hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
November 3rd, 2006 at 1:17 pm
hmmmm…
http://fiveminuteargument.blogspot.com/2006/11/mango-gelato-i-like-it-but-im-not.html
Lionfish, did you post your list of questions re: budgets, financial accountability etc?!!
Ok, I can understand people who won’t publish nasty comments on their blog, or who get overwhelmed with rubbish - especially nasty rubbish. But this seems a little extreme…
I also note that Lance posted the link to the post on the 1st of November. So I seriously doubted that she took it down ‘a week ago’.
November 3rd, 2006 at 1:21 pm
The last line is (was?!) this:
“Leave me a comment, give me a hollaback if I’ve touched a nerve or left something out. It’s getting real late… zzzzz…”
You know what bugs me the most? Christians are constantly saying “look, come and talk to me if you have any concerns”, “come talk to me, I won’t bite - come and ask me about finances, about our approach to homosexuality, etc etc”, but 99% of the time it’s complete and utter bulldust.
November 3rd, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Congratulations to Hillsong for running the race and finishing with the prize.
Hillsong the horse that is….not to be confused with Hill$ong the cult.
“Ipswich Gallops Nov 2
TRACK GOOD
1-AINSWORTH Q T I S MDN HCP 1350m: 2.30 fav HILLSONG (ch f 3y Clang - Songtaine. Trainer: S A Dwyer) 56 (K Wharton) 1, 2.60 DASHABLONDE 54 (G Colless) 2, 11.00 DETERMINATION 54.5 (J L Taylor) 3. Then followed: 9.00 Yield Curve 5.00 Forever Autumn 71.00 Kell’s Way last. 7.00 Knebworth lost rider. All started. Lg nk, 1-3/4 len. Time: 1:21.30. (Last 600m 36.60).”
And unlike Hill$ong the cult, Hillsong the horse paid back more money ($2:30 on the QLD tote) to the faithful.
Note Darlene and Bobbie - Dashablonde came second.
November 3rd, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Bec,
I responded to Clovergirls invitation to comment (ie. “Leave me a comment, give me a hollaback if I’ve touched a nerve or left something out”) in relation to her blog post entitled “In Defense of My Church”.
Clovergirl emailed me to inform me that the purpose of her Blog “(is) to show pictures to my friends and to post my thoughts about the world, not to attack anyone or defend anything”.
I invited her to examine the facts about Hillsong and other Churches on the circuit as I have investigated the matter over the last year.
She has declined my offer and is not interested in “hearing my story”. I respect that because it is her perogative to do so - though I do feel that it is unhealthy for anyone to intentionally to remain ignorant about their beliefs.
And for the record, I had no intention of attacking Clovergirl
However it does sadden me that Hillsong Christians accuse us of spreading ‘misinformation’ and ‘lies’ but are never specific about the details of ‘the lies’ and:
1. Never want to engage in intelligent dialogue
2. Moderate comments (even those which are respectful) that are not aligned to their ‘worldview’
3. Stonewall honest enquiry (eg. responses to critiques on their doctrines, or refuse to issues finacial statements upon request, or answer questions realting to discrepencies in the media about ‘how they make their money’).
It is little wonder that the label of ‘Cult’ is attached to many of these Contemporary Churches.
The lack of intellectual dialogue and input into this site from any person in a Church that claims to have 20,000 independent and free- thinking Christians only reinforces the perception that Hillsong is in fact a cult.
C’mon, if you are a Hillsong member and truly believe that you are in an orthodox Church and not a cult / family owned business, then I challenge you to step up to the plate and enage with us - rationally and respetfully.
At this point in time I conclude, that beyond reasonable doubt - Hillsong and its counterpart Churches (including Riverview) are closed family owned Businesses that profit through deceptive (trade) practces on the shoulders of the naieve.
Nobody is yet to make a compelling case to the contrary.
November 4th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Not being funny but I’m trying to find out (without having to spend the hours research myself that most people on here I think may have already done) is to find the scriptures that talk about the model church and where it has to have a corporate governance structure of transperancy and accountability (modern ASIC words really I think). Can anyone help with that for me?
lonbpf
November 4th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
Ionbpf …
There is no model ‘goverance’ structure in the Bible, but the scriptures are replete with warnings about wrong doing, the prevalence of profiteers and also guiding principles (accountability, being above repraoch, being a good witness, ensuring that money collected for poor saints gets to the proper people).
Maybe this can shed some light:
http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/Article_012005_FinancialIntegrity.pdf
November 6th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Err…. don’t you have people on here who trawl the net looking for new articles that mention ‘Hillsong’ and copy them here? And when they’re posted I see comments like ‘unleash the hounds’ ‘let the comments begin’ and you wonder why these bloggers are reluctant to enter into a dialog with you?
It looks pretty overwhelming to me. IMHO it seems it would be easier for them to leave the can of worms unopened.
Btw if one was entirely convinced that their own point of view was correct, (as I see you are Lionfish) why would they feel the need to hear a different point of view? Are you open to hearing something that they would have to say? Listening to their story? I think this goes both ways, they’re probably pretty convinced of their point of view just like you.
