hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
January 5th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
“If I h8 fruitbats means… avoid emotional manipulation, avoid legalistic teaching on tithing instead of a focus on whole of life stewardship, don’t have hidden financial dealings (ie keep everything audited and transparent), don’t be unapproachable and unaccountable and uncorrectable when in leadership, don’t bully staff or volunteers, don’t focus so much on the music that you lose a sense of the meaning of worship, don’t neglect the poor or the pastoral needs of your community…”
I agree…all power to him..(or her) …and it’s just a label thing, but I don’t see how it can be a pente church; you’d probably call it a mainstream church or an evangelical church…but the pente church is built on all those things.
It’s like getting an orange, and removing the peel and the orange colouring and the orange flavouring…it’s therefore no longer an orange.
Pente without the pente sounds more like what Rick Warren is doing, a closet Baptist thing in a nice auditorium.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Individual churches affiliate with denominations in part for boring pragmatic reasons… bulk insurance is cheaper, denominational marriage licences, advice (maybe a bad example in this case!!!), assistance with loans in some cases, support in looking for new ministry staff.
It might be a shame if all the … er… middle of the road charismatic evangelicals disaffiliated from the pentecostal denominations… you’d hope there’d be some prophetic voices on the inside against some of the excesses highlighted on Signposts. (Even if they don’t taste very orange-ish.)
January 5th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Any voice, prophetic or otherwise, against the excesses, and inside the system, are very badly hounded. One would have to be extremely subtle to not cop it. I point to my blog as an example.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
“In answer to 1377… maybe encourage expression and use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (tongues, prophesy etc.) … but also take the radical step of encouraging people to actually get real about the fact life is tough and following Jesus is tough and we all fall short of God’s standards and He still love us and it’s all OK!
Maybe it’s possible???”
It sounds like what Phil Baker is trying to do at Revenue.
Last Sunday he mentioned about how he was trying to position the church about halfway between a penty church..and a traditional church…to have the penty gifts without the weirdness, and to have the traditional church theology without the sit-on-your-arse-and-do-nothing mentality.
The problem with that half-arsed approach of Baker’s is it’s contradictory.
‘We’re reaching out to the poor, but they must become prosperous’ (it’s ok to be poor/it’s not ok to be poor).
‘We reach out to the lost, but they must not remain lost or return to being lost’..(if you’re lost, that’s ok we’re with you/if you’re lost, that’s not ok, we’re not with you, find your own way home, come back when you’re ready to do things our way.)
‘We’re a relaxed church, but we’re to be a hyped church’ (I’m not going to even try and explain how that contradiction works)
“We’re not afraid to talk about money, but we’re afraid to talk about money” (Don’t ask the pastor specifics about how the money is spent, or how much the pastor is earning.)
‘Come as you are, but come and be ‘excellent’ (We don’t put fat, ugly people on stage or in the guest lounge, but only in the car parking ‘ministry’)
‘It’s ok if you’re gay, but don’t be gay’ (Don’t get me started)
‘We’re a Christ-centred church, but we don’t talk about Christ’s teachings or the cross, only ‘life principles’. (Although the cross might get a mention at Christmas and Easter).
‘Be real, but you’ll need to fake being real.’
You can’t be pente and normal, because the two contradict each other to the point where any sane person’s brain starts to hurt and they leave.
The dickheads of course stay.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
“One would have to be extremely subtle to not cop it. I point to my blog as an example.”
I see the ‘negotiating with Al Qaeda’ strategy is not working quite yet.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Jesus copped a serve from the religious elite of his time Emblazoned… but change the world He did.
No matter what people say or do to you, the centre of God’s will is the only place where your soul is safe… stay true to the leading of God’s Spirit. Hang in there!
January 5th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
For those you are interested - there is an interesting critique of Hillsong in January issue of the The Briefing - a online magazine published by Matthias Media . This magazine is not really my cup of tea but its worth a look
January 5th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Janet everything you said in post #1378 is what I desire our church to be. I’m not interested in ownership of the congregation or lording it over them. In fact I desire to be a humble servant to the congregation. My job is to help them grow and develop their spiritual gifts and to help facilitate their visions for their lives and to see each of the people gaing the revelation of who they are in Christ, not to preach at them, “tickling their ears” and getting their revelations for them. Our whole focus is on worshipping God with our lives, not just our voices and seeking first His kingdom. I also encourage everyone who chooses to come to our church to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and not just blindly swallow everything we say but to check it against scripture. In short, I have unlearnt everything I learnt at my old church and am humbly relearning how to do church God’s way. Lance, I know I will make mistakes in my journey in trying to run the church the way God wants, but I am relishing the task ahead of me. Oh, and Janet, I love what you said in post # 1377. I’m so fed up with the “get saved and your life will be perfect from now on” dribble.
