hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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April 14th, 2006 at 9:47 am
What if Lance is the voice of prophetic lament, calling us to examine the middle class values that have captivated the church, and made many feel it is a place of judgment and not of grace? I don’t think Hillsong is alone in confusing faithfulness to Jesus with conformity to the Western llifestyle dream.
Can someone teach Charli to pre-program her VCR? Joyce Meyer is the Christian queen of the punchy one-liner… but I wouldn’t be setting my alarm clock.
There isn’t really a Christian mattress is there? I’ve seen so much junk in Word I just can’t be sure any more.
April 14th, 2006 at 10:09 am
I agree Janet, Lance… you should rename yourself Jeremiah. Maybe you could start a comedy tour of Churches across the nation? the comedic prophet.. sinking the boot..
April 14th, 2006 at 11:17 am
I got up early and watched Kenneth Copeland.
The entire show was him and another ‘borther’ sitting actoss a table in a ‘all american ranch style country kitchen’ setting blowing smoke up each others butts … I am not kidding the whole conversation was on money and sowing and reaping and people buying Oral Roberts a house … the whole show.
These guys speak with all the ‘right’ words “apostle”, “brother”, “revlation”, “the blood”, “you will reap a harvest” … they speak in simpletons language, extremely animated, arams waving… but waht got me was a seemingly put on ‘negro accent’ … sentences like “all them years back”.
Hucksters.
April 14th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
All this talk of Hillsong is very good and well but where are the ex-CCC people?
I am an ex CCC staff member and Lance that Parliment cut ‘n paste post re CCC Canberra does not suprise me in the least.
I personally know of people who previously attended CCC churches and committed big dollars to the annual ‘Rise and Build’ fund.
They paid a portion of the fund but after leaving the movement were sent an invoice for the remainder of the amount.
This is blatant disregard for the people of God and Phil Pringle has no qualms about it whatsoever, the man is an arrogant egotistical money hungry wolf and I know this from personal experience and contact.
I am not suprised in the least that Pat Mesiti has gone the way he has, if he is under the leadership (actually more like dictatorship) of Phil Pringle he is simply emulating the values of the man and his movement.
Phil Pringle preaches ‘Another Jesus’, has ‘Another spirit’ and preaches ‘Another gospel’ (2 Corinthians 11.4).
Even though Jesus Christ told Pontius Pilate that his kingdom was ‘Not of this world’ (John 18.36), Phil Pringle, Brian Houston, Kenneth Copeland and every other money hungry false prophet INSIST upon setting up a physical kingdom for God in the here and now.
They have the arrogance to declare that their man made structures are ‘The house of God’.
People get so sucked into this that they forget to actually read their bibles. Where is the house of God now?
“Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?”
1 Corinthians 6.19
“The God who made the world and all things in it, this One being Lord of Heaven and of earth, does not dwell in handmade temples, nor is served by hands of men, as having need of anything. For He is giving life and breath and all things to all” Acts 17.24-25
God has warned us of this clearly in his word of deception -
“But beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inside they are plundering wolves” Matthew 7.15
“And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err. And because lawlessness shall have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold” Matthew 24.11
“For we are not as the majority, who are peddling the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God in Christ, are we speaking” 2 Corinthians 2.17
The word translated ‘Peddling’ here is a Greek word Kapeleuo and means to retail, merchandise and make money by selling.
Paul says in the above scripture that the ‘majority’ are doing these things!This is the sad state of today’s Christian church - they are retailing, merchandising and corrupting the Gospel and the things of God!
“Who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit (a money making business, a means of livelihood). From such withdraw” 1 Timothy 6.5
“But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies”
2 Peter 2 1.3
“Yet wicked men and swindlers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived” 2 Timothy 3.13
I hope this helps many of you to see what is really going on at these mega churches.
I see a lot of frustation and venting on these posts but at some point we need to move beyond this and see the real reason for why this is all happening.
Bringing an evil report of our brothers to our father because of the way they are treating the flock PRECEDES us being given a coat of many colours -
“These are the generations of Jacob: Joseph, a son of seventeen years, was feeding the flock with his brothers, with Bilhah’s sons and with Zilpah’s sons, his father’s wives. And he was a youth. And Joseph brought an evil report of them to their father”
I highly recommend these two sites - http://www.bibletruths.com and
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com
God bless you all on your search for truth!
WIGGY
ezekiel3verse4thru7@hotmail.com
April 14th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
“All this talk of Hillsong is very good and well but where are the ex-CCC people?
