hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
December 23rd, 2006 at 11:42 am
Yeah, I too was seriously concerned about this story. Where’s the professional counselling? proper drug rehab? even, dare I say it, appropriate boundaries? Their faith and love are beautiful and commendable, their naivete is frightening. It sounds like there are no procedures at all in place for handling this appropriately .. i find it quite scary, and actually find myself praying for their protection, that their enthusiasm doesn’t get taken for a ride into some very nasty places ..
December 23rd, 2006 at 12:59 pm
“And btw lance, was it a waste for Mr Fish to reason with me?”
Yes, because you’re still clearly more in tune with the Hill$ong mindset than what you’re trying to make out here.
“I don’t mind prosperity theology overly, and I enjoy many aspects of Hillsong’s take on prosperity, whilst reserving a disdain for the grosser excesses of Word of Faith teaching.
Posted by emblazoned On Friday, December 22, 2006 at 4:27 AM”
December 23rd, 2006 at 2:37 pm
I’ll ask before I bother to try… has anyone here been in touch with the Hillsong College principal to ask questions about the supervision of students, and the protocols to use when ministering to those with mental illness and addiction issues?
I can understand fringe groups being this clueless… when it’s under the supervision of an accredited tertiary institution this is almost beyond belief.
December 23rd, 2006 at 11:32 pm
Gee its been a while since I commented. There is supposed to be a support network its called Emerge. Having had personal experience there in a crisis I would say that if you can contact the right people there is a wealth of experience and multi agency referal - or there was. There are also qualified non naive social welfare workers under their banner. Surely this should be known amongst students of the college. Then again maybe they just didn’t think about it.
Now Lance I know Emerge has come in for quite a lashing at times but there are some good people there who work there, at the coalface (why did I use that phrase I despise it) because they believe they can help Joe Average and Anna Underthebreadline. I was helped, as I said, during a crisis situation.
December 23rd, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Merry Christmas to all and to all a goodnight!
December 24th, 2006 at 12:06 am
Actually before I go - did anyone get the Houston’s Christmas Card? (This is a glossy printed card with family pics and graphics approx 12cm x 36cm long folded concertina like into 3 so that it sits 12 x 12 ) Anyone wonder how much such a peice of printing like that costs? How much the postage to all on their books costs? (I don’t go there and I still got one) Who pays for it - the Houston’s or the church or LMI? Is it a tax right off by the church?
To top this all off it seems the “Keeping up with Houstons” sending of cards disease is catching. I have been attending Hawkesbury Church about half an hour further out of Sydney than Hillsong it is run by Ian Woods (who heads up AOG NSW). We received from them a card in the same style that had the gall to say “From the Woods’ of the Hawkesbury and Newcastle” (Youngest son is Senior Pastor at a Newcastle AOG). And so it goes down the line - the Pastor of the extension service sends us his smaller scale printed card with family pics etc.
Needless to say not enamoured by this use of funds (or its lack of environmental stewardship) and it adds another nail in the coffin of my church attendance which has been growing rather sparse of late - am trying to convince hubby to leave but he justifiably feels those he considers friends will wipe him if we go. As for me I’m over wanting friendships that are conditional on going to church whichever church that maybe.
December 24th, 2006 at 1:16 am
“he justifiably feels those he considers friends will wipe him if we go. ”
Nearly all church friendships are fake or faked.
December 24th, 2006 at 2:14 am
Emblazoned appears to have been ‘got at’ by the Hill$ongers.
“Saturday, December 23, 2006
Apology
Apologising, particularly to those in Hillsong, for the public nature of my critique. I maintain my concerns, and lack confidence in a private method for their resolution, but that does not necessarily mean a public critique will produce good fruit.
God bless all.”
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=5110610&MyToken=1f5d89bf-9df6-4ffb-8150-410a72b61a71ML
He has shut down all discussion on Hill$ong on his blog and all previous discussions are now marked ‘censored’.
http://www.myspace.com/the_emblazoned_tome
December 24th, 2006 at 2:35 am
I think we’re to blame.
Emblazoned has fallen in with that ‘Signposts crowd’ and it’s ruining his life.
He’s becoming contaminated by ‘the world’ and those under the curse who don’t live by Malachi 3.
Next he’ll be selling penis pumps in a Kings Cross Club X and listening to JJJ.
All because of us.
December 24th, 2006 at 2:38 am
(Hopefully you noticed I engaged in some Pringle-think there, by contrasting my position with a silly alternative; just keeping you CCC-watchers on your toes).
December 24th, 2006 at 3:02 am
No hillsonger has influenced me to censor blogs. im trying a new approach.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:36 am
“A new appraoch…????” [In best Mony Python voice]
This is the first time I have seen a revolutionary turn up to a protest with placards that read “sorry”…
What appraoch are you planning … a hunger strike…?