January 6th, 2007 at 2:23 am
I_h8_fruitbats - If your going to use Signposts as a way of building your church/ministry - then you might want to change your handle to ” I luv Fruitcakes”.
January 6th, 2007 at 2:55 am
I wish they would negotiate with al qaeda
January 6th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Thanks for your advice akevin…not interested in “building my church”…that’s God’s job. Now, if you’d give me the luxury of giving you some advice. Maybe try seeing the good in people sometimes before resorting to putting them down first. You might actually start to enjoy life!
January 6th, 2007 at 11:35 am
“Hillsong Blesses Rudd Labor
Exclusive by Luke McIlveen
THE hugely influential leader of the Hillsong Church has praised Opposition Leader Kevin Rudd’s Christian values in a sign the Labor leader is breaking through in key marginal Sydney seats.
Senior Pastor Brian Houston told The Saturday Daily Telegraph Mr Rudd’s decision to vote against human cloning legislation had impressed many Christians.
“The vote on human cloning was not along party lines so Kevin Rudd, like every other MP, could vote according to personal conviction and the considered wishes of the electorate,” Mr Houston said.
“I applaud his stance.”
While Hillsong will not endorse either Labor or the Coalition in this year’s federal election, Prime Minister John Howard will need to redouble efforts to keep the Christian vote in key seats like Greenway, Mitchell and Lindsay.
Mr Houston sent out a warning to all politicians that the ever-growing ranks of Christians in the so-called mortgage belt could not be ignored.
“I am of the opinion that it is not the role of the church to be involved in party politics but if individual Christians have a desire to contribute to the community through politics, I would encourage them to do so,” he said.
“I see absolutely no reason why Christians should be the only sector of society excluded from having a voice into the direction of our nation.”
An investigation by The Saturday Daily Telegraph into the importance of the Christian vote found both Labor and the Coalition will need to do more.
The Australian Christian Lobby’s Jim Wallace said Mr Rudd could not flaunt his Christianity without taking on difficult issues like abortion, pornography and teenage pregnancy.”
From http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21016057-5006009,00.html
January 6th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Thanks I h8 fruitbats, and good on you! You seem committed to Jesus-style leadership and Jesus-style living.
Do you feel able to share a little of your “unlearning”? Was it by studying the scriptures, or reading Christian books, or rubbing shoulders with other Christians / denominations / parachurch groups, hearing from the Holy Spirit, or all of the above?
January 6th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Hey fruitbat - smiley faces mean it is a humerous thing - so quoting you and to help you practice what you preach….
“Now, if you’d give me the luxury of giving you some advice. Maybe try seeing the good in people sometimes before resorting to putting them down first. You might actually start to enjoy life! ”
and…. my life is VERY enjoyable - you’d be amazed and I hope yours is as enjoyable too…
January 6th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Sorry akevin if I offended you…a smiley emoticon at the end of a comment that can so easily be misinterpreted is a recipe for disaster
January 6th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Janet, I am doing my unlearning by searching scripture, the leading of the Holy Spirit and through, would you believe, signposts!
As you may have seen from my first post, I spent a long time at CCCOF in various voluntary roles and saw the leadership team many times at their worst. Thankfully I never bought into a lot of the stuff that CCC holds so dear, such as tithing, unquestioning loyalty to the leadership and total commitment to “the house”. So my journey of unlearning isn’t as difficult as you might expect. I guess for me it is the whole “Holy ATM” doctrine and demanding what’s ours from God that had been so drummed into me that I am mainly dealing with. God is leading me to a place of seeking His Face instead of His Hand, as well teaching me to enter into His presence with humility, reverance and a servant heart instead of in arrogance and pride.
January 6th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
no offense taken fruit bat man
January 6th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Doing unlearning through Signposts!!!!!?
Can anything good come out of Nazareth????
January 6th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Dear Emblazoned,
As you may or may not know I’m a current Hillsonger. Whilst Hillsong has made a positive impact on many lives and has done many good things, I would agree with a number of things that you have stated on your Blog before you toned it down.