I am an ex CCC staff member and Lance that Parliment cut ‘n paste post re CCC Canberra does not suprise me in the least.
I personally know of people who previously attended CCC churches and committed big dollars to the annual ‘Rise and Build’ fund.
They paid a portion of the fund but after leaving the movement were sent an invoice for the remainder of the amount.”
I’d be very interested to see what Departments of Fair Trading would have to say about that approach.
On the surface, it looks like people are being solicited for a donation, but are unwittingly being signed-up into an enforceable contract, which, on the face of it, is deceptive and fraudulent conduct and therefore illegal.
A copy of one of those invoices would be interesting to see.
Glad to have you here Wiggy, because after examining the teachings of Hillsong and the CCC teachings, I now have the greater concern about CCC…(although Hillsong is still dodgy).
The $70,400 question ($64,000 + 10%) I have …is who takes their cue from whom?
I’m not so convinced anymore than churches are taking their theological cue from Hillsong.
Hillsong very much influences the worship doctrines of churches throughout Australia…but the prosperity doctrine seems to come from Phil Pringle……not Hillsong.
For example…Phil Baker’s Revenue Church in Perth is an exact duplicate of CCC….right down to the ‘turn to the person next to you and tell them they look like Posh Spice’ routine…..and I finally realised where Baker gets all of his theology and unoriginal service ideas from…
But from those in the know…..those who’ve been in the CCC-Hillsong system…I’d be very interested to know whether Houston looks to Pringle..or Pringle looks to Houston for guidance.
Who’s the ‘big cheese’ of the two?
April 14th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
And just a disclosure …since you’re probably new here…….
I’m a journalist by trade….so anything you say here may (or may not) one day end up on the radio…..although, the way things are going, and the rate that information is coming in…it’s more likely to end up in tell-all book form.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Thanks for the reply Lance.
I’ve been reading here for a while but for whatever reason have not submitted any comment or bothered to register.
I definately agree that Pringle (actually Dr Pringle - he has a doctorate in theology even though he cannot seem understand a thing in his bible).
is the leader in the financial deception game.
Material wealth is an idol of Pringle’s heart that he will not give up and the reason that he continues to pull these vague sounding scriptures out and then elaborate on how God needs our money is simple -
“Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel (The church, spiritual Israel) that setteth up his idols in his heart (materiel wealth, prosperity doctrine etc), and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet (the word of God, the bible); I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols (I’ll tell them what they want to and expect to hear)”
Ezekiel 14.4 - Caps are my comments.
I used to be SO ANGRY at all the injustice that went on at that place, especially when I worked there.
At one staff meeting, Phil gets up and says that he’s keeping a close eye on all the ‘Rise and Build’ commitments from his staff and if anyone thinks that they can just give $1000 we’ll that’s really just a bit weak and not nearly good enough! The arrogance of the man is unbelievable…
Many of the financial accounts people tried again and again with me to allow them to withdraw the tithe from my paypacket.
This would mean that in addition to the tax being taken out CCC would then scoop another 10% off the top.
They actually still owe me superannuation but I am allowing room for the vengance of God in that matter.
The culture of the movement is very much a bully culture.
If you don’t bow and srape to the ideals of the movement and ’sell out the house’ then they’ll just disown you in a flash.
They pay their staff appalingly and expect every last drop of sweat from them.
Geoff Bullock if you are reading this I really feel for the way Jeff Crabtree treated you.
I had a friend who worked in his department and when the whole thing with you and HS happened I believe you sent him a letter saying you hoped you could still be friends?
Jeff tore the letter up on the spot and thought nothing of it.
I only say this to show you what kind of spirit is operating in the culture of CCC - It is not the spirit of Christ or one of love and forgiveness.
What about Pat Mesiti?
Funnily enough they have totally disowned anyone remotely involved in any sexual misconduct and sin.
But since Pat has a highly influential ‘testimony’ now and can generate some great ‘product’ for the movement he’s back in…
It’s one rule for the rich and famous and another for your average aussie punter.
Like the Pharisees in the day of Christ, Phil Pringle (like Brian Houston, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Phil Baker etc) is ‘of his father the devil’ -
Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth and have come from God; nor have I come from Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I say? Because you are unable to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father (stealing - read Lance’s post #31, killing, destroying) you desire to do” John 8.42-44
Who were the Pharisees?
THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH OF THE DAY.
Give that some thought!
