hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
November 16th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
I’ve ‘virtually’ been to Hill$ong if you like…..studied many hours of video from the services..and have been to churches that run on exactly the same format.
I’ve toyed many times with hopping on a plane and going over there…just to confirm what everybody has already said..and what I’ve already seen on the video….and I may still do that….even though I think it’s fairly pointless.
Just like when I was embroiled in debate on Phil Baker’s blog about Revenue Church..and people were say..’oh…come on…you haven’t been there for awhile..it’s really changed now’….and I went back to Revenue, and sure enough it hadn’t changed one bit.
Look, I’ve read all the blogs of the 20-somef’ns who think Hill$ong worship is the ants pants .. and how great it is to mosh to Hill$ong United…and how some of them even REALLY got to meet Phil Dooley…and how they do great work in the community (even though they claim the credit for the real work that’s outsourced to other agencies like World Vision and Compassion)…
But I can tell you right now what would happen if I turned up at a Hill$ong service.
I’d walk in past some rostered welcomers who’d give me a half-’hi’ ..as they were turning their face to the herd of 20 people rushing in behind me.
(I may or may not get a piece of paper thrust into my hands by a welcomer.)
I’d look around the foyer and say…’gee..this is so 90’s corporate’…as I get accidentally elbowed by an usher who’s rushing around…making sure the lightweight nature of the congregation hasn’t loosened the cables preventing the church from floating away and endangering aircraft………….and bumped by a musician who’s realised at the last minute ..she’ll have to wait another two hours before she gets another chance to have a piss.
I’d follow the crowd into a room where all the music was coming from.
A man in his 30’s or 40’s will half-block my path and say…’hi…welcome to Hill$ong…haven’t seen you ’round here before…are you visiting?’
‘Yes…just over from Perth for the weekend’.
‘Perth….that’s in Western Australia isn’t it?’
‘Yes’
‘Well..we have lots of overseas visitors at Hill$ong, so you might be interested in our backpackers’ ministry’.
(Smiley-guy wanders over to information desk…fossicks for Backpackers United brochure….I decide whether I can plan my escape or whether I have to wait until he’s asked three different people where the brochure that I don’t want or need..is…bugger..he’s found it and he’s walking back over..)
‘Here you go Wayne..’
‘Lance’
‘Oh…Lance, yes, sorry, I hope you have a blessed time in God’s House today.’
Then I find a seat up the back …so I can watch the ‘awesome’ service ….on a video screen..because Brian and the worship team just look like a small dot (’is that a dot or a bald spot’?) from where I’m sitting.
Then as the band fires up …I think….’uh oh….this isn’t like the radio where if a Hillsong comes on..I can just switch it over to a U2 mp3 for some real music. I’m stuck with listening to Hillsongs for possibly hours in one sitting.’
I look to one side of me..and the Hill$ong youth in the same row are doing their best to ignore my existence, while to my right…a woman in her 40’s gives a wide-eyed smile and a wave for no apparent reason.
Then the ‘awesome’ pastor Brian is introduced…..
Women begin fossicking randomly through their handbags for their purses and a pencil to take notes. Men unzip bibles and place them in their laps at a randomly opened page….and glancing occassionally at said page, to give the impression that they’re looking at the bible, when they’re actually dazzled by the pretty lights…and the fun bags poking out from the worship chick 2nd from the right.
I marvel at how bullshit can be spoken from a stage in so many different ways..from the worship leader….through the associate pastor, the youth pastor..and finally Brian, as they make their various announcements….(all about things that are awesome).
I spend all 45 minutes of Brian’s sermon ..thinking…’did he just say that?’
I muse how Hillsong music is the Stock, Aitken and Waterman formula music of the 2000’s….as I cannot tell one Hill$ong tune from the next (….allright…you try and tell the difference between http://youtube.com/watch?v=gnkZz2iZrk0..and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VufO6LidEA because I still can’t)
Then…after the show’s over, people get the hell out of there as fast as they can..as they’re emotionally spent after having their brains and their wills sucked dry.
I wander around thinking….’now what?’….and scrounge through the bookshop…looking for anything remotely non-heretical…and then walk back past the welcomers who are deep in conversation about the ‘awesome’ get together they’re planning at Gloria Jeans at Bondi…and I wander out into the fresh air thinking…’what the hell was that all about…..I came here for THAT…a clone of every other mindless penty service I’ve been to’?
So..no..I haven’t been to Hill$ong…and now you know why.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
“Then…after the show’s over, people get the hell out of there as fast as they can..as they’re emotionally spent after having their brains and their wills sucked dry.”
Funny… Just funny…
November 16th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
““He just calls us to be honest to ourselves, and to love others as much as possible.”
