hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
December 24th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Thanks Lionfish, anything you can do would be greatly appreciated.
I have reopened the can on my blog, although very very softly. Thanks fro letting me quote you guys.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Bit of a bugger trying to find possums in Indiana…
You’re welcome to collect a few of the darn things from my neighborhood… they’ve half eaten an oak tree in my back yard. It’s looking a very sorry sight.
December 24th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Merry Christmas all. I’ll be away from the ‘puter’ for a bit, so I’ll catcha all in a week or so.
Stay safe ‘n well
Toddy
December 24th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Emblazoned
Re “Lionfish, I’d be very grateful if you could compile for me ‘A Case Against Hillsong’.”
Lete prepare a ‘Case For Change For Hillsong’ rather than ‘ACase Aganist Hillsong’.
It is Chrstmas after all.
December 24th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Agreed Mr Fish. A much better title.
December 25th, 2006 at 2:18 am
“Yawning at Hillsong
Right now I’m visiting my parents in Sydney and so is my uncle. A friend of my uncle’s regularly visits Hillsong church when he is in Sydney and recommended that he did the same. I thought it would be nice to accompany him to what is undoubtedly Australia’s most famous church. It would also be a good excuse to check out what Hillsong is really like. I’ve heard raving endorsements as well as scathing criticisms including tales of prosperity gospel preaching. Putting these things aside I decided to try and go in with an open mind, at least to find out why this kind of church is so popular.
Like a football game we were ushered in to a parking bay, then like concert we walked passed all the merchandising and take away foods and were ushered into the auditorium and church began.
There were lots of points I could talk about like…
How the music was so incredibly polished it seemed to lack any soul at all.
How about the mini sermon before the offertory slowly morphed from Jesus saying to a rich young ruler “give your money to the poor” to why don’t you put some money in the offertory buckets (yes they were buckets but they are a big church so I didn’t mind).
How that Darlene Zsechs’s sermon not only didn’t really seem to say anything but also didn’t even seem to have its own internal logic or any structure.
As much as I could write about these things I’m sure they are probably all old ground for many people.
What struck me the most about Hillsong was how bored I was. Hillsong is about as professional looking and slick as you can get, but like a big blockbuster movie with loads of special effects and no story line, it was boring. This I wasn’t expecting. Once you get over the idea that the church has a decent enough band to back any professional middle of the road artist, the images and film are high quality enough to be used by a home renovation TV show and there are actually lots of people there, there is so little to be impressed about. I was bored out of my brain and my uncle was both thoroughly disappointed in the experience and glad that I didn’t bring my wife along and waste her time.
So why is this church popular? I’m not sure but I wonder if it’s popular because it’s really easy. Turning up every Sunday to watch a big TV show for one and half hours is really easy. You just turn up walk in, sit down, watch and leave. There are no awkward lonely people to meet afterwards, there are no people who need extra help next Friday night for the church bread run and there is no need to help pack up at the end of church. What is more there is also no guilt about not doing this because during the service you can give money to fund outreaches to lonely awkward people, outreaches to hungry people and money to keep a venue that doesn’t need to be packed up for other purposes during the week.”
From http://achurchlessfaith.blogspot.com/2006/12/yawning-at-hillsong.html
December 25th, 2006 at 10:52 am
From a message I got from a staff worker at Hillsong:
hope you’re good!
so i hope you think im not one of the hillsong boys, cause im not!
just to clarify, im not actually supporting hillsong! i know it’s ironic, but i agree with everything you are saying about hillsong … yet i cannot express this publicly since i am employed by hillsong … and the repurcussions of my stating my opinions would endager my income and job (ironic eh!). so im exactly where you’re at but unlike you, im attached to the insitution! how i wish i could be the lone ranger
December 25th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Emblazoned,
Expect more.
I have a number of emails from current CCC, RV and Hillsong people - some of who feed me snippets of information that they feel need to be made public.
I have two cases of people questioning ‘Tithing’ in the past year at CCC and have been threatened with “excommunication”.
Anyway get back to enjoying Christmas…
December 25th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
hey emblazoned,
you might want to remind this guy that he professes to worship a bloke who not only gave up his career, but his life for what he believed in.
That message makes me soooo angry…
I’ve been thinking of you. I think that what you’re doing is brave, perhaps stupid (but no more stupid than what Christ did!), potentially a source of immense pain to you. I’m enjoying watching this story develop.
Merry Christmas all!!
December 26th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Thanks to Steve’s background picture, ‘myspace’ looks like ‘my$pace’ in at least one place on the page
December 26th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
“I agree with everything you are saying about hillsong … yet i cannot express this publicly since i am employed by hillsong ”
One day we will have to answer for our actions and I don’t believe that one can say I was unable to stand up for truth because I was attached to the institution. I did want to stop the lies but I was afraid of Brian!!!!
Is that ok can i go through now.
December 26th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Eric…whaaaat?
December 27th, 2006 at 7:28 am
On the page “up in a cloud”, there is a row of links at the bottom. The last of them appears (to me at least) to say My$paceShop, the $ sign formed by chance by the S and the background picture, (the page of old writing).
December 27th, 2006 at 10:53 am
Oh ok. Nah, doesn’t work on my browser. Different pixel sizes most likely.
December 29th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Please feel free to quote anything I have written, if it helps your blog. I haven’t visited Signposts for ages, so I am just catching up on your journey.