Your statement “…reasonable questioning of leadership stances is not permitted. If in Hillsong you question the Scriptural accuracy of a teaching from the pulpit, more often than not you place yourself in the firing line. You will be blacklisted as being unsupportive, and most likely you will be given some time to evaluate your attitude, but no leader will engage in healthy debate” is most certainly true. I have personally asked some doctrinal questions in the past to a few Pastors who I thought had an improper understanding of some issues. Any responses that I received seriously lacked a proper and deep scriptural grounding. I remember Neil making the following statements here on Signposts:
“Emblazoned and Foundation, I did 2 years at Hillsong College too…Everytime I pointed out an inconsistancy or a twisting of scripture I was told to see the lecturer after class. These meetings were either an exercise in changing the subject or a “Counselling session” on how to get on in Hill$ong…”
I personally believe that many of the problems that do exist within Hillsong actually stem from the top. I have noticed that there seems to be a greater fear of Brian Houston from the Pastors / staff at Hillsong than that of a healthy fear of the Lord. This can be viewed as idolatory. What I mean by this is the fact that those who know about the spiritual abuse, workplace bullying, etc are too afraid to “speak up” because they may lose their jobs. Whilst I can understand this mentality a bit, what I can’t seem to understand is the fact that as a Christian you are meant to stick up for the less fortunate, the weak, the abused, etc, not to turn a blind eye to it and stay silent for “peace sake”. This lack of action can also be viewed as “a sin of neglect”. I remember Rick Warren at the 2006 Hillsong Conference making it clear that these are the sorts of people that we are meant to be reaching out to. Personally, Hillsong Leadership is still turning a blind eye to the collateral damage that it has created and still refuses to reach out to these victims. This is clearly wrong.
Jane’s comments below ring out loud and clear on this matter.
612. jane Says:
May 31st, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Steve I’d love to sit & chat face to face with you so you could hear my tone & understand that I am not taking the mickey, but genuinely asking “where is the line where enough is enough?
I’m in contact with 3 ex HS pastors & over 6 ex staff members & all have similar tales of work place bullying, spiritual abuse & dodgy dealings.
All are dealing with pain, grief, anger & depression over what they saw, expereinced & indeed did in the name of HS.
Where is the line that says “enough”? Where people who know of this darker side either speak out or refuse to show endorsement by continuing to attend?
1 Peter 5:1-3 (Amplified Bible) states:
I WARN and counsel the elders among you (the pastors and spiritual guides of the church) as a fellow elder and as an eyewitness [called to testify] of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a sharer in the glory (the honor and splendor) that is to be revealed (disclosed, unfolded): Tend (nurture, guard, guide, and fold) the flock of God that is [your responsibility], not by coercion or constraint, but willingly; not dishonorably motivated by the advantages and profits [belonging to the office], but eagerly and cheerfully; Not domineering [as arrogant, dictatorial, and overbearing persons] over those in your charge, but being examples (patterns and models of Christian living) to the flock (the congregation).
All I say here is look at the following blog statements below and tell me has Brian Houston really followed the above scriptures ??
146. Singer Says:
February 7th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
I have been reading this forum with interest for some weeks now.
As ‘my name’ suggests, I was deeply involved with the Creative Ministries side of things at Hills CLC/Hillsong, and two other CLC churches before that.
I grew up in a christian family…got saved out the backyard during a home church service in the early 70’s when I was 9…made a public declaration of my faith at the Billy Graham Crusade in ‘79. Got involved in CLC in 1982.
When the first Hillsong album was produced in 1988 I truely believed God was doing something incredible in our lives, not only to win souls for Christ, but also to encourage and edify the body of Christ…it was exciting! I have many wonderful memories of those times.
For me, things started to ‘change’ at Hills when Howard Cargill was invited to share his ‘capital stewardship program’ with us. The whole idea behind this was for churches to be able to buy their own land and buildings without going ‘cap-in-hand’ to the banks. It required super-sacrificial giving from the congregation. I was one of several leaders and elders who were invited to a special briefing with this guy one night, to ask questions etc. I remember being concerned that some of the congregation (single mums etc) would feel pressured to ‘get with the program’. I was assured this would not happen…but I think it did. I was also required to go out to people’s homes and ‘collect’ their commitment to the building fund. I didn’t like it, but I did it.
This is where I think the whole money thing started. At the same time, the annual Hillsong conference and music albums were starting to have a big impact.
Around this time I began to feel uneasy about what was happening in church. Every aspect of the service was timed down to the last minute and, unlike before, no time was given during the service for the Holy Spirit to minister to people. There seemed to be an over emphasis on performance…how did it sound?…how did it look?
Before this post gets too long, let me tell you what happened in a nutshell….