April 14th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Wiggy… I didn’t know that. That’s sad. I was booked to speak at CCC creative arts college about three months after I left Hillsong. Jeff Crabtree, who has always been a gentleman to me, met me in their office and told me that Brian Houston had rung Phil Pringle and complained: “Why are you allowing Geoff Bullock to speak at your bible college when he speaks against everything we believe?” I remember these words as if they were yesterday. It was the last time I was invited there. Jeff and I spent our last afternoon together, and the students heard from someone else. Strangely enough, I was still speaking the same message that I had been for years before.
By the way:
Happy Easter Charli!!
I think Joyce is funny too!!
April 14th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
I woke today, Good Friday, to the tragedy and triumph of the cross.
The local bike club have their compound at the end of the street. They were preparing for a ‘run’ this weekend. Harley after Harley roared up the narrow street straddled by a heavily tattooed male, greying, balding and overweight. I thought of Jesus and his disciples and reflected how much more they were like these outlaws than those who were gathering in churches all around Maitland this morning.
Jerusalem must have been insulted by the triumphal entry, the Galileans must have looked so ‘working-class’, so rag tag Hicksville, so undesirable.
I thought of the politics of Herod, the Power of Pilate, the piety of Annas and all the promises and prophecies that must have moved through the Galileans as they camped on the Mount of Olives desperately praying that Jesus and his twelve rednecks would mount an insurrection against all the graft and corruption of Jerusalem.
Thank God for the bikies. I saw God in leather this morning, astride a Harley, the townsfolk turning their heads in disgust, shielding their young sons and daughters from the disease.
The cross is prepared. He is crucified today as he was yesterday and will be tomorrow as politics, power and piety demand God to submit.
Thank God for his stubborn refusal to be anything else but unconditional.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
that was beautiful Geoff, any chance for a song from this revelation?
the rev
April 14th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Wiggy… I didn’t know that. That’s sad
Sorry you didn’t know that Geoff, I only included that example as an illustration of how unsincere and plastic the leadership of CCC are.
The member of staff who witnessed that was shocked too, I remember him telling me with a confused look on his face.
It came up again recently in conversation because of the whole Pat Mesiti thing, He just couldn’t understand the logic of these people (shooting you down and giving Pat a hand up)
I have more stories on the ‘dead works’ and ’striving after the wind’ that goes on at CCC. Just as John in his gospel said that if everything Jesus did and said was written down the ‘whole world would not have room enough to contain it’ the same is true of the deception, lies and hurt caused by CCC.
Thankfully God is orchestrating all of this and is working everything to his own plan and purpose -
“According to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS (yes, even CCC and HS) after the counsel of his own will” Ephesians 1.11
April 14th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
He was numbered with the transgressors…
April 14th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Wiggy - thanks for joining us.
I hope Steve takes note.
This Easter weekend actually marks a year that I sensed that things were not ‘right’ in the Contemporary Church … and slid into the deepest depression that weekend - and thought I was going nuts.
It was the birth pangs of coming out of the ‘Matrix’. Anyone else have a similar experience ofr was it just me being Melancholy?
Anyhow Happy Easter People.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
It was the birth pangs of coming out of the ‘Matrix’. Anyone else have a similar experience ofr was it just me being Melancholy?
Good call Lionfish.
What you call the ‘Matrix’ is exactly what scripturally is referred to as ‘Babylon the whore’ and we are told to ‘come out of her’ -
“And I saw a woman seated on a scarlet beast that was all covered with blasphemous names…And on her forehead there was inscribed a name of mystery (with a secret, symbolic meaning); Babylon the great…She has become a resort and dwelling place for demons, dungeon haunted by every loathsome spirit…I then heard another voice saying, Come out of her, my people, so that you may not share in her sins, neither participate in her plagues” Revelation 17.3,5 + 18.3-4
Who is her?
‘Her’ is the wife of Jesus (the church) and ’she’ is a harlot and is full of half-truth and false doctrine.
Just as God spoke to Hosea and told him to marry a harlot and have children with her, Christ has done the same.
‘She’ serves a purpose - she births children and these children are the true church -
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness” Revelation 12.5
Note that the woman ‘flees into the wilderness’.
She is spiritual Israel (the church of today) and has fled into the wilderness.
She experiences the outward signs of God’s providence and manifestations but never actually crosses the Jordan river to take possesion of the promised land.
If I can help you understand this anymore Lionfish please email me - ezekiel3verse4thru7@hotmail.com
April 14th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
I was having an interesting talk with some teachers in the staffroom at my school yesterday… They were giving me all their thoughts on Hillsong, apparently how Brian and Bobby have matching Ferraris with the numberplates B1 and B2… funny, but very untrue.