This certainly doesn’t seem to be a non-threatening environment to people who might be pro-Hillsong or Riverview.
Just my two cents, for what it’s worth.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
“This certainly doesn’t seem to be a non-threatening environment to people who might be pro-Hillsong or Riverview.”
Would you suggest that Hill$ong and Revenue are non-threatening environments for people who might be anti-Hill$ong or Revenue.
I don’t think so..
November 6th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
You cannot reasonably dialogue with someone from Hill$ong or Revenue. Been there, done that, as have many others.
Could someone have had reasonable dialogue with Ted Haggard before last week about the gay issue?
No, because Haggard’s megachurch was built on his ‘lies and deception’..(Haggard’s own words for his conduct as the senior pastor of a church of 14,000 people)…
I see exactly the same arrogant and deceptive attitude from Haggard as I see from just about every pond-scum pastor I’ve met from the ‘contemporary’ church in Australia.
Reasonable dialogue? Sorry, I live in the real world.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Reading my prev post:
‘Btw if one was entirely convinced that their own point of view was correct, (as I see you are Lionfish) why would they feel the need to hear a different point of view? Are you open to hearing something that they would have to say? Listening to their story? I think this goes both ways, they’re probably pretty convinced of their point of view just like you.’
I should clarify, I didn’t mean to say that if there is no value in listening to a different point view, because that’s not what I believe. But only that I guess I would be curious as to why someone would be motivated to blog here should they be a Riverview or Hillsong supporter, as it seems that people here have pretty much made their mind up already?
Might they be afraid of having the hounds unleashed upon them? Or being called pondscum?
So that’s about 4 cents from me now.
November 6th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
“Are you open to hearing something that they would have to say? Listening to their story?”
Of course.
November 6th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
I trust Foundation that you will be tithing on that 4 cents?
November 6th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
Foundation, please humour us … stay a while and chat.
What is your position on tithing?
November 7th, 2006 at 2:52 am
“I guess I would be curious as to why someone would be motivated to blog here should they be a Riverview or Hillsong supporter, as it seems that people here have pretty much made their mind up already?”
I will grant you that my view of Hill$ong is just an opinion, but an opinion based on countless hours of studying sermons by Brian Houston and others, and listening to the accounts of people who were/are at Hill$ong.
As for Revenue, I was there. I was right in the middle of it. A bizarre group of lightweights adhering rigidly to a theology that was the opposite of what claimed to represent.
I have since quietly slipped into the odd service and nothing at all has changed..(apart from some minor ambience adjustments, eg. getting rid of the goons walking the aisles with their ties and earpieces…and new less-obvious TV cameras).
I’m starting to get a tad impatient with people who defend the indefensible at Revenue….who’ve never been there, or visited once for some event.
November 7th, 2006 at 9:56 am
No, I’m not defending Hillsong, or Riverview - never been there so can’t comment one way or another. I’m just saying that you seem to have a few double standards here, where you say you want these people to come and comment - which is fine, but then there are people searching the internet for them, and when you see their comments elsewhere you repost them here and deride them. (and follow them to their blogs and begin the onslaught!)
I’ve read a few of the posts here, but haven’t been here as long as most of you. Maybe this gives me a fresh perspective, maybe it means I have no right to comment - I don’t know. From what I’ve seen so far this isn’t a non-threatening environment for debate though, and I think you might feel like it is.
My position on tithing? Well, I’m not sure how I could get 1 tenth of 4cents
November 7th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
“….this isn’t a non-threatening environment for debate though, and I think you might feel like it is.”
I think a Christian who supports fraudulent activities by pastors SHOULD feel threatened.
It’s one thing in the Haggard case where he was carrying on a superb act that fooled everyone in the church, but it’s another thing where there is obvious deception and misconduct …..particularly at Hill$ong…..and Christians just put their fingers in their ears and go…’la….la…..la……la…….la….la….la’
November 7th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
You’ve every right to post here -just as others do. I think your right about this site not being non-threatening…it certainly isn’t if you on th other side of the debate…however neither are the other sites where people just delete your posts and stifle the debate. If you are confident of your own beliefs and ahve the theological arsonary to support your position then have at us - respect is the key - for both camps…and yes we ahve fallen down on that aspect quite a number of times…myself included.
November 8th, 2006 at 7:26 am
Lance Says:
November 7th, 2006 at 2:52 am
‘I will grant you that my view of Hill$ong is just an opinion’
Lance Says:
November 7th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
‘I think a Christian who supports fraudulent activities by pastors SHOULD feel threatened.’ ‘…where there is obvious deception and misconduct …..particularly at Hill$ong…’
Lance, doesn’t this then equate to you feeling justified in threatening people based only on your opinion? Well isn’t it okay then if they feel justified in ignoring you based on their opinion? Or worse, if they then felt justified in attacking you based on their opinion?
Isn’t this something which can only escalate? Or, forgive me for asking if this is an obvious comment, is that what you’re looking for?