I was so concerned about the direction of the church, I made an appointment for my ex-wife and I to see Brian Houston. When I quietly shared my concerns, BH interpreted this as opposition. He promptly called a meeting and proceeded to repeat everything I’d said to him in front of a room-full of others (without of course mentioning me by name). I felt betrayed. My ex-wife took sides with BH. I ended up aliented and very lonely. I had an affair and concieved a child out of wedlock. My wife wanted us to go for couselling at one of the previous CLC churches we attended. I agreed. They told me to abort the child because ‘it would ruin my life’. Amongst other things, they took sides and were very manipulative of me. It seemed to me that I was an embarrassment to them…and I was treated accordingly. There was no real attempt to get the root of our marriage problems. All this drove me into a deep depression. I was in therapy for the best part of two years and on anti-depressants for about 4 years.
I left my wife in family, left the church, and have been in self-imposed exile for 10 years.
I don’t sing anymore and I don’t go to church either….
This is my story…this really happened
205. Geoff Bullock Says:
February 18th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Graeme, I have asked you many times to reply to my balanced but firm replies to your posts. You have never once attempted to readdress some of your wild and unresonable assumptions as to the motives of Jane, Singer and myself. However, I will continue to give you my honesty, in the hope that your heart may be moved. The pressure on me to produce five services a Sunday, Guest Services Concerts, Christmas Spectaculars and the like was brutal and unrelenting. It broke me. It broke my marriage. It broke my first wife and our five children. it broke so many lives, and we have been trying to tell our story. On Christmas Eve 1994, I was publically abused during rehearsals for two Christmas Eve services by Brian Houston for not having enough Christmas Carols in the song list. I then led and preached at both services. Every Tuesday afternon we would have a debriefing of the previous Sunday’s services. Almost weekly the music and tech team would be pulled apart for not “getting the worship right”, or the music too loud, or the radio microphone not functioning correctly. One time Brian flew into a rage accusing the tech director of the church, who was pushed out later that year, of conducting a vendetta against Brian and his “preaching of the word” by sabotaging his radio microphone. These were not constructive criticisms, they were angry, bitter and personally abusive. I was constantly humiliated by not being tough enough and being too empathetic. On Father’s Day 1994, we had to produce two Guest Services Concerts. One at 4.00pm, and another at 6.00pm, then back it all up with a third service at 8.00pm. It was father’s day. It was ordered by Brian Houston, personally, to my face, that the choir had to be in both morning services and could not go home untill after the second service ended, which usually was about 12.30. We had rehearsals at 2.00pm. With a one and a half hour turn around, going home was impossible as so we all ate our father’s day lunch at the hall where we had our services. This was pointed out to brian. Everyone gave up their father’s day because Brian couldn’t bear having 50 or so empty choir seats during his second sermon. I don’t remember the last song that morning, nor would brian, in fact Brian woulodn’t even remember the damge he caused that day, but over a hundered musicians, tech crew and choir memebers would remember how their church would not let them celebrate father’s day with their families because we had ‘the work of the Lord” to do.
I fired drummers because they sounded too loud backstage… which is simply because of the acoustics of the backstage are, not the poor over comitted drummer.. Brian would arrive in a foul mood and demand action, immediately, sometimes with shameful emotional consequences on whoever had to be told they weren’t good enough. How many stories do you want Graeme? And to this very day, I can never ever remember one apology, one realisation that he may have overreacted, overstepped his mark… Graeme, do you have a heart, or do you simply have a book of rules that can be used to put the victims back under the heel of their spitiual abusers. I really do look forward to you exhibiting some kind of emtional courage and ghiving us some compassion. Yes, I am angry, I am hurt. My bloody wounds are bleeding again, and, ten years on, mate, I still have nightmares, violent nightmares of Brian and his henchmen. I had one last night. It is still haunting me six hours later.
Now Geoff has informed me that he has approached Brian on many occasions in the past and offered an apology. However, Brian has not reached any resolution even after all the meetings that they have had over the last 11 years, all at Geoff’s instigation.
You may ask, why am I doing this. Let me offer some sort of explaination. Paul said, “When we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate” (1 Corinthians 4:12-13). And if we can relate to our enemies that way, how much more can we handle the tough love of those who come to us with hard words for our good. I speak this way out of love. I know that the possibilities of misunderstanding and false accusation are there. Because of this, we don’t do this as often as we should. Sometimes we need to take the risks of love. We should be the freest of all people to listen to criticism and take it into account and not be wounded or self-pitying or resentful.
