hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
November 20th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
“No, you misunderstand me, and maybe I’m not making myself clear.”
No, you’re being perfectly clear.
You want Christians to lie, and pretend that nobody has any problem with what anybody is doing, and therefore, as a whole…you want the Christian community to lie to the outside world about what really goes on.
I can’t lie any longer.
I can’t tell people to go to church when I know their head is going to be messed with.
You might be able to still do that.
I can’t do that. ”
I’d have to agree with you there, Lance. I know this is the Hillsong thread, but I’m going to use CCC as an example.
There is far too much hypocrisy. When I was working there I earned very little money. I came to find out how much the pastor’s directly above me were earning and I was disgusted. I wasn’t disgusted because they were earning a large salary.. or even a decent salary! Rather, they were earning a very very small salary!
The reason I bring this up is because they were also given Ford XR6’s as a company car. Frankly, it makes absolutely no sense to me, considering that the cars are worth more than their salaries. It makes me think that they’re trying to portray a sense of success, and richly blessed by God, but that’s bullshit.
How about stop trying to pretend that everyone who works at the church is a shining example of what being a Christian is supposed to be? How about pay them a decent wage rather than giving them an expensive car?
I used to love CCC, and I use to love it when I went to different Hillsong events. But now I’m so upset at the hypocrisy (especially with money, but also with a lot of other things) that I can’t even drive past the building without becoming angry.
However Lance, I have kept my opinions to myself within the CCC community. I still see a fair amount of them quite often (at Gloria Jeans.. surprise surprise) and I don’t want them to come to the same conclusion that I have come to because of what I say. If someone has a problem with a church, it’s a problem they should sort out with God and themselves… Not by getting everyone to be against the said church.
One of my close friends became a Christian at Hillsong about 2 years ago. Even though I can’t stand the church, I know that it has helped him get to know God immensely and so I would never belittle the church in front of him. It’s where he has found God, and I’m happy for that.
No one’s ever going to be 100% happy with any church because the church is made up of imperfect people… but don’t try and change people’s opinions… I mean, if God truly exists, then surely he’s looking out for the innocent people that have been caught up in this “cult”… yes?
November 20th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Thanks for your post emanresu. I think that is a very amture perspective.
I too tire of those here who just like to whip up little personal frenzies of hate. Who cares if your points are correct? If you’ve lost the genuine spirit of Jesus in what you say, you’ve lost the point…
November 20th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Ps. that typo is ‘mature’ not ‘amateur’, as funny as that would be.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Re #1068…Sorry Dan.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
No more comments re Hill$ong from me except when I report from the conference next year. Too many johnny come lately’s want to defend those mongrels!
November 20th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
Yellow Journalism seems to keep people interested in the blog, and seems to be a major force that keeps some people harping on the same old same old. The people that have the most reason to say anything negative about about HS (with exception to Neil) have made their statements and you don’t hear Singer, Jane and Geoff continually harping (probably too painful). Lionfish seems to comment on the theology and lack of transperancy, which really is fair game. But things like Marty and Joel just want the popularity to get chicks stuff is a bit yellow.
So, What is the point about “Hillsong - the next installment” - maybe it’s time to give this roll a nice rest and a real nice funeral.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
Now, anybody heard the latest on Ted Haggard???
November 21st, 2006 at 8:16 am
re: post 1081….
very well said.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:04 am
What a weak excuse for remaining silent - you might as well say let’s not fight for workers rights - if God exists he’ll look out for the innocent people who have been caught up inthis unfair piece of legislation.
Many people before you have used the ‘If it’s of God it’ll succeed and if it’s not it’ll fall’ line and this malarky is simply another version of that crap.
Well said my arse
November 21st, 2006 at 11:13 am
Fair enough point, Greg, and I completely understand what you’re saying. You’re right.. we can’t take on the attitude that things that succeed are of God and things that fail are not of him. That’s just stupid to think of it what way.. that’s how people get tripped up. They start to wonder how people like Paris Hilton have it all going for them, while they try their hardest to please God and get the life they feel they deserve.
