hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 13th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
David…
It was Mick Malthouse who explained once that the Chinese have the same word for ‘crisis’ and ‘opportunity’.
Maybe they have the same dual-meaning for ‘luck’.
In practice dogdy prosperity theology is at the same time - unlucky for the believer … but lucky for the teachers.
April 13th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
‘As professional Bible teachers these guys are responsible for what they teach.’
More than agreed. The Bible is irrefutably clear on this.
‘ If they do not use accepted practices then they should be found professionally negligent for malpractice.’
I do not think accepted practices is the yardstick for good Biblical teaching. For example, if I were to adopt some ‘accepted practices’ from the Hillsong environment around me, I would be violating my conscience as to what I believe good Biblical teaching is.
April 13th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Urbanmonk (re 41)
I have to say, I’ve never thought of ‘lamenting’ as being a form of worship. In my eyes, worship is something that focuses on, and exalts, God. I guess I always found lamenting to be more focusing on the situation around us, rather than focusing on the greatness of God. If its focusing on God and his greatness, its hard to be positive in at least some way. You dont have to shout and jump and be superhyperjesusman positive, but its still positive. I won’t take your word for it urban, but I will definately look into the lamenting as worship idea.
I guess though, its almost as if we worship God by magnifying his greatness, or reducing ourselves… I guess the worship is in the acknowledging the great divide between ourselves and God.
Hmmm…
As for the ones we gathered around in prayer for; it was for things like finding employment, sick family members and marriage troubles. I guess (to apply a generic theme to them all for postings sake) we prayed for a healing and restoration on the lives of those involved…
Hope that answers your question…
April 13th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Luke
I didn’t say your expression was more blasphemous than Pat’s talk..
I was saying it was blaspemous
April 13th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Have to agree with Will
I dont think you can say lamenting is worship.
Yes it is biblical and valid but not worship
April 13th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Battle for the faith going down at http://www.radar.smh.com.au
not for the faint hearted but the apologetically prepared and the gracious thinkers among us. God bless brothers and sisters
(ps. Im emblazoned, and made the mistake of mentioning I went to hillsong. wont do that one again)
April 13th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
Steve
I am not Hillsong or AOG. I have noticed some of these discrepancies within HS for a number of years. Yes it needs to be addressed and solved.
but
I am starting to swing to pro HS after many of the comments on these boards.
We are judging BH & HS beyond what is biblically acceptable.
Jesu said ..to pull the beam out of our own eye before we address the splinter in our brothers eye.
If God put the spotlight on us would we be able to stand.
If we are going to judge HS & BH then God is allowed to judge our lives in an equally tough manner.
I do believe some of the comments about HS being a cult are rubbish.
And some of the people have taken this opportunity to attack pentecostals and certain practises. Their own bisa and bigotry is starting to show.
I wonder how God views their hearts - hypocrisy??????
April 13th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Iraneus …
“Error never shows itself in its naked reality, in order not to be discovered. On the contrary, it dresses elegantly, so that the unwary may be led to believe that it is more truthful than truth itself”.
I like it… straight to the pool room with that one!
http://underneathejetty.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Another testimony you won’t hear at Hillsong…
“I just want to say I am a single guy in my mid forties, I used to be a christian , i was a missionary on more than one occasion, i used to sing in the choir at Hillsong church. However I have discovered for single forty-plus guys like me that we are classed by most of the church as either desperate, gay or child molesters or all of the above. The only way we can legitimately have any sort of relationship with a woman let alone a meaningful sex life is if we can get married -something that in our situation in the church is a chance similar to buckley’s so unless we want to turn up to church and sing and smile every week and put up with the rest of our lonely lives in quiet desperation than we have to move out of that framework to have any life at all.
Posted by: Matthew at April 12, 2006 01:18 PM
http://radar.smh.com.au/archives/cover_story_comment/001882.html
April 13th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
A statement with a certain aesthetic flair, Lionfish. It is seductively true, is it not?
