do to the soul along the way. Anger can start well and end badly. Sometimes victims when empowered end up behaving just like their former oppressors. There are some pretty pathetic souls sitting in old folks homes who have become defined by what they are against rather than what by they are for… souls who are so negative they cannot see beauty and joy and wonder in anyone or anything… souls where a “root of bitterness” grew and took over. Miserable, lonely, embittered souls. God help me… may my own pain never take root and make me like that.
I don’t see obvious signs of that fate for anyone here… I’m just reflecting that anger can start out good and end up ugly… that there’s a need to listen to the Spirit and to test one’s motives… to know when it’s time to pick up arms, and know when it’s time to walk away… when the moment comes that Yaweh calls us to beat swords into a plowshares we need to be willing to do just that.
Gosh, I did go on, didn’t I?
I do appreciate that I’ve been treated very respectfully on all this, and I promise not to push my luck! I support the cause, even if I question the methods at times.
May your anger be righteous and your targets well chosen.
September 27th, 2006 at 11:01 am
Great post Janet. Well thought through and articulated well…..
May our anger be Godly and considered rather than vindictive and reactive…..
September 27th, 2006 at 11:43 am
Janet - to write like that is inspiring. The Christians have been accused of shooting our wounded. At signposts we don’t shoot the wounded… we shoot the healthy AND the wounded.
September 27th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Lionfish - did i read where you agreed that tithing is okay to be taught as a discipline? Please elaborate in what way pro tithing could be taught.
September 27th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
Janet,
Good post. You will also notice that Leadership in these ‘networked’ churches has by-and-large been the only target. The people in these Churches are generally great, talented, authentic and genuine people.
People went in hard based on SilentBob’s comments, which where not really well thought through and he indicated that he would just trust his Pastor upon ‘face value’ - without looking at the facts. Yes, admittedly a little too hard.
Nobody is saying that Allan Meyer is a Brian Houston clone.
However he is on the same lucrative speaking circuit, is upheld as the expert on tithing in Churches ranging from Christian Ourtreach Centre’s to Hillsong, indoctrinates Leaders from a variety of Churches into his views on Tithing. Speaking in Churches has to be seen as a general endorsement of that Church in the same way that a celebrity has to take responsibility for promoting a product that he/she believes in to a reasonably large degree.
I am not familiar with Careforce, from what I understand it has a good counselling service and committment to missions particularly in India.
Allan does however sit on the Board of Riverview Church, which has a governance structure with striking similarities to Hillsong, does not issue detailed financials and as Saint points out is part of the network of Churches with links to Hillsong and Hinn, Ray McCauley in South Africa etc.
What scares me most though in the Contemporary Church is Allan’s adoption and endorsement of ‘Apostolic Hermenutics’ which rejects much of the structure and traditional processes used to safetly and correctly interpret the Bible.
The increasing prominence of Apostolic Hermenutics provides justification for teaching tithing (inappropraitley) but also the introduction of many unorthodox teachings (icluding heresiies) under the guise of “new wine”.
The issue at hand is broader and more dangerous than tithing, and we will discuss this as a separate post in due course.
For now, my wife and I just had a baby girl yesterday and I wish to spend some time with family - and not debating theology.
September 27th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Congratulations Lionfish.
September 27th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
I hope your new little girl brings you much joy and delight….
September 27th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Macadamia Nut,
I have to be brief today …
Have a good read through Romans 14, which allows people to take on diciplines (or not too) eg. Sabbath keeping, dietary restrictions, standing on ones head and singing “kum bah ya” etc. … but these practices of discipines are a matter of conscience for each man himself, and STRICTLY not to be enforced or binding on other Christians
I think this is exacltly what haydn nelson meant by his post on Phil Bakers Blog:
“Those items of belief seen as not essential to salvation. In Lutheran thought the adiaphora were defined as practices of the church that were neither commanded nor forbidden in Scripture. In contemporary terms, adiaphora are those things not clearly addressed by Scripture that Christians may freely practice or believe with a clear conscience before God and that do not affect salvation”.
Source: http://www.philbaker.net/blog/3697
Tithing has been a practice or rather a “tradition” for some groups of Christians since circa 400 AD - and incorporated into the state taxation system as there was a blending of Church and state at various points in history. Also bear in mind, there is no scriptural precedent for Christians to tithe … it was introduced in the same way the catholics introduced eating fish on Friday’s!. A “tradition” not a “scriptural mandate”.
The fact that people can choose a set percentage, whether it be 10% (a tithe in Church speak), 2%, 20% or what ever is the only new testament precedent (to give propotionally,and as God has placed on ones heart, never out of compulsion). It is between the individual and their creator.