It made me think… people outside the church have a concept that it isnt ok for Christians to have money at all, and that it should all be given away.
How much is too much? What is the limit you should spend on a house or car or investment property??
April 14th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Yep… I ve been depressed for ten years now. I have also been a Christian for ten years this August.. Sorry, let me correct that, Ive been depressed most of my life, and Ive been a Christian for ten years this august… I think Im still emerging from the Matrix, When i entered it, I thought that I was leaving it.. Turned out I had only swapped one matrix for another.. and then another…People used to say to me, “where is the joy?” I did my best to begin acting in faith, to present a squeaky clean image to the world… and I found it didnt work. Are all the disilusioned, depressed christians in the western world a result of the thirty or so years of relentless positivism that the majority of the church has embraced, totally ignoring reality?.. dont get me wrong, I affirm this as a valid act of faith, but ignoring darkness does not make it go away, afirming Gods faithfullness with a shout does not always remove a sense that he seems to be absent while people suffer. Is this why depressed people get their noses so out of joint with those who wear plastic smiles? Is this why Christians have lost their crediblity?
“We have thought ( read: had it shoved down our throats) that acknowledgment of negetivity was somehow an act of unfaith, as though the very speech about it conceded too much about God’s ” loss of control.”
“At least it is clear that a church that goes on singing “happy songs” in the face of raw reality is doing something very different from what the Bible itself does.”- Walter Brueggeman
i’ve heard it said, LF, that depression can be a sign in certain personalities that they are in touch with reality..
April 14th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
It made me think… people outside the church have a concept that it isnt ok for Christians to have money at all, and that it should all be given away.
Here’s the deal Will.
As far as scripture is concerned here are a few thoughts -
“Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth” Ephesians 4.28
We should have enough so that we can give to others in need.
Ministers have been given an example by Paul which many do NOT live by -Paul made tents for a living and did NOT extract tithes from anyone.
“For you yourselves know how it is right to act like us, because we were not disorderly among you; nor did we eat bread from anyone as a gift, but by labor and toil, working night and day in order not to burden anyone of you. Not that we do not have authority, but that we give ourselves as an example to you, for you to act like us.
For even when we were with you, we commanded this to you: If anyone does not desire to work, neither let him eat”
Contrary to what Brian Houston or Phil Pringle says, selling the things of God is not an acceptable way to earn a living (like writing a book on prayer or seeking God’s will for you life etc) -
“For we are not as the majority, who are peddling the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God in Christ, are we speaking” 2 Corinthians 2.17
The word translated ‘Peddling’ here is a Greek word Kapeleuo and means to retail, merchandise and make money by selling.
Ministers may live off the gospel but nowhere do we find the suggestion that they ‘live lavishly’ off the gospel -
“Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel” 1 Corinthians 9.14
Paul says however that he doesn’t do things that way in the following verse -
“But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void”
1 Corinthians 9.15
Hope this helps you Will.
WIGGY
April 14th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
“How much is too much?” A specific answer might not be helpful, esp if it becmoes a rule.
But anyone who is in Christ is part of a family stretching all over the world, and living a high-consumption lifestyle just doesn’t make sense when you have many brothers % sisters who have next to nothing. Wise investment, but high consumption is Christians is not something I like to see.
Especially so for any church leader, because they are an example to others. Particularly the prominent leaders we’ve been discussing here, with their offering sermons (which I’m pleased to say do not happen in most churches) - it is hypocritical to lead the high-life while exhorting a congregation to dig deep.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
That is very sad (re:story of Geoff and Jeff).
I believe CCC leads Hillsong in prosperity teaching.
I disagree with elements of Hillsong, but it seems to me that many of you are still being to extreme. Hillsong to me is not by any means the ideal church model, but I certainly shrink from calling it Babylon in the NT prophetic sense. Do you know how off base that is getting? To be disillusioned and embittered by the church is one thing, but to fall into a land of demons under every rock is ridiculous.
I would exert us to keep our heads on and our spiritual senses aware. God certainly supercedes Hillsong. And so does the wider church.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
HA!! Never really liked Christian City Church music anyway, it sounds so sloppy and the woman lead singer sounds like a man. It’s okay I guess..
I’m just really annoyed at what happened to Wiggy and Geoff. I wish the music was separated from Brian or Phil, ‘cuz its ruining the music for me!
