hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
December 12th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
I don’t care much where people go, just don’t give them any money. If we want to make Christ a part of Christmas give the money you would have given to churches to the street people before or after the show.
I’m not a fan of the Hillsong/Paradise/CCC shows, to me they’re nauseating, the hidden price is thirty pieces of silver for sure, but Powell sounds like he’s trying to cash in on the popular disgust and get a few more, “bums on seats” for his own brand of sacrilegious buffoonery.
“The gospel will be preached.” That’ll be novel. Just the once then?
In my town we have the inter-denominational Carols by toxic burning plastic cup fumes replete with Christian dancing girls, asphyxiated children and holy Christian fireworks and marked by thousands of Christian seagulls feasting on tons of Christian rubbish for at least 24 hours. Nice.
December 12th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Oh me! I’m holy too! Me too! I can pay out people!
December 13th, 2006 at 12:38 am
“The teachings of the bible do not sit comfortably with materialist or capitalist leanings, so it is perhaps surprising that new churches, like Hillsong, have found a way to bring wealth into the chapel. This church goes so far as to say people can become wealthier with God. Brian Houston, one of the founders, wrote a book called You Need More Money: Discovering God’s Amazing Financial Plan for Your Life.
A new industry has sprung up, of faith-based consultancies, chief financial and chief operating officers, and leaders with MBAs. One church even provides mortgage brokers and real estate agents.
Other religions have perspectives on materialism similar to the basic tenet of bible teachings. Greed, materialism and coveting what others have and you do not, are themes that many religions explore and warn against. Some go further with the Koran outlawing the basic capitalist idea of charging interest. This is an example of how religion fundamentally shapes the way business operates in many cultures.
This is not to say that religion and capitalism cannot peacefully co-exist. There is a long tradition of American companies working with local churches. For example, Maxwell House has for 68 years run a gift-with-purchase offer for a Passover Haggadah (a book that tells the story of the holiday in Hebrew and English) and distributes about 750,000 copies through grocery stores annually.
The difference now is that churches compete fiercely with one another for members, in the same way that companies compete in the market, and companies now work at a national or international level. As an example, in 2005 Disney offered pastors a chance to win a free trip to London and US$1,000 cash if they mentioned Disney’s Narnia film in their sermons. Pepsi provided a bus service for the elderly in exchange for one church’s bulk purchase of Pepsi. MasterCard offers more than 150 credit and debit cards tailored to specific religions or religious organisations around the globe.
For some, this is akin to “putting the [moneylenders’] tables back into the temple” and for others, it offers a potential new market.”
From http://www.marketingweb.co.za/marketing/518882.htm
December 13th, 2006 at 6:48 am
“but Powell sounds like he’s trying to cash in on the popular disgust ”
I’d have to disagree here. Whether you like his style or not, I give Powell credit in that he has walked a very lonely road in standing up to the AOG many years before signposts folks “came out”.
Cheers,
jane
December 13th, 2006 at 8:32 am
I’m still trying to work out what happened to the Contemporay Church.
I the 1970′2 the Contemporary Christian youth ideal was “keith Green” and the youth group looked and dressed liked Shaggy from Scooby Doo… and the ‘Jesus people’ were cool.
Thrity years later Richard Branson is held up as an “ideal”, people dress like Morrisey and have their hair styled at ‘House of Ernest’, and the young liberals are cool.
December 13th, 2006 at 8:33 am
“Whether you like his style or not, I give Powell credit in that he has walked a very lonely road in standing up to the AOG many years before signposts folks “came out”.”
I agree.
December 13th, 2006 at 8:50 am
I was wondering if you guys might talk me through something & make suggestions:
I have realised recently that my inheritance of Pentecostal thinking has never really left me. Although i was minded & had strong associations in an Anglican Church as child & participated in multi-denominational missionary work in my twenties, by far the strongest influience on the way i view faith & prayer has been dictated by CCC/Hillsong style “name it & Claim it / speak it into being / believe it & recieve it” theology. Ever since i joined CCC aged 21. I was always into positivity-thinking even before i became a Christian & i guess CCC was a ready-made culture-fit.
