hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
December 15th, 2006 at 7:53 am
RE 1253: Reve, just wondering what sort of car you drive, do you own your apartment, and do you have a fat portfolio? If not, there’s a great book for you, it’s called “The Millionaire Mindset”.
Just kidding.
Jane, that’s so right… Before I left I struggled for about six months because I didn’t want to be disloyal. I had pretty much let them have their way with me, but as soon as I quit my job and stopped attending EVERY F*CKING SERVICE, that’s when they dumped me. Apparently now I would be considered one of the turkeys. It still makes me really depressed that I had to leave 99% of my friends to realize what was happening. What makes me even more depressed is that since I haven’t been back once, I haven’t been worth just one phone call from them.
But now that I’m out I realise that even though they think I’m turkeys, the people I have made friends with (mostly from work) think I’m an awesome guy.. And I’m not having to get my hair straightened, wear tight jeans, and wear vintage t-shirts to fit in. I only have to be me. I wish the people at CCC would realise that they don’t have to be at church to be THE church. Almost every party I go to on a Friday or Sunday night won’t be attended by the CCC guys, and those friends of mine at the party who don’t go there just don’t get it. It upsets them, as we all used to be friends.
Anyways, I’m gonna sign off because I’ve had much too little sleep.
December 15th, 2006 at 8:56 am
Oh my gosh, that is priceless!
the GUYS at CCC actually have their hair straightened to fit in? Too funny! Funniest thing ever - the CCC Stepford Metrosexual Emo.
A whole new breed!
Tell us more about this pretense!
December 15th, 2006 at 9:55 am
There has long been a culture at CCC where if say, a senior Pastor dyes his hair white blonde and starts wearing his shirts with the collar turned up and not tucked in, you come back next week and there are 20 clones in the first few rows. I have always found this amusing and frankly a little sad. The hair straightening fad has been around for a while. Cookie cut-out, factory line sheep. Baa.
December 15th, 2006 at 10:11 am
I don’t think that is purely a CCC or Hillsong thing. I think it happens everywhere, church or not. Having said that, I agree that it is amusing. Especially as I have no hair!!!!
December 15th, 2006 at 10:19 am
I agree it is not exclusively a CCC or Hillsong thing but let’s face it, it is rife in both places and it illustrates a disturbing mentality. Isn’t the no hair thing the latest fad. Sorry, just teasing you now.
December 15th, 2006 at 10:42 am
There was an evangelist that wore Khaki pants in the 199o’s at Chruchlands … ashamedly I went out and bought similar clothes so I too could get the safari dude look.
We all do dumb things!
December 15th, 2006 at 10:54 am
I just shaved my head. No I’m cool like SB
(Of course, I’ve been shaving it every 3-4 days for the past 4 years, but I did it again to be cool like SB - I feel SO cool…)
December 15th, 2006 at 11:10 am
When i was at CCC in the early to mid 90’s it was a suit or business jacket over a t-shirt. Miami Vice style. It started with the Pastors & trickled diown. Oh yeah, & you had to be into Herbalife Distribution….
God, we were idiots.
December 15th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Lionfish = can you send me an e-mail, dan and Phil can you give him my address
December 15th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Kev,
email me at clan.mackenzie@bigpond.com
December 15th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
Theres someone else keeping an eye on $S
http://www.megachurchwatch.org/
December 16th, 2006 at 12:27 am
Hair-straightening.
December 19th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Hi all, I’ve done a myspace blog on Hillsong with some lengthy but fairly rudimentary critiques. I have many Hillsongers on my myspace network so I hope to engage in debate with them. If you wish to follow the progress read here:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&pop=1&indicate=1
Cheers.
December 19th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Hey emblazoned,
That link is the default link for someones personal blog. So when I clicked it it took me to my blog. Can you send a direct link?
December 19th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
“What is a cult? A real cult, one that we should be weary of. As believers we should be aware of these things and the people meeting together here in Joondalup should know if we are heading down some odd paths too. So I looked up our favorite ‘demon buster’ Adrian Van Leen’s book “The Problem of Extreem Christian Fringe Groups”. A book about groups one step away from being a true cult and here is the list of what makes up one of these “fringe groups”.