December 24th, 2006 at 8:07 am
I think Emblazoned is entitled to be led by the Spirit and his own conscience himself without manipulation… obviously this is a mild version, but surely one of the things that has been criticised here about Hillsong is a culture where differences of opinion or approach are discouraged. Give him a break… and liberty to try a “new approach”.
I think taking some time to stop and evaluate what he’s doing isn’t a bad thing.
Thanks for the reassurance Grace Required… I can only hope the people involved in the “M” incident were properly debriefed and given direction about what to do next time. I hope the… er… “Asian Lady” is followed up too.
December 24th, 2006 at 8:08 am
“He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, although he was innocent of crime…”
December 24th, 2006 at 8:21 am
thanks for freedom Janet
Mr Fish, you are a very spiritual man! Fasting is an excellent idea! I like how you think! I bet you speak in tongues too, and practice austere aceticism. Especially during Lent.
December 24th, 2006 at 8:27 am
Are you referring to grumpy Mr. Lance? Aw, don’t worry about it, he’s like that with everyone! You’ve got to admit it though, he’s funny!
December 24th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Hmm…I wasn’t referring to Lance, actually, but it fits well, no? lance is allowed to captain the grumblebum team. He’s got some reasons to do so.
December 24th, 2006 at 8:33 am
On another tangent… there are alternatives to going to an institutional church, Grace Required.
Interesting and robust discussion involving some pros and cons of the housechurch movement at http://branthansen.typepad.com/letters_from_kamp_krusty/2006/12/we_quit_going_t.html
December 24th, 2006 at 8:35 am
“Lamb to the slaughter” is a bit cryptic for me! Did you mean from the Hillsong brigade?
December 24th, 2006 at 9:05 am
I was following Steve’s blog and I don’t think he said had anything for which he needed to apologise. Everything he wrote was respectful, particularly with those holding different points of view. He did say that no HS leadership had been willing to discuss his concerns, but if any did, he would apologise and take off the discussion.
December 24th, 2006 at 10:22 am
Eric, I agree with you.
I was about half keystroke away from posting a comment on Steve’s blog, but thought better of it…after all it’s Steve’s blog. Though I must admit to feeling a little disappointed that the HS discussions have been taken down, but again, that’s Steve’s prerogative.
Steve, I admire your journey and all your efforts regarding HS.
I still hold a great deal of admiration for many of my old friends who are still at HS, a few of whom are quite well known…and this is in the back of my mind whenever I post here. I too, have no desire to hurt them in any way, yet there is a need to bring the issues out into the open, especially when the leadership refuses to acknowledge their existence, or refuses to engage in discussion.
I was ‘cogitating’ on this quandary this morning when the words of Ephesians 6:12 came to mind:
‘For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places’.
It’s about what HS has become and what’s really driving the machine, not the individual churchgoer.
For all it’s faults, there are many individuals at HS who faithfully serve God and probably have no idea about what is really going on behind the scenes… or they regard any controversial issues as ‘being negative,therefore unhelpful’ or ‘an attack of the devil’.
December 24th, 2006 at 10:49 am
This all sounds so AMWAY,,,,,
December 24th, 2006 at 10:50 am
It really does
December 24th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Permission to quote you guys on my blog, Singer and Eric?
Lionfish, I’d be very grateful if you could compile for me ‘A Case Against Hillsong’. It would need to be rational, objective, and supported with evidence. Is that possible? I’m imagining something with sequential points, using testimonies from Geoff Bullock and a certain previous director of the College, as well as media interactions etc.
Yes I know it’s a bit of a task, but you have access to more information from your research than I do, and I have use for such a paper…
December 24th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
WHAT!!! You don’t want to quote ME ????
This makes me angry enough to drag a possum.
December 24th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
I already had permission to quote you akevin.
If you still want to drag that possum, I dearly hope you’re not on your P licence
December 24th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Steve, permission granted.
December 24th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
I feel so bad… I was so distraught over not being quoted that I went out to drag a possum… I couldn’t find one and went to wal-Mart and there in the toy section I found my solution.
The cops couldn’t arrest me though, there is no penalty for dragging a teddy bear in Indiana.
Then I come back only to find I may be quoted yet…
This blogging thing is making monsters of us all…
December 24th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Steve, I supposed that your taking down of the conversation was an indication that a HS leader had offered to discuss things with you.
I’m also happy to be quoted (though I didn’t think I had said anything very noteworthy).
December 24th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Steve,
No Probs…
It is a huge task so it might take a week or so.
As you know I have been asking questions directly of these leaders without success. None of the Pastors will sit down with me and go through the issues (especially after I put the issues in writing to Phil Baker with no adequate response).
You did not need to apologise. The limited, inadequate curt responses I have had from Senior Pastors indicates that they act ‘hard-heartedly’ and the networked organisation that they wish to protect takes priority over people and Truth.
Don’t get weak kneed with these guys. There has been no sign of authentcity or humility from any of these leaders to questions that have been asked.
Imagine asking Marjoe Gortner for answers - while he was in business and before he exposed himself.