Even though i have tried to immerse myself in mainstream denominations & Emergents since coming out aged 24, i find that my prayer life is still geared towards saying to God “i know you will do this for me” rather than “please God, if it is your will”, the latter always feeling to me like it lacks faith, leaves too much to chance & that God will not reward my lack of positive resolve.
I so know this probably amounts to arrogance. But it’s so hard not to! Asking God to intervene in a situation instead of telling him what you want seems as useless as not praying at all. Does anyone else have this inheritance from their pentecostal associations?
The upshot is, i just don’t trust that i if i don’t speak about something like it is within my reach & given by demanding or claiming it it like it is already a fact, that it will occur. There is very little hunility to my Christianity, if any at all…
I’ve had to review recently though, that a number of things I’ve “claimed” through prayer, despite my belief they would come to pass, God has not processed for me. Things like an ongoing & life-limiting health problem, supply of a partner, protection of my elderly parents living in a housing estate, keeping pressures at bay at work…
I was very specific in my “claim” prayers (again worried that if i was not, that something i hadn’t considered would affect the big-pic negatively), but none of these prayers have been answered, or not in the positive anyway.
Now i’m feeling like i should abandon prayer life altogether, & take a Neitscke-esque survival-of-the-fittest philosophy on life, making things happen & taking complete credit for it. Plead-prayer seems so soft & useless.
I am so damaged & arrogant, but being one of life’s losers seems a worse fate. I don’t know whether this is pentecostalism or whether my attraction to pentecostalism was just an outworking of who i was anyway, but….
Can anyone relate to any of this?
I guess what you’re seeing here could be the legacy of prosperity “teaching” ten years on..
December 13th, 2006 at 8:55 am
I agree too
December 13th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Reve, I know exactly what you mean!
This is my whole thinking on the “Interventionist God Thread”
I don’t know what to believe or live any more…only that I am saved by Grace.
All I know now is love God and love people. I am not very good at either!
December 13th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Grace is such a beautiful, humbling word.
But this world wants me to be empowered if i am to be competent. And there is no power or competence in being a baby bird in a nest with it’s gob open hoping for the best. I feel like geniune innocence & vulnerability in my faith without taking control is social / emotional / economical suicide.
It becomes clear to me that i might never have given myself in complete trust to God for any length of time before fear set in. There might have ben short periods of feeling like i touched the divine, but then “social realities” set in.
December 13th, 2006 at 10:52 am
Name it and claim it is just one symptom of individualistic, me centred religion.
It seems to me the key tenet of true Christian faith is “Jesus is Lord”
Prayer fits right in here… it’s not about asking God to give me what I want or twisting his arm in some kind of “magic” manipulation. (Say the right formula and the gods will be placated and give us our wish) It’s all about surrendering to God as Lord… and seeing ourselves in our rightful place.
As Jesus said… pray instead like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name (I worship you as the Father who loves me, who is Lord over all, I give you the honor due to your name)
Thy Kingdom come (You are Lord! Rule in me and in this world)
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven (I commit myself to doing your will, I surrender myself to you and to your purposes in this world.)
Give us this day our daily bread (Please give me what I need for this day. I also pray for my brothers and sisters in need around the world. Help me to do what I can for them)
Forgive us our sins (Lord…. search my heart. Have mercy on me. Forgive the sins of my brothers and sisters also.)
As we forgive those who trespass against us (I recognise my pain from those who have hurt me, I seek your help to forgive, I seek your healing power)
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil (keep me on Your paths Lord)
For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever, Amen (I glorify you this day, and give you the praise due to your name)
You could do worse than pray the Lord’s prayer.
I also think “praying in the Spirit” is God’s Spirit interceding through you in line with the will of God… so if you have that gift use it!
Jesus is into short prayers, not long showy piety.
Does that make sense to you?
December 13th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Jane, Lionfish, Neil,
I’ll certainly respect your word on Powell. Please forgive my cynicism.
December 13th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Yeah Janet, it does.
What you have said is a world away from the attitude that has been fostered in me. I almost feel like i need to be re-educated & rehabilitated from scratch.
I don’t suspect that complete surrender will make me any happier than complete control, though. I could be wrong. But maybe it’s not about my happiness.