The Preaching of Fundamentalist Revival
The Leader’s/Pastor’s Domination
Arrogant Authoritanism
Regular Calls to Submission and Obedience
Strong Emphasis on Tithing
Narrow Outlook and Perspective
Poor Theological Training
Distorted Theological Emphasis
Insensitive Simplistic Solutions
Agressive Recruiting/Proselytising
Intense Confession
Promotion of Guilt
Alienation
Exclusiveness
Hmmm, based on that list there are one or two churches within walking distance of my house that could tick a few of those on that list!!”
From http://noguarantees.blogspot.com/2006/12/what-is-cult.html
December 19th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
emransu,
I’d love to but I don’t know how. I just cut and paste the url of my blog page. How else should i do it?
December 19th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Anyhow, just go to http://www.myspace.com/the_emblazoned_tome and click on the blog on the top right labelled Hillsong etc…
December 19th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
There are two possible emblazoned Hill$ong blogs.
“I’ve made a move recently to start going to Hillsong Church Ryde of a Sunday morning….it’s church in a cinema! That’s right, we have church in cinema number ten that spends the rest of the week screening movies! The band sets up a stage out the front and we use the screens for church news and stuff…I’m loving it so far! (Such a Hillsong outlook :P). Me leader Craig Rains made the call, asking me to head on over and build up the service. It’s a mad service…it’s headed up by pastor Matt Tickner, a leader from back in the day in Hillsong Youth. Matt also ran HDYS not so long ago. Lots of people I know are there; Jon and Drew from cell, Will (no he won’t dance. I asked him) and his girl Louisa; as well as Craig himself and a growing number of new friendly faces. It’s the smoothest and easier transition you could imagine. Already a small group of Studentlifers are coming (Jay Rei, Mike Wray, Steph Sme..Smelts Metals)and Ness came last week and she LOVED it…which I’m very happy about. The service is very Hillsong, and Ness and I agree that this would be a place where we’d be happy to invite friends (no groan factor!)
Speaking of Ness, I was handing in an assignment today and I saw a poster for an Outreach she’s helping organise. My heart swelled with pride…it’s a funky poster and I think the whole outreach will be an excellent piece of work…she’s doing such a great job. Good on ya Nessy!
Speaking of pride nothing gets me proud the way my core group guys do! These guys are champions for the Lord and are fully stepping up to make an impact for Him! Jay Rei was always a dude, and he’s involved helping me lead, as is Johnny Sharpe who’s taking time and effort out to come and contribute on a day he wouldn’t always be on uni! Richard is stepping up and being a bomb at getting into God, as well as doing evangelism and getting to Summer Salt against notable opposition! Mike Harris and Rod, both first years, are proving themselves and jumping right into the fray; Rod against some serious opposition and Mike has already started contributing to weekly meetings! Mike Wray is also stepping up, coming to SummerSalt and joining in evangelism….he’s a got a neat bag of tricks on offer! Dave Morgan we love you too man! Will be in touch soon!
Well, that’s the rough of it. Hnn…need to tidy stuff at home and look after that front a bit more…otherwise…in good shape…
whitetower whitetower whitetower….”
But a year’s a long time at Hill$ong…
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=5110610&MyToken=51dd4030-f1f8-4fd1-a673-fb306706b206ML
“Now first of all, please don’t put me in the same box of Hillsong slaggers that I’ve been working against my whole adult life. I do actually know the Hillsong belief system. Five years there, two of them more than full time (ie every day of the week) has given me enough time to have some understanding of the system, the way people think and interact. I’m not going by hearsay. I know Hillsong pretty well.
As someone in a unique position, I’d like to offer a critique of Hillsong’s methods. I don’t want to evaluate the church itself…I wouldn’t dare to put myself in a position where I judge the investments of peoples lives and energies in such a blaise manner. What I wish to do is weigh up some pros and cons, and hopefully introduce some Hillsongers to some critical thinking that won’t be instantly dismissed as un-positive thinking. Proverbs 9:8 “Rebuke a wise man and he will love you”. Again my goal is not to destroy, but to build up. If you are a Hillsonger, I encourage you to engage with me in the discussion.