However, I think you were taking me out of context. I said innocent people (don’t get started on the “we’re not innocent” debate) who have been caught up. God knows people’s hearts, and he knows their intentions. I do not wish to blast someone for something they were doing to get closer to God.
If you think that going around and blasting Hillsong is the Godly thing to do, then by all means do it. You’re doing what you think is right… so just do it! Tell the people at Hillsong that they’re wasting their money, their being ripped off, they’re worshipping Marty and Brian and Darlene rather than God… Go up to the new converts and tell them that the new feeling of being accepted and loved is actually just bullshit… That’s right.. don’t remain silent, God sure as hell isn’t going to do it.
Or, you can sit back, relax, get to know God more, pray for Hillsong and the people there… because if you’re right then you’ve got the bible on your side where God says that vengeance is his. If you try and take it down then people will just see you and bitter and twisted, rather than concerned, which is what I think you actually are.
November 21st, 2006 at 11:17 am
Just to clarify… I meant that I think you’re concerned for the people who are caught up at Hillsong, rather than I think you’re bitter and twisted.
November 21st, 2006 at 11:22 am
There is a big difference between expressing opinions about the Godliness (or lack of) of a church like Hillsong on a blog and actually going there and telling people to their faces what you actually think (alot who have good intentions and are Godly themselves). One of the great things about a blog site is that you can air opinions - even if they are completely heretical - and then enter into dialogue. If people have misgivings about Hillsong, surely this is the safest and most appropriate place to air them.
Please don’t shut down people’s voices. Everyone needs a voice - particularly those who have had theirs shut down and been hurt in the process. I’m sure the people Jesus hung out with had quite a few grievances that they shared with Him. Somehow I don’t think he told them to shut up and just be “loving”……
November 21st, 2006 at 12:28 pm
I don;t think people conciousoy enter into the worship of Marty and Darlene and Joel and Brian and Bobby (I’m looking for twelve names - but I’m done). I agree that H$ is full to the brim with people who love God and want to serve God - I also think that Brian and Marty and Bobbie et al love God and want to service God.
The way they are going about it is abusive and manipulative.
I will never thionk it is ok to just sit back and say nothing - why doesn;t HS just sit back and say nothing? If GOd want people there he’ll bring em in - but no they have conferences, books, cd’s speaking engagements, dodgy theology, dodgy financial management and in the end it isn;t Brian and BObie paying for their own lifestyle - you and the thousands of HS devotees are paying for their lifestyle - are you happy with that?
November 21st, 2006 at 12:29 pm
BTW - I am bitter and twisted
November 21st, 2006 at 2:06 pm
What’s your background Greg? You burnt too? Do you have detox suggestions?
November 21st, 2006 at 2:16 pm
I used to worship at Northern Beaches Christian Centre, but worked with Teen Challenge (big H$ support and medling there I can tell you) so I came out of te pente/charismatic style and moved to the Anglincan tradition. I am moving away from that traditoin these days although In still; worship in and lead an Anglican Community (that is more emergent than Anglican). I haven’t been burnt by H$ or CCC, I was burnt by TC which owes much of it’s theology and practice to TC - but I’m well and truly over that.
Detox suggestion - time and hope and not letting go of the belief that there are other Chritians out there who think the same as you do. Talking openly and reading Brian Mclaren/Spong/Frost and Hirsch/
November 21st, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Thanks mate. Fundamentalists hiss a the name of Spong like vampires hiss at garlic….I’ve read some of his stuff and it’s another world from my rearing…
November 21st, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Other worlds often aren’t nearly as scarey or prickly or unsafe as everyone says they are when you check them out for yourself…..
November 21st, 2006 at 2:36 pm
entirely another world and when I was attending Northern Beaches Christian Centre I though he was the anti-christ - a total heretic and someone to be avoided at all costs - and I’d never read a word he’d written.