April 13th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
The comment by Matthew on the Sydney radar web site is pretty tragic but unfortunately has a ring of truth about it . The majority of people don’t want to live a life of life long celibacy and most people who advocate it for single people are married so they have no idea what its like to be celibate for a long period of time .
I was actually in a pretty similar situation to this many years ago and I made a conscious decision that I just couldn’t live a celibate life any more .
I wonder whether there are any churches out there who are honest and compassionate about this issue.
April 13th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
So what are the churches supposed to do …free sex for everyone
Maybe free alcohol for all the drunks
Free drugs for the druggies
Jesus said…to pick up your cross and follow him
These ‘christians” are pathetic. Lets blame the church because we cant find a spouse or we are lonely or blah blah blah
Maybe Brian Houston was right - GET A LIFE
Can we get any more cowardly christians.
I suppose the poor useless christians in China, North Korea who are suffering are just missing out.
So we criticise HS for not talking about suffering and we have christians who leave HS because they cant take the pressure
April 13th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
Ned ,
I love you to bits mate . You make a magnificent contribution every time - priceless
April 13th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Thanks Katherine………..so pleased I am a blessing
Some reality in the churches that I would like to get some comments.
This scenario is commonplace in churches all over.
Single man/woman cant find partner. Do all the spiritual things and no answers from God. The desires of the flesh are strong so end up in an immoral situation or marry non christian or have illegitimate baby.
Blame then the church for not answering prayers or being too legalistic and use excuse to leave.
Many years later solo parent comes back to church after making mess of life. Either divorced or battered withh kids in toe.
Financially a mess, physically a mess, kids are a mess.
Now who is to blame - I have seen this scenario.
Lets all blame the church - no one wants to accept any personal responsibility
April 13th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Lastly expect the church to fix up the screwed up kids which they produced.
Must make God sigh!!!!!!!!!!!
April 13th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
Will, (#61) This is a quote from a leading scholar on the Psalms ( Walter Brueggemann - if your interested) from his book, Spirituality of the Psalms…
“Much Christian piety and spirtuality is romantic and unreal in its positiveness. As children of the enlightenment, we have censored and selected around the voice of darkness and disorientation, seeking to go from strength to strength, from victory to victory. But such a way not only ignores the Psalms; it is a lie in terms of our experience… the Psalms are profoundly subversive of the dominant culture, which wants to deny and cover over the darkness we are called to enter. Personally we shun negetivity. Publicly, we deny the failure of our attempts to exercise control… But through its propaganda and the ideology of consumerism, our society ( and churches) goes its way in pretense. Against all of this the Psalms issue a mighty protest and invite us into a more honest facing of the darkness. The reason the darkness may be faced and lived in is that even in the darkness, there is One to address. The One to address is in the darkness but is not simply a part of the darkness (John 1:1 - 5). Because this ONe has promised to be in the darkness with us, we find the darkness strangely transformed, not by the power of easy light, but by the power of relentless solidarity… ( and this is the clincher for me) … the honest recognition that there is an untamed darkness in our life that must be embraced - all of that is fundamental to the gift of new life.”
I would argue Will ( and any body else that cares to listen) that the relentless positivism of Hillsong, is a distortion of a holisticly biblical view of life and faith… this is as much an issue as any kind of materialistic doctrine you find there. Perhaps a greater problem in that this area tends to really go to the depths of peoples souls… ( I may be a little biased)
Whaddaya think mate? We often hear prayers for health, healing, the overcoming of obstacles we find in our path… But perhaps the greatest gift is that Christ comes to us in our weakness, not our strength… Perhaps being at peace in the face of insurmountable obstacles is better than striving for Victory. to be honest, I dont know how hillsong ( if its not too much a generalisation) manage to remain so positive in the face of such a suffering world. Its either denial of reality, or they truly are the Chosen people coz let me tell you the rest of the world is groaning.. Forgive me everybody.. its not my intention to hijack the thread… I just think this is an area of debate aswell… Any other thoughts?