Strengths
Before we get critical, let’s appraise the situation. Hillsong is the largest church congregation in Australia. In total it pulls in about 20 000 people a weekend, and has enjoyed a lengthy period of numbers growth. Financially it is also very successful. It has bought land and buildings worth tens of millions of dollars and has been paying of it’s debts at such lightning speed it would terrify any bank looking for revenue on a loan. It has state of the art equipment. Ask any Hillsonger and they will tell you of Hillsong’s true pride and joy: changed lives. Across many countries where Hillsong TV is presented and Hillsong music is played, there are so many testimonies of people positively impacted it would fill a….big, empty thing. I’ve talked with boys from Teen Challenge who are convinced they would be dead if it were not for people from Hillsong. There are numerous testimonies of individuals within the church given purpose and direction. In and of themselves, these are all very good things.
A Critique
Please understand my appreciation of the good of Hillsong. But having said all that, there are some critiques I’m willing to make public:
Cult Like Hierarchy
My most pressing concern with Hillsong is the culture of it’s internal workings. It’s culture is distinctly cult-like. Why?
For several reasons. First, reasonable questioning of leadership stances is not permitted. If in Hillsong you question the Scriptural accuracy of a teaching from the pulpit, more often than not you place yourself in the firing line. You will be blacklisted as being unsupportive, and most likely you will be given some time to evaluate your attitude, but no leader will engage in healthy debate. All debates are presumed won by the Hillsong leader before you enter discussion, for them it is simply a matter of waiting for you to ‘come round’ to see it there way. This is justified by a belief system where the leader has had more ‘revelations’ and that they have got more of ‘it’ in their spirit. (’It’ being the magic fairy dust that has made Hillsong successful). Debates of a theological nature are therefore useless. Anyone perceived as dissenting is blacklisted. For those who question this aspect of Hillsong, I have testimonies of several ex-pastors who have been hounded out of Hillsong, people who were supportive of the church and poured their blood sweat and tears into it.
The belief system is that the leaders at the top of Hillsong have more revelation, rendering them immune to reasonable theological questioning. They are not accountable to anyone for their teaching system.
Christian Celebrity Culture
Hillsong culture contains a strong Christian celebrity culture. Everyone knows the famous names. And I believe many, many Hillsongers secretly desire their own piece of Hillsong fame. The culture has strong elements of the scramble upward…people trying to be cool, good looking, and successful in order to enjoy social promotion, which may look like a level of leadership in Hillsong and the associated kudos. Rather than the first will be last, I really see many in Hillsong are coveting the higher positions. I know many people who had beautiful hearts to serve God, but were overlooked for leadership simply because they weren’t cool enough. This is the darker side of Hillsong.
Money
Firstly, tithing. Now let me state my position emphatically:
TITHING IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. I would appreciate it deeply if you are a Hillsonger if you can show me where in the New Testament tithing is taught. If you cannot, but instead state that it is an eternal principle, why then is it taught so strongly in Hillsong to the point one feels incredibly guilty if they do not tithe? I accept firstfruits as an eternal principle, but tithing is not. And I think it is deceitful to teach people that it is and bring them into bondage.For goodness sake, there are very few times in the history of the church that tithing was taught (outside modern day pentecostalism, the other time was medieval Catholicism) the vast majority of Christian history never even taught tithing because it is not something you would naturally infer from the text.
And this is important. There are single mothers trying to raise a family on a minimal income. Ten percent of their income means a heck of a difference to them. If the New Testament church principle is tithing, why does Paul only ask that people give according to their income (1 Cor 16:2) but never even mentions tithing, despite devoting entiring chapters to the topic of giving? The Hillsong pastor will justify it by saying they are teaching principles of success, but let me ask some simple questions:
1. Has anyone conducted a study on the impact of tithing on household incomes over a period of time, say a five year plan?
2. Do most cases of those who tithe show financial improvement over the given period (let us not demand all, let us assume some people have bad motives etc etc so it does not work in all cases)
3. Do you really think those who tithe over that time are in reality better off than those who do not?
As far as I am aware, there is no such study. What is being taught here is just a belief system of a Christian leader. Does it work for them? YES! When they teach tithing, people tithe, church income goes up, they live a blessed life!! Hallelujah tithing works! But many people in the congregation do not experience this. Plus, if they choose not to do this unbiblical act, they are guilt tripped every week. From where I sit, this is a terrible injustice.
Let this suffice for now. I have much deeper criticisms of Hillsong money teachings, but I lack the space here to divulge.