CONTACT was a good cd from CCC but CCYouth sucks compared to Hillsong UNITED - a bazillion way better and more professional!
Mmm chocolate good… I wonder if Jesus would eat chocolate.. yum!
No offense to the serious serious christians.. c’mon we had a discussion with out youth pastor if Jesus you know..farted. Chocolate is a good subject!
Wiggy please post more “omg!” kinda stuff
April 14th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Hehe… Charli, Your posts are great…
April 14th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Hillsong to me is not by any means the ideal church model, but I certainly shrink from calling it Babylon in the NT prophetic sense. Do you know how off base that is getting?
Thanks for your thoughts Steve.
Here’s some for you.
How much heresy should we allow?
Is a little bit ok, maybe 1% or 2%… Is 10% ok?
Can half our doctrine be wrong and it’s still ok?
Really Steve - anything I have to say is worth nothing at all.
The mantra of historical orthodox christianiuty is ‘Say the sinners prayer, join a church and fellowship with other believers’.
Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non essentials is what is preached.
What does scripture actually say about this though?
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed” John 8.31
Only if we CONTINUE in the word of God are we truly his desciples Steve.
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds”
2 John 1.9-10
Is extracting a tithe from God’s people ‘abiding in the doctrine of Christ’ Steve?
Nowhere do we find tithing mentioned in the NT scriptures.
The only time Christ mentioned it was to rebuke the Pharisees - what does that tell you?
Is getting involved in politics and shaky deals ‘abiding in the doctrine of Christ’?
Please give me a scripture and verse that tells of Paul or any other apostle voting in the Roman senate or marching on Rome demanding legislation change.
I could go on and on Steve but before you shoot off at the mouth I suggest you ask yourself how much error you should allow into your life.
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”
Matthew 7.15-23.
By their fruits you shall know them Steve.
I think from being on this forum you can read about some of the fruit of these false prophets.
I welcome your comment Steve but your arguement is not with me but with scripture.
What exactly is Baylon the whore then and why is it called ’she’?
Do you think that scripture is there for no reason?
Maybe John’s revelation was just one big acid trip?
You tell me
WIGGY
April 14th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Where is the problem in voting for a Christian in politics? Its just voting for someone that represents your view… Thats what the whole voting thing is about. You vote for the person that most closely represents your values and ideals…
April 14th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
First of all Wiggy, you seem to think I stand for all that is Hillsong. I do not. Please read any of my above posts to see that I am not a defender of the Hillsonger position.
But I will answer your questions nevertheless.
How much heresy should we allow?
None. But I think it is naive to view the world in such black and white terms. You are not your brothers judge.
The mantra of historical orthodox christianiuty is ‘Say the sinners prayer, join a church and fellowship with other believers’.
I agree that this is the mantra of many. I was raised on this, but I rejected it not so long ago. Actually, I embraced your position, that we must CONTINUE in following Him. I agree with you.
Is extracting a tithe from God’s people ‘abiding in the doctrine of Christ’ Steve?
No.
Nowhere do we find tithing mentioned in the NT scriptures.
The only time Christ mentioned it was to rebuke the Pharisees - what does that tell you?
I think it is erroneous then to extrapolate that those who preach tithing are Pharisees, for Jesus was not rebuking them for teaching tithing, but for neglecting justice and mercy.
Is getting involved in politics and shaky deals ‘abiding in the doctrine of Christ’?
These activities in and of themselves are not.
Please give me a scripture and verse that tells of Paul or any other apostle voting in the Roman senate or marching on Rome demanding legislation change.
There are none.
I welcome your comment Steve but your arguement is not with me but with scripture.
I’m sorry, as I say above, I think you do not understand what I am saying. But fyi, to say to someone that their argument is not with you but with Scripture is akin to saying ‘my scriptural interpretation is flawless’. Certainly not a claim I’d want to make and rock up to judgement day with.
What exactly is Baylon the whore then and why is it called ’she’?
World system, quite likely to be ‘married’ to a church political body.
Do you think that scripture is there for no reason?
I don’t feel respected by that question.
Maybe John’s revelation was just one big acid trip?
Nor that one. But I doubt it was. Even if LSD existed back then, I doubt he had access to it on Patmos.
You tell me
Ok. Done.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
“Geoff Bullock if you are reading this I really feel for the way Jeff Crabtree treated you.”