December 13th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Ah, this is the great biblical paradox… if you save your life you will lose it, if you lose your life you will find it. Just when you think you’re about to die the most painful death to self… joy comes creeping into your soul, and you discover what you really wanted in the first place was Him.
Quick experiment:
Get on your knees before God and say: “Lord, I come into your presence now, not to get anything from You, but only to give You my love and praise, only in order to bless You”.
Let me know what happens.
December 13th, 2006 at 12:59 pm
Reve, not coming from a pente background I have a different angle on things, so I’m not sure how well i can connect to what you’re wrestling with. It seems to me that we come to prayer asking the wrong questions. it isn’t what I want that is the basis of my prayers, or how to succeed in the world (though of course it would be dishonest prayer if we didn’t put all our wants and needs and struggles and desires out there on the table in the process. (Why not? He already knows more about what’s in our hearts than we do ourselves) The question at the heart of prayer is what does God want? What is His will, how is He going to bring it to pass, and how will He (who loves me more than His own life) meet my essential needs in the process? I have no right to order Him around, he is God, not me; on one level i am simply reporting for duty, and creating a space in my life to be more open to His Spirit’s work in me. but of course there are more dimensions to prayer than this, otherwise there would be little point in intercession for others. I believe jesus was talking about this in that part in John (15? i don’t have a bible in front of me) where He said I no longer call you servants but friends because a servant does not know His master’s business. I believe that part of the privilege of prayer is that we (and our prayers) are being taken up into God’s agenda and actually bringing more of his kingdom upon this earth. it’s not something we have any power to do, but in some way he uses our prayers to do something.
and of course prayer is also simply the place where we come to the father as children who need to experience His love. We are broken, we are dirty, we are helpless and afraid. we are disappointed in the world, in other people and sometimes, most of all, in ourselves. and we don’t understand why the God of all comfort lets us go through so much pain. it is only as we bring all this back to Him, pouring out our confusion and neediness, but trusting that the one who loves us so very much is there somewhere in all of this, that we begin to experience His healing and the wonder of being in fellowship with God Himself. for this, i believe, is the heart of all prayer, not so much what is accomplished, though that too will surely happen, but a relationship, where slowly, sometimes like walking with baby steps over broken glass, we learn what it means to trust him, ie to totally entrust ourselves to him ..
not sure that even touches on your questions, i guess I can only speak out of my own experience ..
December 13th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
I have only just found this great website. I have been reading all the previous posts particularly in relation to Hillsong. I thought I would share my experience of the Houstons and Hillsong. I apologise if this is off-topic for this thread.
A number of years ago I worked as a caterer at a function held in Brian Houston’s home for his wife Bobbie’s birthday. I was dumbstruck by a number of things:
1. The expensive Houston home was filled with very best that money could buy. Fittings, furniture and everything you can imagine, the very best.
2. The Houston garage was filled with expensive cars, a boat, a jet ski and heaps of other big boy toys.
3. The party was essentially staffed by “volunteer” members of the church who I felt behaved like sycophants throughout the evening, waiting on the Houston family hand and foot. I was one of the very few people paid to work at this private function. The rest of the staff, waitressed, cleaned up free of charge.
4. The regal arrogance of the Houstons, particularly Brian himself. They acted like royalty and treated the staff, paid and unpaid like plebs.
I left the function feeling utterly disenchanted and frankly appalled at the opulence of the Houston’s lifestyle. How can someone preach the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and then live like this while so many people in the world, even on our own doorstep, are in such need? If a budget is a “moral statement” about a person then I know what conclusion I can draw about the Houston’s morals. Sickening stuff.
December 13th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
” I apologise if this is off-topic for this thread.”
You couldn’t have given us a more on-topic post.
Feel free to elaborate.
December 13th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
I have been a Christian for over 20 years and so I have seen a lot in churches over the years. I know we all have our flaws and shortcomings and so I am slow to criticise anyone. This incident happened a few years ago now and I can tell you, it has haunted me ever since. In my view, there is no way anyone could justify that lifestyle. I just thought that it might be interesting for people to hear “first hand” how the Houstons live. The stuff I have read about with million dollar apartments in Bondi and expensive bicycles, motorbikes etc is obviously in keeping with what I saw for myself that night.