Evangelism Format
In at least one missionary organisation I work with, there is a distinction made between ‘attractional’ models of evangelism and ‘incarnational’ models of evangelism. It is my belief that one is vastly superior to the other.
Attractional models of evangelism are about bringing people to your event. They involve inviting, great preaching etc. Hopefully, people experience God somewhere during the service and they ‘get saved’. Hillsong, to it’s credit, is the very best example of this kind of model I know.
But what I don’t understand is why they are still using the attractional model for evangelism. Hillsong may be enjoying growth, but having worked in the New Chrsitian department, I can tell you straight - Hillsong is not seeing great numbers of new people ’saved’ each week. In fact, the majority of Hillsong’s growth is Christians coming from other churches. Hillsong is not effectively reaching the world. It needs a serious wake up call. I encounter many non-Christians, and the first reaction they have with Hillsong is usually not ‘wow they’re so relevant’.
But there is another kind of evangelism that works, ‘incarnational’. That is, you go out and join other people. This works great in pubs or on beaches. Go where they are. To me, this is the biblical model. It requires YOU to understand the gospel, and adapt its presentation to various situations, which requires YOU just being genuine and real. Now I believe there are times for a meeting where a preacher preaches the gospel, but a purely attractional model for evangelism is very poor indeed.
I cna say much more, but to stop this post being ridiculously long, I will stop there. I hope to engage in positive, repsectful debate, particularly with Hillsongers. So, tell me what you think ^_^ “
December 19th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
You’re a brave man, emblazoned!
December 19th, 2006 at 11:15 pm
Alan, Dave’s been watching the megachurch for a while. I believe he lurks here, too.
December 19th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
What do you mean by “hair straightening” Lance?
December 20th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Hi Bec,
It’s gonna hit the fan somewhat I reckon.
I’d appreciate some support, esp from Lionfish. I’m still deep enough inside the circles to create something of a stir. Haha. Oh dear.
December 20th, 2006 at 12:45 am
“What do you mean by “hair straightening” Lance?”
http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/04/10/hillsongs-the-next-installment/#comment-152632
“emanresu Says: But now that I’m out I realise that even though they think I’m turkeys, the people I have made friends with (mostly from work) think I’m an awesome guy.. And I’m not having to get my hair straightened, wear tight jeans, and wear vintage t-shirts to fit in. I only have to be me. I wish the people at CCC would realise that they don’t have to be at church to be THE church.”
“Reve Says:
Oh my gosh, that is priceless!
the GUYS at CCC actually have their hair straightened to fit in? Too funny! Funniest thing ever - the CCC Stepford Metrosexual Emo.”
“abby Says:
There has long been a culture at CCC where if say, a senior Pastor dyes his hair white blonde and starts wearing his shirts with the collar turned up and not tucked in, you come back next week and there are 20 clones in the first few rows. I have always found this amusing and frankly a little sad. The hair straightening fad has been around for a while. Cookie cut-out, factory line sheep. Baa.”
“Lance says:
Hair-straightening.
:rolls: “
December 20th, 2006 at 11:42 am
emblazoned - you are in for…some interesting times. my thoughts are with you.
December 20th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
I’d like all to note how supportive many Hillsongers have been so far….
December 20th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Wow Embalzoned. Paryaers were answered. You have come out of the “Matrix”.
December 21st, 2006 at 6:57 am
I love what you’re doing Steve. Everyone can see your heart for the church, and the gentle and balanced way you’re bringing your concerns to light is going get heaps of people thinking (the number of people the discussion will be far than those who comment) , and the Church will be the richer for the conversation. We can just pray that it doesn’t explode in flames.
December 21st, 2006 at 7:04 am
Good on you emblazoned
*In at least one missionary organisation I work with, there is a distinction made between ‘attractional’ models of evangelism and ‘incarnational’ models of evangelism. It is my belief that one is vastly superior to the other.*
which missionary organisation is this emblazoned? Are you a forge imbiber?
December 21st, 2006 at 7:23 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d4zHTZIJPA This is hugely funny - Chopper Read does the night before Christmas - a lot of swearing so if you are tender of disposition - have a look and toughen up ya sissy!
December 21st, 2006 at 8:00 am
That was so funny, I love chopper Read he brought the gangsta to ozzy rap
rev