hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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January 8th, 2007 at 7:57 am
The last few weeks might have opened the door to talk more with your friends (I assume some of your myspace friends are real-life friends as well). In particular Will said he knew ch leaders who would be willing to talk about the issues.
Then there are times when you just sit tight and pray and watch if someone else makes the next step. (And in this era, “watching” is a great deal more widespread than it used to be - in no previous decade would I be listening to discussions of what churches in Sydney are up to).
January 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Steve/Emplazoned/Guy Sebastion (go look at his photo - have you ever sen Emblazoned and Guy in the same room? hmm? hmmm?) You have ben documenting an incredible period of growth in your own theology and understanding of Church and comunities of faith - everything ultimately is futile outside of our own relationship with God, so to that end futility is part of life - so if you are aware of that and embrace your own futlity it makes it all seem…less burdensome?
I know you will continue your own journey and whether that is to be in a public space or in private is only something you can decide - I echo janets suggestion that this time be a time of prayer for you
January 9th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
thanks. will pray.
i aint half malaysian tho. just for the record.
January 9th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
this is in reply to ‘Grace Required’ who mentioned concerns about Hawkesbury CC.
I started to write about your husband’s concerns about losing friends if you left the church and I was about to say how wrong that concern would be (I left just under four years ago, but it was at least in part a work move).
But when I started to write I realised that I was thinking of an imaginary HCC which probably only existed in my imagination. Or if it ever existed it was for a few months in 1991.
There is only one friend from HCC who I am still in contact with (and he believe he has fled to a satellite service).
My ideas of HCC are probably like slowly boiling a frog, that is to say I remember being appalled by Hills CLC when I visited some time in the early 90s. But that version of hills no longer exists and HCC is probably more cookie cutter, metrosexual boys, all (acceptable) girls identical thin blonde (dyed) things, prosperity, la la etc… than 1990s Hills.
But then if I hadn’t sat down to write this I’d probably still be living in my idealised memory of the place.
(on another note, I wonder if I know you?)
I’ve gone Bappo since moving away from Hawkesbury. I’m involved in leading what may well be one of the most dysfunctional (sometimes drunken, cigar smoking) bible studies in the country and no one at the church seems to complain that I’m an irregular at actually attending a Sunday service or that my wife hasn’t attended church since Christmas (2005). Both things which would have seen me getting a right talking to at HCC (by Sam Demoro who I never had much respect for).
That said, there are a hell of a lot of interesting people to meet around the disenfranchised fringes of churches and it is nice to talk to real people who will tell you what they think and how they feel about things, rather that giving you a rousing “every day is good with Jesus” or whatever the catch phrase is you are supposed to think.
Anyway,
Say G’day to the Woods of the Hawkesbury for me
John
January 10th, 2007 at 12:03 am
I just saw this on the Hillsong conference 2006 thread…
# 198
Lance Says:
July 20th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
We have been the frog in Hill$ong’s kettle.
and I thought I was being original
January 10th, 2007 at 12:27 am
“HCC is probably more cookie cutter, metrosexual boys…”
Look, can we back off the..hassling the metrosexual boys..thing?
Those of us who live in dull city and suburban contexts… where the most exciting part of our day is validating our multi-rider … actually enjoy the visual feast of the church twink at play.
So what if they’re dumb as a fence post?
The first hint of facial hair on a guitar-wielding 25 year old man is actually alluring to those of us without a life.
January 10th, 2007 at 12:36 am
I would stop laughing about metrosexuals except,
well I am a male librarian and as such it is hard to find any group in society which I am entitled to laugh at.
I think metrosexual Christians are the only group lower on the school playground pecking order.
January 10th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
No you’re wrong ADHD - librarians - especially male ones are te lowest of the low - slimiest of the slime, dorkiest of the dorky and unworthy of even opening the lock attached to the door that leads into the hall that adjoins the ballroom off which the cleaning cupboard of knowledge resides…that jack-of-it built!!!
January 10th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
lowest form of fungoidal life capable of existing on the scum around the anus of a prosperity preacher?
January 11th, 2007 at 6:52 am
…on a slightly different note, did anyone see “Decadence” on SBS last night featuring none other than Pastor Brian Houston? The whole series has been fantastic but last night’s episode particularly good dealing with faith and spirituality.
“Join Pria Viswalingam in this new six-part series as he considers whether we are now completely bogged down in a mire of meaningless self-indulgence. In the final episode of the series, Pria looks at the shallowness and permissiveness of modern society, and the loss of traditional values, morals and structure. Several individuals, including Petrea King, Dr David Tracey and Pastor Brian Houston, discuss how Australian society has been affected by this lack of faith.”
January 11th, 2007 at 7:55 am
I did happen to see it. He is on for 2 seconds yet gets listed in the blurb about the show. Cardinal Pell and Archbishop Jensen were actually spoken to more then him, I am sure that is becuase they actually had something worthwhile to say
January 11th, 2007 at 8:26 am
When I hear Brian Houston banging on about how Hillsong is “relevant” and hence popular, I can’t help but think about this scripture.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
January 11th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Hillsong isn’t even that relevant. It’s appeal is mostly to Christians.