December 13th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Abby,
Thanks for your eye-opening post.
Incidently, I remember a time when the Gospel was always preached at every outdoor event at HS, including Christmas.
Is this no longer the case?
December 14th, 2006 at 7:14 am
In the past I have heard various arguments for why pastors in churches like Hillsong and CCC should be able to live a lavish lifestyle. I think it is actually quite simple. The idea is we are to be gradually becoming more and more “Christ-like” as we journey through life. If Jesus was given a “love offering” how many of us think he would spend it on a Harley Davidson or an expensive painting for His boardroom?
The argument that their churches are hugely successful and if they were in private business they would also be successful and so deserve to live like this is hollow. They are not in private business, they are pastors. Their focus should be Jesus and His message, not the world view, corporate message of prosperity and “what’s in it for me”.
How sad that when people in the general community talk about Hillsong and CCC they immediately talk about how money is the main focus, not the Gospel.
We are called to be discerning in our walk. I for one, don’t want to see my tithes and offerings going towards opulent fittings in a church or a flash car for the pastor.
December 14th, 2006 at 8:51 am
Thanks for your input Abby. Even the way that tithing is taught in these Churches is deceptive.
I have to chuckle. With the Lance Armstong bike, Jets ski’s and expensive houses, cars etc. - when I think back to the “Australian Story” interview and the comments around ‘being paid around the same as an average High School teacher’ etc. (Despite the accumualtion of properties etc. Jennifer Sexton later wrote in the Australian that Brian and Bobbie paid only around $30K tax in a recent year)
Deception and “Truthiness” go hand in hand.
Like Phil Baker decalring he is paid $100K. “Truthiness”.
“If you cannot trust spiritual leaders to teach you correctly with regard to temporal and earthly matters- especially money, then how can you trust them to teach you with regard to eternal and spiritual matters…? “
December 14th, 2006 at 9:05 am
I don’t know any high school teachers who can afford to live in a mansion, drive a fancy car, own a waterfront apartment in Bondi or ride a bike like Lance Armstrong or a Harley Davidson…….
If there is nothing to hide, why can’t Hillsong and CCC be completely transparent about the financials? If they ARE transparent and it is shown that there is nothing wrong with how they are conducting themselves then all this conjecture and criticism will go away.
I don’t get the whole “sheep” mentality in these megachurches. Ask some questions, get some answers, think for yourselves people!
December 14th, 2006 at 9:17 am
The Aspirational Stepfords move in….
A new young couple moved into my apartment block in Mosman about a month or so ago. They looked like they were in their early twenties, well -dressed, blonde hair & pearly whites (both), they were extremely polite, but very enquiring when i met them with another neighbour in the undercover carport.
After asking my name, they went straight into asking where i worked, what position i held there & whether i owned my apartment or just rented it. The same was asked of the other neighbour. I remember thinking how strange it was to ask those kinds of materialistic questions straight off the bat when meting someone new, but i obliged & gave them the answers.
Mosman is mostly olde money, no one really asks what you’ve got, they just assume that you’ve got it & have had it for generations.
Anyway, my mum happened to be visiting a cpl of weeks later & was helping me clean out my car in the driveway they approached again in their designer jogwear, this time with a third in tow, a brother-in-law, after the brief interaction with these cardboard cut-outs from a toothpaste commercial & their departure (which was rather strained & unnatural / uncomfortable) my mum said “I’m guessing Christians, possibly Mormons”.
I was picking up on a Pente vibe, though. And sure enough this morning from my balcony i hear faintly faimilar tunes, i walk out onto my balcony to locate the source - it was coming from the balcony where the couple lived. The music? you guessed it, the latest Hillsong album (i have it myself, a gift from a friend).
Hillsong has become so institutional in Sydney now, that you can profile & differentiate them in public.
If ever you come across a Christian with an unusual interest in what you own & what influence you hold & nothing else? ….Chances are the Stepford Hillsingers have moved into your neighbourhood.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:53 am
It is unfortunate that one of the first things that the general population think of when they think of Hillsong and others of the like is the way they deal with money. For all the proposed good to the Kingdom that these churches proclaim their money is making possible, there is a lot damage done to the Kingdom too.