When I had a crisis in my faith and I left the church the only way I could come back to church with any integrity was after reading Spongs works Why Christianity must change or die and Here I stand. By following the links you can actually have a bit of a browse through the books (I love this ability at Amazon.com).
I don;t think that Spong has it all right either - he discounts the mystical aspects of Christianity a little too easily - but he is right on the money with most of what he says.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Why Christianity Must Change or Die
November 21st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Agreed. I find some of Spong’s work complete crap, some of it intentionally provocative and some of it really good. I have heard him speak and was impressed by him and not at all scandalised. A lot of “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” concerns basic exegetical practice with some controversial examples thrown in.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:19 pm
I consider Frost Hirsch and Mcalren to be by far the most important writers I ahve read in some time (on faith subjects that is)
November 21st, 2006 at 8:31 pm
I’ve been doing some decent reading on this website this afternoon (boring day at work.. don’t ask, not that anyone will). I’ve come to the conclusion that doctrine is pretty damn important, and so those who preach wrong doctrine need to be exposed.
However, I still think that it’s not up to me to do it. I know I’m fairly new to the site as a poster (longtime reader though) so I’d like to ask a few questions.
1. If someone you care for was going to Hillsong or Riverview, or CCC.. whatever, what would you say to them?
2. If someone got saved at the above churches, what would you say to them?
3. If these churches had less than 500 members, would it change your opinion of them?
4. Do you see anything positive in these churches?
November 21st, 2006 at 9:06 pm
“1. If someone you care for was going to Hillsong or Riverview, or CCC.. whatever, what would you say to them?”
Nothing in particular. Once inside the cult they won’t hear of any criticism. So two things need to happen. There needs to be outside accountability, through law enforcement and oversight from the rest of the church ..to make sure nothing illegal or unethical is happening. (Neither of that is happening at the moment.) And secondly, at some point ..something needs to twig inside that all is not right. History tells us…it’s the cult member’s own realisation that something is amiss ..that starts their journey out of the cult.
Us telling them it’s a cult will be ignored in the short term…but when the ‘twig’ moment happens…what we have said at places like Signposts about it being a cult should make it easier to leap out of the cult at the point of departure…though their ears are closed to the facts now.
“2. If someone got saved at the above churches, what would you say to them?
Same as above. It would be like explaining to them the view from Centrepoint Tower when they’ve never been out of Goulburn. Feel free to be critical of the cult…but not directly to them..unless they ask for your opinion. That’s why I don’t meet with Revenue cult members or Phil Baker, because you’ll be ignored while their lives are so intertwined with the cult.”
“3. If these churches had less than 500 members, would it change your opinion of them?”
Not at all. Potter’s House cults are generally smaller, but probably even more dangerous in the control they try and exert over people’s lives.
“4. Do you see anything positive in these churches?”
I think they’ve helped re-energise the church as a whole….
I think they’ve helped bring the church ..as a whole…out of the 1950’s and 1970’s into the 1980’s… (still a way to go until 2006….they haven’t figured out yet that ‘greed is good’ was actually a parody of 1980’s thinking…and that it’s now 2006..and that Bono is the Christian who’s connecting with the masses…not Rebecca St. James…or dare I say it…Hill$ong United.)…so they’ve closed some of the time warp between the church culture and the society culture of the time…(it’s only 25 years difference now..compared with a 19th century culture in the church of the 1950’s).
(tap..tap..tap..I’m struggling to think of a 3rd)……
I think that by creating the concept of the ‘celebrity pastor’….they’ve helped pave the way for preachers who are a little more closer to a traditional evangelical belief system…like Rick Warren… to get their head on CNN….
(Ummmm…..starting to clutch at straws here…)
There are a lot of stupid people in the community..and they’ve created a place where stupid people can really feel that they belong..and not be isolated in the community….If, like myself, you’re a stupid person in a new city and know nobody…they’re easy to connect into…(though they try and make you more stupid..not more smart)…
(Nope….somebody’s going to have to help me out here.)