I have spent so much time of late examining my motives and my attitudes towards Hillsong as it is now. What would I ask of Brian and his team? It all comes down to one words: “honesty”. I just wish they would, I wish they could admit their wrongs as ask for forgiveness. I have spent the last 11 years speaking my ‘truths’ and asking forgiveness, even in the midst of some angry rants, I have returned to admit my wrongs and to invite an open examination of all I have been and have become. The truth liberates us from who we would like to be into who we really are. I just wish that would be the mark of the largest and most influential church that Australia has seen. I so wish that their abiding fruit was unashamed and open truth. The grace in that would be liberating for all.
December 29th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Geoff Bullock i am so glad to hear from you again. I too am wanting to make sure my motives are pure in everything I do. It is difficult to really know - there is always room for improvement. I wanna pray for you mate.
December 29th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Thanks mate.. I would appreciate that. Our motives will always betray our humanity, so, please don’t look or strive for perfection, you will only drive yourself into confusion and self doubt. Just be honest. It’s ok to feel hurt, somewhat betrayed and angry. It’s ok to have misgivings, to ask the more uinpalatable questions, in short, it’s ok to speak the truth, after all, if you hold back the truth what use is that? It is the truth about us that enables us to change. It is the truth about us that drives us to appreciate grace. It is the truth about our real selves that unburdens us from false expectations. Don’t be hard on yourself. Speak the truth, hear the truth and walk in grace. Bless you heaps mate. Take care. It really is ok to be free.
December 30th, 2006 at 1:23 am
“In People in Glass Houses (A&U, May), Tanya Levin, who grew up in what became Hillsong, tracks how a small, suburban Assemblies of God church became a cult multimillion-dollar tax-free enterprise and powerful social force.”
From http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20975158-5001986,00.html
This is not going to be pretty.
January 3rd, 2007 at 10:32 am
Lance, have you seen this yet?
http://www.megachurchwatch.org/
Hmmm.
January 3rd, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Thanks for the link.
January 3rd, 2007 at 3:03 pm
I just read the HS website music section - and Brian has an article about unity. It makes me wonder what is up with that - why isn’t Darle
January 5th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Hi
Been reading a while but this is my first comment. I just wanted to say that whilst I find some of the posts mean spirited, I am enjoying the uninhibited discussions on things within many churches that need to be publicised. There is a Hell of a lot of rubbish being preached in Churches nowadays, and just like the Prophets of the OT the church (body of Christ, not institutions) need people to stand up and denounce false and ungodly teachers. You may be pleased to know that as the Pastor (and I use that term only because it’s one that best sdescribes my position- Jesus was quite clear in instructing us not to call each other “Rabbi”, “Pastor” or “Teacher”) of a small pente church, I am using signposts as a “what not to do” guide for how to run the church. Of course, not everything discussed I aggree with, but what would life be like if we all agreed? Oh, I know…it would be like HS
January 5th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Oh, and emanresu, I had something to do withTV at CCC at some point. Our paths may have crossed, although I left CCC about 5 yrs ago
January 5th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Fruitbats do make a lot of noise don’t they? Glad to have you on board Pastor Hate-Fruitbats.
Just wanted to post to say all this stuff is in my dreams now…last night I had a dream where I was passionately laying out a case for why Hillsong is offtrack. Anyhting that I start dreaming about is pretty full-on…it’s a deep part of my psyche.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
I welcome the sentiments you’ve expressed I_h8_fruitbats, but I am wary of any pastor who reckons they they are somehow ‘different’.
Even the best-intentioned pastor carries with them the baggage of the environment they came out of.
One of the most common examples I’ve heard from the mouths of pastors-who-aren’t-churchy goes something like this…”isn’t it awesome that our church doesn’t talk weird or different to how people on the street talk? Ay-men? Hallelujah.” (Pretty much a direct quote from Pastor Ron Ings at Churchlands, but I’ve heard variations of that from Phil Baker and other penty knobs.)
Newsflash for pastors. People on the street don’t say ‘ay-men?’ or ‘hallelujah’..or even ‘praise God!’.
I used to find it bewildering how self-deluded some pastors are about the way they communicate, but now I just find it to be tragically hysterical.
So I reserve judgement on I_h8_fruitbats’ non-fruitbattyness until I see him/her in action, because self-fruitbat-assessments by pastors are notoriously unreliable.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
“I am using signposts as a “what not to do” guide for how to run the church.”
God help your congregation.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
I don’t get it.
How can you do a pente church without wank?
If your church is without wank, then it’s no longer a pente congregation.
It’s like having the Marx Brothers without any of the Marx Brothers.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
If I h8 fruitbats means… avoid emotional manipulation, avoid legalistic teaching on tithing instead of a focus on whole of life stewardship, don’t have hidden financial dealings (ie keep everything audited and transparent), don’t be unapproachable and unaccountable and uncorrectable when in leadership, don’t bully staff or volunteers, don’t focus so much on the music that you lose a sense of the meaning of worship, don’t neglect the poor or the pastoral needs of your community… but DO attempt authenticity, transparency, appropriate connection with the local community, a focus on the teachings of Jesus not the teachings of “prosperity” peddlers… well, all power to him.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
“Just wanted to post to say all this stuff is in my dreams now…last night I had a dream where I was passionately laying out a case for why Hillsong is offtrack. Anyhting that I start dreaming about is pretty full-on…it’s a deep part of my psyche.”
Emblazoned is in full detox from Hill$ong, now the physical symptoms have started.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
In answer to 1377… maybe encourage expression and use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (tongues, prophesy etc.) … but also take the radical step of encouraging people to actually get real about the fact life is tough and following Jesus is tough and we all fall short of God’s standards and He still love us and it’s all OK!
Maybe it’s possible???