I would like to conclude with the following scripture below:
Matthew 18:15-17 (Amplified Bible)
If your brother wrongs you, go and show him his fault, between you and him privately. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two others, so that every word may be confirmed and upheld by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he pays no attention to them [refusing to listen and obey], tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a pagan and a tax collector.
If you want to put this onto your Blog site, please feel free to do so.
January 6th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Thank you. I was reading the whole time wondering if I could put it on my blog. i’m afraid I might not be able to do so in the most direct sense. My new method will involve asking permission from individual Hillsongers use the myspace network to see if they are interested in addressing these concerns.
I would love to meet you in person. I live in Sydney and I find it relatively easy to get to anywhere in the northern arc. Please be in touch.
January 7th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Is it just me or does anyone else (apart from Janet) feel that Lance’s understanding of what constitutes a ‘Pentecostal Church’, indicate:
• Ignorance (not always bliss)
• A desire to ‘stir the pot’ (which he does so well)
• An indication that he has been taken in by the same spin doctors he so vehemently denounces? (i.e. there concept of pentecost)
Perhaps Lance like a great many others has taken to viewing: ‘Pentecostal’ … (note large ‘P’ for the real deal) as a tag or a denominational badge etc, rather than (I believe) a descriptive of the very first Church as witnessed in the Book of Acts.
Surely none can deny that the primitive Church (again capital ‘C’’ for real deal) was Pentecostal in expression etc?
Unfortunately, all too often, the arrogance of many ‘pentecostal’ (note small ‘p’) churches (note again small ‘c’) has claimed this distinction and used it to try to beat other expressions of church into submission!
Just a thought…
Jack-of-it!
January 7th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Sounds like trying to make a distinction between the IRA and Sinn Fein.
January 7th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“• A desire to ‘stir the pot’ (which he does so well)”
Without question. It’s only through shit-stirring that one gets past all the lies, the spin and the rhetoric to the realities.
January 7th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
My point is, that what began well under the auspices of the Holy Spirit has ‘devolved’ into something that would be unrecognisable by the early Church - in fact I can almost hear Paul saying something about ‘apostasy … heresy etc.’
What many claim to be Pentecostal today; is really an aberration, when contrasted against the origins of Christianity as expressed via the ‘living organism’ which became known as Church.
But to write off ‘Pentecost’ per se or any sincere desires to achieve a truly Pentecostal Church today, I think is akin to; ‘throwing the baby out with the bathwater.’
That is not to say that the challenges to be faced in such an endeavour aren’t great … but I still believe that such a pursuit is worthwhile.
Jack-of-it!
January 7th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
I think Lance was referring to the Pentecostal denomination, not the charismatic church phenomenon, nor the attempts by many to reflect on the nature of the early church and recapture some of this dynamism.
You might be interested in the robust discussions occuring on Alan Hirsch’s blog theforgottenways about the nature of the church and mission.
January 7th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
I couldn’t agree more on that point my friend!! BTW your post on Houston and his pathetic attempts to imitate political nouse (#1392) deserves a few laps around the block - you know my views on that subject!
Jack-of-it
January 7th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Thanks Janet, I have been a long-time reader of Alan’s material and other’s of similar ilk and find that I resonate with (and am challenged by) much of what is happening in the emergent/post denominational/post institutional etc Church arena.
Whilst agreeing with the thrust of what you are saying, I’m not sure that I would be willing to give up the term ‘Pentecostal’ as a legitimate descriptive of Church life or even to try to describe it as ‘Charismatic’.
It seems to me that certain ‘labels’ as used in denominationalism have been hijacked (and corrupted in their usage) and therefore just the mention of such terms as ‘Pentecostal and Charismatic’ etc raise the ire of many.
Jack-of-it
January 8th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Latest blog posted:
http://www.myspace.com/the_emblazoned_tome
Gentle boys. Softly does it now.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:57 am
Sorry guys, false alarm. Have been struck with the futility of it all…I’ve decided to make it private. And I feel like pulling out of this whole speaking out thing. It feels like I’m wasting time and getting no where.
January 8th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Grace to you, Emblazoned. I’m sure you’ve made a few people think (even if all they’ve done so far is argue back… you’ve still planted a seed that might start putting out shoots in the future, when they observe the HS thought control police at work).
The former head honcho at C of C’s used to say: “If we don’t achieve it this decade we may the next”. Culture change is usually long, slow work… a marathon, not a sprint.
I encourage you to take this pause to take time to ask God what He is inviting you to do… and not do… and trust Him for the rest.