“Archbishop Jensen … actually had something worthwhile to say”
No comment.
January 11th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Brian Houston was a panellist on Geoffrey Robertson’s “Hypothetical” a while back as well on the subject of terrorism. I was really surprised (well, not that surprised i guess) about how out of depth & uncomfortable he was amongst his peers when called upon to speak about anything other than prosperous christianity. Any other subject & his confidence goes out the window. He said some things that were almost childish & sat there most of the time with a silly childish grin. He may be a driven powerhouse but i suspect that this is because in some ways he is just an unconflicted simpleton with direct relevance only to the pond of his own creation (Australian “contemporary” christianity, specifically the AOG).
Have a read yourself if keen http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1852.asp
Hillsong’s relevance? Here is what Hillsong is in actuality & who it is relevant to : - it is a ministry to suburban middle-class aspirationals who would like to be entrepeneurs, people who want to be wealthier than their parents were. People who want to own a home, a business & put their kids through private school & university. People who want their kids to be more popular & successful than they were.
In the same way other ministries help certain groups in society, this is the punter profile of Hillsong. Middle-class trashies who are naive enough to think that emotional worship & Brian’s feelgood buzzwords are enough to push them to the next level in life. They honestly think Hillsong wants them to be as successful & financially independent as it’s own management. How dumb is that?
These people are the exact same social demographic that would fall for Amway, NutraLife, Herbalife etc. Hillsong is the preferred option because by association punters can identify as spiritually & morally superior as well.
As Rev Dr David Millikan BA, BD. PhD says, it is not the lower classes or wealthy classes who fall for cults or cult-like organisations, both are too smart & self preserving, it is only the middle classes aspiring to feel more succesful.
January 11th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Great post Reve, spot on.
“I was really surprised (well, not that surprised i guess) about how out of depth & uncomfortable he was amongst his peers”
Does that include Catriona Rowntree?
January 11th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Heh Heh,
No i don’t think Rowntree is any great intellect either. In that sense they probably really are peers.
;o)
January 11th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Does that include Catriona Rowntree?
Hell yes, she is more his peer than Cardinal Pell or Archbishop Jensen. They are men who have studied the scripture to find out what is says (as opposed to trying to make it fit their reality one sentence at a time)
.
He is a vapid, commercial entertainer pandering to people who wish they were rich or wish they were on holiday in the tropics…
But whereas Rowntree is honest about how much the holiday will cost Houston is telling you it’s going to appear by magic if you only love God enough.
January 11th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Please leave Catriona out of this, guys. I think she is lovely.
January 11th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Alan Hirsch has a blog about this one:
My take on a combination of recent research in Australia conducted indicates that about 10-15% of our population is attracted to what we can call the contemporary church growth model. In other words, this model has significant ‘market appeal’ to about 12% of our population. The more successful forms of this model tend to be large, highly professionalized, overwhelmingly middle-class, and express themselves culturally using contemporary, ‘seeker friendly’, language and middle-of-the-road music forms. They structure themselves around “family ministry” and therefore offer multigenerational services. Demographically speaking they tend to cater largely for what might be called the ‘family-values segment’—good, solid, well-educated, citizens who don’t abuse their kids, who pay their taxes, and who live largely what can be called a suburban lifestyle.
Find the whole discussion at http://www.theforgottenways.org/blog/96
How can any church really claim to be “relevent” if they are only reaching such as small percentage of the population?
January 11th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
I just went to town with a stream of consciousness ranting manifesto on my blog - all inspired by this thread and an off list conversation I’ve been having with another poster.
I’ve tidied some of it up a bit and thought I’d post it here, not because it will add to the debate per se, but because …
I am constantly meeting people who have been completely fucked over by organised religion while at the same time, I am surrounded by people who use their Christianity to justify all sorts of social and societal practices which have nothing at all to do with anything Jesus is ever reported to have said (no matter which translation you use).
For example, I was having a discussion on Christianity and the political sphere and I happened to mention the Democracy is not a biblical principle. There were shocked looks from some, but I had one person argue with me.
The argument isn’t the problem (as I see it) the problem is that people just accept the current socio-political norms and assume that they are Christian. They don’t think about the realities of things, in Australia we get force fed enough American bullshit that it just becomes part of the air you breathe and fluffy thinking (republican = God, Democrat = soul eating sodomites) eases its way into our minds and bypasses critical thinking.
And do middle Australian Christians ever do any critical thinking? There are lots of places within Christianity where thinking critically is seen as being tantamount to denying the existence of God. Moreover, in the Pentecostal church as it exists at the moment (mega-church style) there is a determined and deliberate attempt by the leaders to suppress critical thinking. Teaching such as; follow the man of God and let him decide what’s right and wrong or the social aspect where those who think critically are not given opportunities to lead small groups let alone to speak from the pulpit.
While Australia doesn’t seem to be breeding Christians as think as many of those in American mega churches, we are following hot on their heels copying all of their marketing and brand positioning.