Don’t you think there is just a bit more involved in what God calls us to and to do?”
Yeah… I’m not that good at explaining myself. There’s a hell of a lot more to be involved in with what God calls us to and to do. However, there’s absolutely no point if you can’t be honest with yourself, and if you can’t love others.
For example, say you’re at a church, been there for a while, and lets imagine that you help with a youth ministry. Why would you bother if you can’t love others… and I’m not talking about just “loving” them, but really, truly, deeply, and most importantly, unconditionally loving them. There’s a lot of hurt teenagers out there, and calling them into church and trying to get them to conform is not loving them, but just giving them a natural set of rules and obligations and behaviours in order to feel part of the church.
Church isn’t God’s house.. we are. Getting people into church is pointless unless they’re there to seek God. Churches are so steeped in religious traditions that they miss the whole point. We only need to love each other. Would I give $50 to a church in the offering plate, or should I give it to a homeless man on the street? The bible clearly points out that we’re giving to Jesus when we give to homeless people, people who are down and out. Giving to a church is fine.. I don’t see a huge problem with that, but considering a church isn’t God’s house, and your where your treasure is, that’s where your heart is also, then why should you give to help keep a building maintained? Just love people and God and the rest will fall into place. We don’t need more churches, we need more love.
And why would you be in ministry if you’re not honest with yourself? If you think you’re being a good Christian because you show up every week with your family, you don’t swear, you don’t smoke, you give to the poor etc.. what does it matter if you’re doing it in order to be doing what’s right according to the church.
If you show up every week, why the hell aren’t you going on holidays with your family? If you don’t swear, then how come words like “shoot”, and “freak”, and “flip” are ok? If you don’t smoke, then how come it’s ok to eat fast food, or drive? If you give to the poor, would it matter if anyone found out?
The most important thing behind love is being honest with yourself and God. God can’t move in you if your reward is recognition in a church, or by other people. It’d be better if you didn’t help anyone but truly knew God’s love than to do everything a Christian is “supposed” to do and be.
Hmmm.. that’s a big answer for a relatively small question.. Sorry! I hope you don’t mind that I kept bringing everything back to churches in general.
Oh, and Lance… I “flipping” loved your story… I seriously felt like I was there!
November 16th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Voodoo faith is alive and well and Brian $ leads the band with the other 22 church leaders calling for the churches to pray for rain on 26 Nov.
http://www.ncca.org.au/media_releases/061115_church_leaders_promote_national_day_of_prayer_in_time_of_drought
So watch for the low to move from Cambodia to Colac on the 26th,and a second from Bolivia to benalla, followed by a third from Mumbai to melbourne.
Will God know not to send cyclonic rains to the Eyre Penninsula(where harvesting is in full swing) or to Qld banana plantations(how will Brian and the bishops explain to their followers another month of 13 buck bananas)?
Oh and by the way God we prayed for rain in 2005 - what happened?
And finally God forgive us,we havent prayed for rain for Sudan,Mali, or Chad, but hope you understand we are here and they’re over there - forgive us!
God forgive us.
November 16th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Lance, save your money…you’ve got it exactly except you missed out the welcome lounge, where you fill out the caard and have a short patoral interview to see if you are worth bothering with.
November 16th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
Re the rain….I’m not so sure i believe in an interventionist God/god these days.
Any thoughts?
November 17th, 2006 at 9:07 am
Neil, just help you on the journey of belief/unbelief in an interventionist god.
For how the church leaders arrived at a national day of prayer is just as disturbing as the pagan rite itself.
In July 2005 the “Nat Council of churches in Aus” + “Evangelical Alliance” + a one person operation “the Australian Prayer network” called for 40 days of rain prayers.That obviously failed.
In Oct 2006, Fred Nile(Christian Democratic Party)called for a National day of prayer on 26/11 to conclude on 27/11 at 9.am coinciding with National Prayer Breakfast(Parliament House Canberra).
At about the same time the one man so called Aust Prayer Network called on churches etc from 22/10-30/11, “to enquire of God as to why there is the worst drought in 100 years”.
On Nov 2 the Qld premier urged people to get behind the Qld churches day of prayer on 26.
Brian $$ and the rest of the church leaders concerned not to be left behind then decided to set up their own hotline to God.
And by the way some 1.1 billion people(a sixth of the world’s pop) do not have access to safe water, and 300 children will die in the next hour because of unsafe drining water!
But I guess as long as God delivers that series of lows from Gambia,Cambodia and Cuba to Onslow,Oodandatta and Ouyen, then we’ll know god answers prayer, and you’ll not have to worry anymore Neil!
November 17th, 2006 at 9:30 am
Lance Says:
November 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
One of the reasons I posted the criticism of Signposts here ..is …can you imagine someone from Hill$ong freely and publicly raising criticism of Hill$ong …at Hill$ong?