November 21st, 2006 at 11:41 pm
*stunned*
Lance…you were…reasonable….
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:41 am
FWIW here are my answers
1. Nothing much. I would be honest that I disagree with the theology of these places and would try to tease out some of their thinking on issues, but ultimately people can choose to worship where they feel comfortable and fed. If I was a friend and I actually felt that this person was becoming less christian as a result of being a part of it, then I would tell them that was what I thought.
2. Congratulations, that is great news. For more see number 1.
3. Yes I think it would, because one of my main concerns about mega churches is the amount of unanalysed and unaccountable influence that they have over the rest of christendom and the way that a lot of struggling churches see that numbers and size automatically equal success. Most churches wouldn’t be uncritically implementing on a wholesale basis the theology, model and ideals of a church of less than 500 people. In terms of my concerns for the members of the church, then it wouldn’t make any difference.
4. Absolutely. I see a re-emphasis on the idea that church actually needs to be something that people want to connect with - ie the death of the assumption that people will be a part of a faith community simply because they should. This has led to higher standards of preaching (in the sense of presentation), excellence in performance and worship and the burgeoning of a whole bunch of creativity. All of these have shadow sides, but we are not talking about that. I think that it has rebutted the example that seems so common in some churches that we need to be ashamed of or apologise for faith, whilst not americanising the expression of that faith.
And, where things are good and accountable, it has shown the enormous potential that large churches have to make a difference. I would consider that Careforce in Mt Evelyn is a good example of this. I might not agree with the focus of everythin they do, but they certainly make a huge impact.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:15 am
Oops, yes, I forgot to mention they introduced the much-needed ‘come to church and win a car’ concept to the Kingdom of God.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:44 am
You people have been making fun of Benny Hinn. Shame on you, what did he ever do to hurt anybody. I was just watchig a re-run od his and I have to tell you, he is quite funny. running around chasing all those voluptuous young english girls at high speed … and the little bald man with him was funny too. You people should get a life!!!!
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:40 pm
Oops, yes, I forgot to mention they introduced the much-needed ‘come to church and win a car’ concept to the Kingdom of God.
But I think you will find that I was talking about the positive things that they do and about Careforce particularly.
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:14 pm
To Foundation and others wondering what people are hoping to achieve by posting here.
I recently watched the Kennedy Miller TV doco-drama ‘The Dismissal’, concerning the events leading up to and including, the sacking of the Whitlam government in 1975.
When the series was made in 1982 (I think it was shown on TV just after the 1983 election) it was regarded as a courageous production, considering many of the people depicted in the series were still very much in the public eye and many Australians were still fuming over Whitlam’s dismissal.
The opening narration to Part 1 of the series recognizes the bitterness some Australians were feeling years after Nov 11 1975 and explains the reason for making the series, at the risk of opening old wounds…
“… But I want to tell you about our country, and some things that happened then that nearly tore us apart. This isn’t going to be easy. It’s still there in our memory. For many Australians, bitterness is never far away. But maybe now we can understand, and to understand is to forgive.”
I’m not bitter, but the last line rings true for me.
I think the church as a whole needs to gain a better understanding of what has happened and is happening to some people as a result of their church involvement…so these people can be restored in their faith and forgiveness can flow both ways. I’m not just talking about ‘a bad experience’, I’m talking about people who have been exposed to, in some cases, years of spiritual abuse only to lose everything, convinced at the time it was all their fault….and yes, some of it was.
If the church really stands for truth, then it cannot stand idly by while people’s lives are being destroyed by some christian leaders.
Fortunately, some sections of the church are just beginning to understand the dangers. Lets hope the rest catch up quickly, to stop this sort of abuse from happening again in the christian church.
BTW Greg,
Re: “speaking of innuendo, anyone had a colonosopy lately?”
Well, no…but I hear an italian suppository works just as well!