Does the end justify the means? I don’t think so……
December 14th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Personally, I believe that their attitude towards money, the doctrine they preach about money and the way they conceal their financial records causes many, many people to stumble. They do a great deal of damage.
December 14th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
I think I’ve said it here before, the only problem I have with Hillsong is the way they deal with money, power and sex. And I think there is a common link between the three that is quite disturbing….
December 14th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Warning.
The following bullshit from Brian Houston may be unsuitable reading for former Hill$ong leaders with heart conditions.
http://www.leadershipministries.com.au/pages/default.asp?pid=1132
“A Leader’s Friendships
7 ways to wound a friendship
By Brian Houston
The people we do life with - our friends - have a significant impact on both our
relationship with God and also our future. It is for this reason that we as leaders should be setting a great example when it comes to our friendships, giving others something to follow.
In Proverbs 27:6, it says “Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.” The key word in this scripture is ‘faithful’. The true spirit of friendship is faithfulness, but there may be times when being a faithful friend would cause us to have to confront or chastise. This is never easy as it has the potential of wounding or hurting a friend, but for their sake, it is necessary.
Let me give you a simple example, which I am sure all of us have experienced at some point. You have just finished a meal an unbeknownst to you, spinach has imbedded itself between your front teeth. You talk to people, smile and get on with your day unaware of the green bits in your teeth. There are three ways a friend could respond to this situation:
1. The faithful way which is to tell you
2. The faithless way which is to say nothing
3. The unfaithful way which is saying nothing directly to you but then going and telling someone else about your misfortune.
I am sure we would all hope we have faithful friends that are willing to risk ?wounding? us in order to prevent us being further embarrassed or hurt by our actions or lack thereof!
Conversely, I, like you, want to be this kind of friend to others. To achieve this, I believe we need to guard against the following seven things that have the potential of irrevocably wounding or damaging our friendships:
1. Disloyalty
Proverbs 27:6 states that, ?the kisses of an enemy are deceitful?. It is talking about those who are friendly to our face but stab us the moment our back is turned. Just like Judas who was paid 30 pieces of silver to betray Jesus, and he did so with a kiss.
Loyalty is one of the great strengths of any friendship. In 1 Samuel 18:1-6, we read how Jonathon remained loyal to his friend David in spite of his father?s anger and the fact it would affect Jonathan?s royal standing in the future.
As leaders, loyalty in our friendships is important, but we also need to be aware that loyalties can become misguided. Therefore there is a need for parameters for the greater allegiances in our life. For instance, no friendship should distract us from our relationship with God, our destiny or the work of the Lord. Nor should a friendship pull us away from our marriage or family, or detrimentally affect other friendships.
Another scripture that speaks of friendship is Proverbs 18:24. In the Amplified Bible, it reads, ?the man of many friends [a friend of all the world] will prove himself a bad friend, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother?.
There will be times when we will have to make choices about who and what we will be friends with. Many want to try to be everyone’s friend, but the reality is we cannot be friends with everybody, as it will ultimately dilute our ability to be a good friend to anyone. When it comes to our loyalties, we have to make kingdom choices.
2. Inconsistency
An inconsistent friend is like a fisherman who begins to reel a fish in, only to let the line out again. In terms of friends these are the people that give a little but then pull back, making it difficult to know where the friendship stands.
An old wound such as fear or distrust can fuel inconsistency and in turn cause someone to keep drawing back. Therefore it is important as leaders that we work on areas that would inhibit our ability to be a consistent friend. That means counting the cost, embracing people and allowing them into our life.
3. Self-destruction
Some people expect friends to support them, no matter what they do. In the long run, making it easy for a friend who consistently makes poor lifestyle choices won?t help them. We always need to be kind, but often the best thing we can do as a faithful friend is to confront the issue.
Psalm 101:3 says, “I will set nothing wicked before my eyes; I hate the work of those who fall away; It shall not cling to me”.