Lance Says:
November 16th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
I’ve ‘virtually’ been to Hill$ong if you like…..
Wow, the omniscient Lance. That is incredibly arrogant of you to think you know everything about a church you’ve never been to! I’ve been reading your comments thinking that you must be speaking from a working knowledge of the church - all your opinions on how exactly Hillsong people would respond to homosexuality, criticism etc - and you’ve never even been there let alone belonged to the congregation!
Watching the videos, reading the books, even going to a couple of services - are all entirely different to being a member of a church. Entirely different and please don’t insult our intelligence by trying to pretend otherwise.
Sanders Says:
I haven’t been on a killing rampage in Iraq so I guess I can’t make moral judgements about that activity.
Don’t be dramatic please, you can feel free to make your own moral judgements on anything you like. The thing you can’t do is tell people exactly what you think is that going on there, if you’ve never been there. I don’t like whats going on in Iraq from what I see from my point of view, but I would never presume that I know everything that’s going on over there, or that I know more about someone who is intimately involved and is actually on the ground there!
November 17th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
A patoral interview is that where they patorla you down to check for more money?
November 17th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
patoral you down to check for more money?
November 17th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
I love it when some one makes a typo commenting on someone elses typo….
November 17th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
it is kinda funny - I had a groan when i read it
November 17th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Very good stumpy, very clever…
Neil - God is alive & well and intervening in all sorts of ways.
He won’t necessarily send rain, but there will be some testimonies of people who have been met by God in some way or another through all of this.
He’s still got His hand on the tiller…
November 17th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
How much does God intervene in this world? Would make for a good separate thread. What do you think Phil/Dan?
November 17th, 2006 at 1:35 pm
Yep, coming up.
November 18th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
This is just too bizarre.
http://www.pentecostalsofperth.com/Media.html
Click ‘play’ on the quicktime links on the left of the page.
It’s kind of them to give us a warning about the standard of their sermons.
November 18th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Signposts quiz time.
10 bonus points go to whoever can name the man in the middle of this picture.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4036/1532/1600/P1010029.jpg
Clue: this quiz question is posted in the thread, ‘Hillsongs the next installment’
November 18th, 2006 at 8:55 pm
“10 bonus points go to whoever can name the man in the middle of this picture.”
I want to play but the link won’t work!!!!
November 18th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Lance…you know it’s “Can I autograph your Bible for you”…JH
November 18th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Ohh….’Jane’…….try it here..
http://sirharryboy.blogspot.com/2006/11/big-weekend.html
Top photo…guy in the middle….
Clue: most likely to inherit the ‘family business’.
November 19th, 2006 at 6:39 am
I don’t get why people idolize and act like these folks on stage at H$ are celebrities? That’s kind of lame actually. People travelling not to worship God in a congregation, but to see some praise band.. or singer. I don’t get it? What am I missing?
It’s actually really sad. I’m embarassed for some of these people. I thought Christianity was all about Jesus as a focal point of spirituality and life?
I also think shame on those “celebrities” that perpetuate this sort of thing. Do any of them ever get up and say, “Quit this mentality, this has zero to do with personalities and our attempt at being trendy and ”relevant”, the actual focus of this should be grace of God”… or are the egos over there just lapping up the adoration and all the material benefits of that?
I used to think it was slightly humorous, now.. just tragic really.
November 19th, 2006 at 11:53 am
Anais I agree totally. Even at Hillsong I hated Christian celebrity culture.
Now is Geoff Bullock still here? I wanted his autograph.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Anais = you’re a celebrity, weren’t you and Saphira even mentioned in the Bible????
November 19th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
He’s still got His hand on the tiller…
That may be so - but who’s got their hand in the till? Sorry - too good to let go by without a comment! I know you don’t want Signposts to turn into a comedy club Dan, but there you go.
November 19th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
Yeah, we don’t want to turn RAC insto a comedy club do we.
BTW,
Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?
A. Because he wanted to read the ‘Signposts’ ! …
November 19th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Oops that should be signposts nor R AC
November 19th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Well Anais,
Darlene occasionally says she is uncomfortable with the celebrity side of things but I don’t get the feeling she really believes that.
As for all the young guys like JH and Marty etc they love it and lap it up…It is more about picking up women for them from what I could tell.
November 19th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
And yet they have both been staunchly single Neil…
November 19th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
On a brighter note - Tom th ewierdo and katie were married in an Italian Castle this weekend… I’m so happy!!!
November 20th, 2006 at 2:20 am
>>>”Darlene occasionally says she is uncomfortable with the celebrity side of things but I don’t get the feeling she really believes that.”