April 13th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
“So what are the churches supposed to do …free sex for everyone
Maybe free alcohol for all the drunks
Free drugs for the druggies”
Free Hillsong music for arm-waving eye-squinting clueless dickheads….
Free Geoff Woodward sermons for wankers….
Yes, I see your point.
BTW…..Look forward to all the sightings of the Easter Bunny around the kids at the ‘contemporary’ churches this long weekend….as these ‘contemporary’ churches remember the ‘real’ meaning of Easter.
April 13th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
To my shock, I’m finding myself agreeing with Ned on some points. I think the church undersells the message of Christ that to save your life you must lose it… that you must take up your cross every day and follow. Jesus was incredibly upfront about the fact that to follow Him involves suffering and sacrifice. He modelled celibacy Himself (unless you believe the Da Vinci code is a more authoritative account of the life of Christ than the gospels!!!)… the scriptures make clear that a single life fully dedicated to the Lord’s work is a high calling.
On the other hand… the problem with Western Protestant church culture, as I see it, is that it is captivated by middle class ideals… a “good Christian” is a married, home-owning, financially responisble middle class professional with 2.5 kids. (Just like Jesus!!!!????) So instead of being highly esteemed, singles are marginalised. At least the Catholics esteem single priests and nuns, recognise their high calling and sacrifice, and establish them in supportive communities. Whereas many Protestant churches do marginalise singles of a certain age, and leave them socially isolated. They suffer not only for their singleness, but for their failure to conform. If we were true to the scriptures, Christian singles would be more highly esteemed than those who are married… the reverse is often sadly true. Christ have mercy on us.
April 13th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Ned ( #72)
“Jesus treated those who had fallen into sexual sins with compassion and forgiveness, and reserved his harshest words for the hidden sins of hypocrisy, pride, greed, and legalism.” - Philip Yancey
Duh! the healthy dont need a doctor mate! Physician, heal thy self…
April 13th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Steve (#60) writes:
“I do not think accepted practices is the yardstick for good Biblical teaching. For example, if I were to adopt some ‘accepted practices’ from the Hillsong environment around me, I would be violating my conscience as to what I believe good Biblical teaching is”.
>> I am not talking about widely ‘accepted’ practice (as is the case in AOG) rather the proper use of good principles.
If most builders neglected to lay a solid foundation when constructing a house that may well be ‘accepted’ practice - but it is certainly not the proper use of good structural design principles.
These builders would be professionally negligent - because good design principles are commonly available.
April 13th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
David writes: A statement with a certain aesthetic flair, Lionfish. It is seductively true, is it not? (#68)
Seductive by definition means “lure or entice away from duty, principles, or proper conduct” …
If Truth is true, perfect and holy then how can it then be seductive?
The Gospel of prosperity taught by the Houston’s and Mesiti’s of the world (excuse the pun) is seductive – because it leads away from Truth.
People can be attracted to Truth – but not seduced by Truth.
April 13th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Ned ( #72)
Why dont you line up all the little bastard children and their mothers in front of the alter on sunday and give them a decent hosing… then you can cast the first stone, brother… I have only gotten a clearer glimpse of Gods grace and love for me after I fucked up my life badly… And I continue to get broader glimpses as I continue to fuck up my life.. do you see what I am saying? I read a wonderful paraphrase of the beatitudes the other night, written by someone who understood them, tell me what you think…
It goes, ” BLessed are the fucked, coz they know they are fucked!”
Are you fucked Ned?
April 13th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Will ( #61)
If there is anything I learn from the Psalms, its that worship is about my tears… Its not another “idea” about worship, its about worship as it was intended, all of life coming under the ONE who entered the darkness of the world… not to extract us from darkness, but to transform the darkness.
April 14th, 2006 at 12:17 am
“Whereas many Protestant churches do marginalise singles of a certain age, and leave them socially isolated.”
What? All you singles. You want MORE human contact than 90 minutes a week or a fortnight at home group…listening to Mrs. Doovawacky drone out about how she’s ‘trusting God for a breakthrough in the area of her rose garden’….and more human interaction than sitting on a plastic chair in which the church treasurer has discreetly farted, listening to Pat Mesiti tell you far-fetched stories about how he once ate a Chikito bar..and 10 hours later was shitting 100 dollar notes?