The way that tithing is taught in the contemporary church is one of “under compulsion”, (contradictory to Corinthians 6? “not under complusion) it brings peoples consciences into bondage (or worse risking self-righteousness through law keeing if they do tithe),it incorrectly appeals to the old testamnet laws (eg. malachi 3:10) and infers people they will be blessed or cursed if they do or don’t, (despite the NT clearly states that Christ became the curse for us),
The way the mainstream church teaches is that one must ‘freely give and you have freely recieved’.
I am not at odds with supporting the Chucrh or the Pastor (caveats applied to Churches with lack of transparency and accountability and pastors making big $$$’s on the spaeking circuit) … in fact it is a responsibility.
Ten percent may be a good measure, but for others they should give as it is placed on their heart (not out of complusion). Tithing should never be a condistion of Membership, (espacially in order to obatin the blessings of God), nor should it be a qualification for Leadership (where is it mentioned in Timothy or Titus).
Hope this makes sense … “no scriptural mandate for Christians”, “tradition” at best, Christians are not under compulsion, don’t feel guilty about not tithing, just get responsible about ‘whole of life stewardship’.
Gotta run!
September 27th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Congrats on the arrival of your little lionessfish.
May you all be richly blessed
September 27th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
don’t wait as long as i did to send out pics LF congrats
September 27th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Congratulations LF!
For goodness sakes, get off Signposts and just look at those tiny little fingers in wonder… those ones that will tug on your heartstrings forever.
September 27th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Thanks guys … she truly is beautiful to behold.
Truly a precious gift from above. Thank you Lord.
September 27th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
Lionfish - Thanks for the reply - somehow I missed you were having a baby - Double thanks, Congrats to you! we’ll post on money later, but pay attention to the more wieghtier matters at the moment.
September 27th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Congratulations Lionfish.
Remember to give a 10th of your baby bonus to Phil Baker.
September 28th, 2006 at 6:28 am
Oh, I missed this too - got sidetracked by other threads!
Lionfish, CONGRATULATIONS!! That is fantabulous news!!
September 28th, 2006 at 6:58 am
Really cool, congrats, enjoy her every moment. They turn into beautiful teen aged women before you know it.
rev
September 28th, 2006 at 7:44 am
Yeah, then your car insurance goes through the roof … thenn she brings some guy home and ends up married, they have 2.3 kids and then grandchildren. It goes by like a blur..
September 29th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Blessed to be a…….recording studio owner.
This was in the paper last year, but it slipped under the Lance radar at the time…
“Darlene Zschech Australia’s biggest-selling Christian singer has bought one of the country’s best-known studios, which has been used to record albums by artists such as Silverchair, Delta Goodrem, Missy Higgins and Grinspoon. The studio on the NSW Central Coast was purchased by the Hillsong artist for $2.2m.”
http://thegrovestudios.com/the.plant/index.php?ID=39
September 30th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Just for anyone who missed it…
Orehek Stands Trial Over Property Scheme*
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Orehek-stands-trial-over-property-scheme/2006/09/29/1159337334032.html
*No comment is allowed by law on this court case until Mr. Orehek’s trial ends.
September 30th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Greg is a reallyt cool name for a little girl…just in case you hadn’t chosen one yet! Exceptional news Lionfish, blessing to you and your family
September 30th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Welcome to the world little Lionfish!
Congratulations!
October 1st, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Lance,
Darls has had that recording studio for years now!
October 1st, 2006 at 12:59 pm
Oh Congrats Lionfish.
What did you name her : Lionessguppy?
Should we start a thread on potential names for Lionfish jnr?
October 1st, 2006 at 2:34 pm
I think I’ve already suggested the one and only name that requires suggesting…don;t you think Neil?
October 2nd, 2006 at 2:17 am
“Lance,
Darls has had that recording studio for years now!”
I can’t be first with the news ALL the time.
October 3rd, 2006 at 6:32 am
One thing that’s been bugging me lately about the ‘contemporary’ church…and particularly youth-related things is the over-use of the exclamation mark!
Like …every sentence or second sentence ends with an exclamation mark!
For example….We had an awesome time at our youth group on Friday night!
Or….don’t miss Kenneth Copeland who’s going to be in Perth!
Or…. I’ve just bought the new Steve Grace album and it rocks!
Even the most boring sentences can have new life, just by tacking an exclamation mark on the end!
Such as …..I’ve just bought 100 boxes of communion wafers!
Or… Mark Driscoll is going to spend 4 hours tonight talking about five-point Calvinism!
Or…Gee, this service is really boring!
I think the must-do thing in the Christian youth culture of adding an exclamation mark at the end of most sentences is just a way of disguising that you’ve really got nothing of substance to say!
Yawn!
October 3rd, 2006 at 8:36 am
Awesome point Lance!
October 3rd, 2006 at 10:38 am
Well, Elaine on Seinfeld wrote abook that had too many exclamation points. The whole episode was about the over use of exclamation Points!!!!!!