November 8th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
I use threatening language with them, the same way that they use threatening language with gay people.
All’s fair in ‘the culture wars’.
If ‘contemporary’ churchgoers acted with kindness and benevolence towards gay people…then I would treat them with kindness as well, but these bastards need to understand that what they teach and how they behave does impact on people…and if that means they need to find that out the hard way …so be it.
And if that means I come across like a bitter old queen..well…so be it….I don’t particularly care how I’m perceived…….because the fact is… reasonable dialogue with these people in the ‘contemporary’ church does NOT work..never has and never will.
A good example of that is this Ted Haggard thing. Gay people are reacting with far too much grace …when this was a great opportunity to tell the church clearly and unambiguously..that the way that it has been conducting itself on gay issues has been totally unacceptable.
November 8th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
And I reckon AVB is being particularly naive` in his discussions with the AOG leaders about the gay thing, because he’s under-estimating how much of their ‘niceness’ is just a required act as part of their job.
These are not nice people…and you only have to push their buttons with your pinky finger for their true views on gay people to come out.
If anything should change Christians’ views on the gay thing, then it’s the Haggard episode.
I’ve spent the last day or so listening to talk radio in Denver which is basically having a Haggard-a-thon on its talkback ..and not one person has re-thought their position on gay people in the church…..not one….and that says to me there is nothing that will shock Christians into being reasonable.
Christians need to be firmly told by Government..that…..this is the 21st century…in the 21st century…gay people get equal rights and equal opportunities..and that includes in church life….(and for that matter…mosque life).
You cannot reason with most Christians…nor can most Christians learn from life-experience…and you certainly can’t reason with Christian leaders.
November 9th, 2006 at 10:07 am
That’s a lot of generalisations Lance.
‘If ‘contemporary’ churchgoers acted with kindness and benevolence towards gay people…then I would treat them with kindness as well, but these bastards need to understand that what they teach and how they behave does impact on people…and if that means they need to find that out the hard way …so be it.’
Do you stop and quiz each person on their view on homosexuality before you teach them ‘the hard way’? I know you said you used to go to Riverview - was this your experience there, that they weren’t treating gay people with kindness and benevolence? Have you been to Hillsong? Do they do the same thing?
‘I use threatening language with them, the same way that they use threatening language with gay people.’
And the bloggers who are getting targetted from this website? Are they threatening you too? Who is threatening you?
I certainly hope that I’m not judgemental towards people who are gay. I try not to be judgemental towards anyone, but I know I fail in that a lot of the time - mostly without even realising.
I’m not worried about the specks in other people’s eyes - I don’t even know how I would go about trying to get them out. I’m just focussing on the log in mine.
November 9th, 2006 at 11:03 am
Except that you appear to be asking questions of Lance and not yourself
November 9th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
“Christians need to be firmly told by Government..that…..this is the 21st century…in the 21st century…gay people get equal rights and equal opportunities..and that includes in church life….(and for that matter…mosque life).”
Note to all mujahadin and taliban soldiers. This comment was made by a man named Lance in Perth WA and in no way represents the views of the rest of us, that your mosques should be administrated by our irreligious and secular governments. If you see this as blasphemous to your religion we apologise.
November 9th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Greg, what is that supposed to mean? Monologues aren’t that interesting. Should I ask myself questions and post the answers as well?
November 9th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
“Note to all mujahadin and taliban soldiers. This comment was made by a man named Lance in Perth WA and in no way represents the views of the rest of us, that your mosques should be administrated by our irreligious and secular governments.”
A complete misrepresentation of what I said…(but what else can you expect from a pond-scum pastor.)
Churches and mosques can administer their own affairs, but I draw the line at mosques and churches having exemptions to the rules that everybody else lives under, and in particular, an exemption to sexual discrimination laws.
That the church or other religious organisations demand an exemption so that they can continue to practise sexual discrimination, only serves to show that these organisations are a blight on the community, not a positive contributor to community life.
November 9th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
It means that you say you don;t judge Lance but the words you type say a different thing. You said:
and then you persist in interrogating Lance about what you appear to consider his ’specks’. That’s how it looks to me anyway
November 9th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Hi all… long time listener, first time caller.
Lance are you a Christian? I understand that you’re homosexual but I was wondering if you were a Christian or not. By that I mean, do you belive Jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead and is alive today? Do you attend any church regularly (by this I mean the same church regularly) and do you have pastoral input into your spiritual life? Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God to man?
November 9th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Do I jump through all the required hoops to ‘deserve’ grace?
No.
November 9th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
What, women not good enough to get a word from God? Or is it that Men got it so badly screwed up that God’s got to spend all his time telling them to fix things up and he just let’s women get on with knowing they are loved and appreciated by God?
November 9th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Dido, I don’t like the tone of your questions to Lance. What difference does it make whether he is a “Christian” or not? Will you respond to him differently if he said he was? Perhaps you are just curious - but I can feel some barbs attached to your questions…..
Frankly I am sick of “Christians” wanting to attack people who are gay without first trying to understand their situation…