Greedy bastards you singles, just because I’m blessed with an on-call root over on the other side of my Peter Ferrall Bed’s Plus bed (the one with the Christian fish logo….God’s Own Mattrass) ..and we read Song of Songs together, and then hump each other senseless like Duracell Easter Bunny rabbits…….
Can’t you appreciate and celebrate my blessing..instead of wallowing in your own envy?
“Why dont you line up all the little bastard children and their mothers in front of the alter on sunday and give them a decent hosing… then you can cast the first stone, brother… I have only gotten a clearer glimpse of Gods grace and love for me after I fucked up my life badly… And I continue to get broader glimpses as I continue to fuck up my life.. do you see what I am saying? I read a wonderful paraphrase of the beatitudes the other night, written by someone who understood them, tell me what you think…
It goes, ” BLessed are the fucked, coz they know they are fucked!”
Are you fucked Ned?”
The whole church in Perth is fucked, so that’s a given.
April 14th, 2006 at 12:22 am
illegitimate son thank you for verifying my point which you so obviously have no idea
Ever heard of grace to make the right choices.
We all live in the same world withe the same pressures.
How many people are you gonna blame for your life??
April 14th, 2006 at 12:33 am
lance
Your perspective of the church is its all bad.
So you KNOW everyone that is a christian. You can judge everyone by your own hurt and pain.
Read the story of Joseph. Why is that in the bible.
I have known plenty of injustice and suffering in my own life and in other christians.
Is there pain - yes
Is there anger and hate - yes
Is there despair - yes.
I prefer to be made whole and it started when I decided to stop looking at everyone else and looking at my own heart.
I have read your posts. You are a smart guy. You are knowledgeable of the Bible and christian ways.
Why are you allowing yourself to be robbed of peace and blessing?
April 14th, 2006 at 12:52 am
“Ever heard of grace to make the right choices.
We all live in the same world withe the same pressures.”
Listen cunt, (and I do mean ‘cunt’)
How do you deal with having 6 kids and your husband has just lost his job…since ‘we all live in the same world with the same pressures’.
How do you deal with being locked up in a detention centre for years at a time, in the midst of a culture and a legal system and a language that you’ve never encountered before…since ‘we all live in the same world with the same pressures’.
How do you feel about being Aboriginal and living in Gosnells, and being fondled by your grandad because all your brothers and sisters and cousins had to go through the same thing and it’s the culture that no-one speaks up about it because….’we all live in the same world with the same pressures’.
How have you come to terms with being gay in a church and often a cultural setting that doesn’t accept you for who you are and who you love…….since ‘we all live in the same world with the same pressures.
I’m genuinely impressed Ned that you’ve gone through all these things and more…..’since we all live in the same world with the same pressures’.
Or maybe the only world you’ve ever known is the comfortably middle-class happy-clappers …… ‘who all live in the same (insulated) world with the same pressures’..
Remember to toddle off to the temple this morning….and tithe, and pray …and thank God that He died for people like you who make ‘right choices’… and that you’re not like those ’sinners’.
Dickhead.
April 14th, 2006 at 2:04 am
Ned, Lance… take a breath.
Back to your corners.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:45 am
Happy Easter Signpost peeps!!!
Woke up early to watch Joyce Meyer, she’s so funny!!
Love always
Charli
April 14th, 2006 at 9:43 am
Ned,
What point have i verified? You didnt answer my question? No I have no idea what you are talking about except to say that your perspective seems very hard nosed. “The fucked” know they cant blame anyone for being fucked, thats why they are blessed. Coz they know they are incapable of making the right choices. Ever heard of A.A.? Or known someone who was follower of jesus, but couldnt get off the smack… But I guess the black and white tower that you live in precludes you from any point of view other than your own… You still havent answered my question… Are you fucked?
Lance: you crack me up