This, I take it is the same Jeff Crabtree who’s one of the contributors at Phil Baker’s blog.
http://www.philbaker.net/about.php?p=2
“His day job is the Principal of the School of Creative Arts at Christian City Church, Oxford Falls, in Sydney. He has been in this position for the last 13 years, and has been a member of CCC for around 17 years. Prior to this position he was a professional musician and prior to that he was a high school English teacher.”
April 14th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Where is the problem in voting for a Christian in politics? Its just voting for someone that represents your view… Thats what the whole voting thing is about. You vote for the person that most closely represents your values and ideals
Hi again Will.
Good question - what is the problem?
The problem Will is that we are citizens of Heaven and as such do not need to get involved in the affairs of this world as Houston and Pringle teach.
“And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds” Ephesians 6.20
“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ” 2 Corinthians 5.20
We are ambassadors for Christ Will and his kingdom (which is not of this world - see John 18.36).
An ambassador to any country cannot involve himself in improving the country to which he is sent. That is not his concern.
We have an ambassador to Iran, If our ambassador to Iran gets involved in the politics of that country and starts demonstrating against the terrible condition of women and starts a campaign to improve the treatment of women in Iran, He would be immediately withdrawn from his ambassador’s position.
The reason he would be withdrawn is that he has taken upon himself a concern for things that conflict with his job as the ambassador for Australia. This man who we sent there to represent us and our concerns is now consumed with the concerns of Iran.
He has allowed his personal feelings for the welfare of the Iranian women to come between him and his true government.
Consequently he will not only loose his ambassadorship but he will also be prosecuted for treason. He has become and Iranian instead of an Australian citizen
WIGGY
April 14th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Lance
You are so full of your own self importance - you really dont give a stuff about anyone else but yourself
Your pathetic little world has been shattered - woopee
I came from an environment where my closest friends were druggies, rapists, bank robbers, drug pushers and extremely violent individuals.
I have been to jail many many many many times to visit - a lot more than you pretty boy.
I once took delight in putting people in hospital especially ignoramuses like yourself.
People I know have died of overdose.
I have helped druggies, solo mums, bank robbers, aboriginals, drunks etc.
I would put my christian works against you or anyone esle on this board.
In fact you would pee your pants if you were in the situatuins I have been involved.
So pretty boy be careful who you call names……….
Fortunately for society Christ saved my wretched soul and when I repented I actually gave up my life of crime.
So anytime you want to come to Hakea prison with me and see the meanest mugs in Perth you are welcome.
I suggest you stop feeling sorry for your pathetic life, stop blaming everyone else and become a problem solver not another burden.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
This, I take it is the same Jeff Crabtree who’s one of the contributors at Phil Baker’s blog.
Yep - one and the same Lance!
Hi Steve. Sorry if I misunderstood your position mate - not my intention!
Re this comment of yours -
But fyi, to say to someone that their argument is not with you but with Scripture is akin to saying ‘my scriptural interpretation is flawless’. Certainly not a claim I’d want to make and rock up to judgement day with.
Actually Steve that’s EXACTLY what we should say…
Here is something the apostle John wrote -
“We are of God; the one knowing God hears us. Whoever is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” 1 John 4.6
John said these words Steve - yes he was inspired by the holy spirit to do so but he said them nonetheless.
If you were one of John’s contemporaries would you level the same accusation at him? I think you probably would.
As for the Pharisees tithing Steve what did they tithe? 10% of their paypacket?
No - herbs buddy. Why is that? Because money was never a titheable resource.
Christ told these Pharisees that they were ‘of their father the devil’ (John 8.44)
You see Steve the seed of the serpent is always the rejected one of God.
Let’s see -
Cain is the seed of the serpent (of his father the devil) whilst Abel is of Christ.
Ishmael and Isaac, both sons of Abraham but one is of the flesh whilst the other is of the spirit.
Esau and Jacob, same scenario.
1st generation of Israel, 2nd generation of Israel.
Physical Israel, Spiritual Israel.
King Saul, King David.
Children of Leah, Children of Rachel.
Law of Moses, Law of the Spirit.
The Many called and the few chosen…
It’s just all through scripture Steve and it’s the same today.
There is a Christian religion and then there is the true church of God.
God bless
WIGGY
April 14th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
The same applies to every other whinging “christian” on this board.
Answer me this ” How many people have YOU visited in prison????”
Some of you should be ashamed of your hypocrisy- even my criminal mates have more courage than some of you
April 14th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
Urban Monk… I have had a constant battle with depression for most of my adult life… welcome my friend. Wish I had some answers, but, at the moment it seems more manageable, which is nice! My thoughts go out to you.