The scripture speaks about not allowing the ?works? or ?actions? of those who choose to walk away from God to ?cling? to us. The reality is that certain things do stick, and as leaders, we need to decide what we will and won?t allow to cling to us.
Paul said this in 2 Thessalonians 3:6, ?But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.?
He instructed us to, “withdraw from those who walk disorderly…” He was talking about those people who are out of step with our lifestyle and thinking.
Sometimes we need to tell people that we are moving forward and not down their path of self-destruction. In so doing, we refuse to accept or condone behaviour that will ultimately be detrimental to their future.
4. Broken Confidences
When I was a teenager, I remember sharing with my youth leader about some things that were happening in my life at the time. I had made myself vulnerable as I trusted him and his counsel. I later found out that he shared what I had told him with his wife, who in turn told someone else. This broken confidence left me feeling betrayed and hurt.
Leaders who are faithful in their friendships need to know when to button their lips. With respect to this, I have learnt the following three things:
- Don’t lend your ear to anything you’re not prepared to give your mouth to.
- Don’t offload to others as a leader. Don?t put that pressure on people, if it?s not going to help them.
- Don’t put unfair expectations on others to carry secrets that sometimes may prevent them helping you.
5. Opportunism
I am sure many of us have experienced a friendship that was driven by a personal agenda or ulterior motive.
The Bible says in Proverb 14:20, ?The poor man is hated even by his own neighbour, but the rich has many friends.” It is referring to the fact that the friends of a rich man are in it for themselves, focused on the personal benefits and opportunities the friendship will bring.
As leaders, our friendships need to be genuine. It is not about what we can gain from others, but rather how we can contribute to people?s lives.
6. Poor Example & Poor Mentality
As leaders, we are all about helping people, but there is a potential danger for our churches to become hospitals where we nurse people?s wounds instead of actively working towards people becoming healed and whole.
There are those people who walk into our churches broken, but refuse to believe there is a way out of their brokenness. They want to be accepted as they are, rather than change their ways. Some people build friendships around these wounds, which can perpetuate poor thinking and poor example.
We need to be committed to build our friendships according to the highest common denominator ? what God has corporately called us to do, encouraging our friends to reach their potential.
We can actually wound a friendship by lowering our example to line up with their poor thinking or example as it condones their behaviour. Our role as faithful friends is to help people accept responsibility for changing and growing in order to become all God has called them to be.
7. Being manipulative or controlling
Healthy friendships are something we invest, contribute towards and build. However, time and again I have seen people become insecure about their friendships. They become threatened if their friend talks to or sees other friends.
A friendship is not something we own or possess. A controlling, manipulative spirit will only end up wounding a friendship.
You can lead by example in your friendships by being loyal to your friends, being consistent and refusing to go down the path to self-destruction with them. A faithful friend will keep confidences; keep their motives pure and build on the highest common denominator. Rather than being manipulative and controlling, make a decision to contribute and bring encouragement to all your friendships.
Ask yourself the following Leadership Measures in relation to all your relationships:
1. Is it hurting my relationship with God?
2. Is it distracting me from my call or purpose?
3. Is it destructive to the work of the Lord?
4. Is if helpful to my marriage or family?
5. Is it going to take away from the network of relationships God has given me?
© Brian Houston 2006 & © Bobbie Houston 2006″
December 14th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Same old, same old…….this is the type of stuff that kept us all bound & gagged in the face of obvious injustice as we didn’t want to be “disloyal”.
Amazing how you can still feel the old guilt buttons being pushed though as you read…..and the biggest reality check in the whole thing is to remember that “loyalty” was always sold as being towards the leader, NOT the other way around.
ie: if someone is going through a tough time, is too needy, not ambitious enough, has a few rough edges - dump them. Afterall, one of the corporate slogans which was often on walls years back was “do you want to fly with the eagles or walk with the turkeys?” (or something similar)
December 14th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
well said Jane…
December 14th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
My comment on #1257…
seriously, it would be so cool if these people practise that which they do preach…and actually be one of those friends themselves……I do not recall the bible saying, once you …apparently make it….in ministry,,, that such scriptures no longer apply to you……..
but……I guess that would be just too unrealistic, in this, real world, to even humour our selves with….