Think about it folks, brand identity, billboards, Pastors (not theologians) who have certificates in Biblical Leadership, rather than Degrees in Theology. Morons who act more like motivational speakers than ministers, with Doctorates that they bought from fourth rate American online Bible Colleges. And Christians are flocking to that mindless bullshit because it is ‘relevant’ and ‘meets me where I’m at’.
lets try and fit that into this verse (which Abby posted this morning).
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Tim 4: 3-4.
People want to have Brian Houston tell them that they too will be able to afford $2000 silk ties, $8000 racing bikes and a Harley for when they feel like cutting loose. Why, because it is a church that meets them where they’re at by not making them feel bad about their consumerist overindulged western lifestyle and beyond that, it celebrates this and promises supernatural intervention to increase your wealth if you follow the magic formula.
Because the alternative would be listening to Tim Costello telling you that you are part of a society which is raping the world and that your excess is not God’s gift. Some good people are poor, some evil men are rich and that there is no God Given get rich quick scheme and there is on earth no God given method to even the playing field. After all even Solomon (covered in fine silks and sitting in his palace didn’t believe he had done anything to deserve his position) If I may paraphrase Ecclesiastes. All is vanity, we’re all going to die, shit happens, enjoy what you eat and drink, enjoy being young - because being old sucks, God isn’t going to fix all your problems.
January 11th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
“in the Pentecostal church as it exists at the moment (mega-church style) there is a determined and deliberate attempt by the leaders to suppress critical thinking.”
Precisely.
Great post.
And thanks for the link jewel, very interesting stuff.
January 12th, 2007 at 2:07 am
I would not question Catriona Rowntree’s intellect. She’s quite sharp.
January 12th, 2007 at 8:39 am
as a tack
January 12th, 2007 at 9:01 am
“in the Pentecostal church as it exists at the moment (mega-church style) there is a determined and deliberate attempt by the leaders to suppress critical thinking.”
To most of these leaders, critical thinking is an unknown. Any difference of opinion or questioning perceived as a threat to leadership, to be dealt with swiftly, so that we are all “on the same page”.
January 12th, 2007 at 11:30 am
I’ve taken to debating Hillsong on Youtube. Haha.
January 12th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
How do you debate someone by YouTube? How do they/you retaliate?
January 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Lies & half-truths rom the Phenomema website http://www.phenomena.org.au
“Pat Mesiti is an international evangelist and teacher. He travels globally addressing some of the world’s most influential businesses, corporate meetings and churches, empowering them to prosper and influence their community.
Pat was on the executive team for Hillsong Australia for 18 years, winning over 50 thousand souls for Christ annually. Pat was the founder and Director of Youth Alive, attracting crowds of over 15 000 people at each event. His books have sold over 700 000 copies, and his cds have sold over two million copies”
“Pat was on the executive team for Hillsong Australia for 18 years”
FACT: Pat liked prostitutes, lost his wife & lost no time finding a new one. That’s why he’s not still there now.
“winning over 50 thousand souls for Christ annually”
FACT: No, he danced around & screamed & emotionally manipulated on stage, volunteer counsellors took phone numbers after the altar call & the “new souls” were never followed up or placed in local appropriate churches. You would not know whether any of them were still christians today or not, Pat. It was all for show.
“Pat was the founder and Director of Youth Alive”
FACT: Outright lie Pat, Youth Alive was founded by a man who is now publicly gay & you havent got the guts to admit he was once your mentor & discipler, nor do you have the character to return his calls.
“His books have sold over 700 000 copies, and his cds have sold over two million copies”
FACT: No disclosure is made as to how many of these publications had Christian content or were sold to Christians, Pat is a secular motivational speaker, why should that be impressive to christians?
After all he’s been through, his redemptive moment has still not come.
January 12th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Sorry, it was from this website http://www.phenomena.org.au/
January 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
How about this from http://www.mesiti.com talking about his childhood and upbringing.
“Pat Mesiti had a very violent home life. Pat reflects that “growing up in this kind of environment robs you of security and a sense of self-respect. Not only that, it makes you very angry. At your parents, your world and yourself”.
By the time Pat Mesiti was in his teens the violence and drinking at home had worsened. This kind of upbringing creates a lot of negative attitudes, and believe me, Pat had plenty. He reacted by becoming angry and violent. Some people said it was a stage he was going through. Others just pointed and blamed his family.
Breaking Out
Pat Mesiti had every reason to accept this as “his lot in life”. But he saw what was going on around him and had a pretty good idea of where it was going to take him. That caused Pat to make the decision to “break out”. “I broke out because I didn’t want to be a victim of my own circumstances”.
Since Pat Mesiti made this decision he has turned his life around completely. From growing up in a violent alcoholic family, he has gone to raise his own in a loving, nurturing environment.”
Sorry??????? Since when is getting caught with prostitutes and losing your marriage and ministry part of a “loving, nurturing environment”???????????????
I also laugh when I read websites that refer to people being “proffessional”. Hilarious.
January 12th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Good old Phenomena. I remember back when I was all about helping them. I was “awesome” and “phenomenal” when I overworked myself. When I made any mention of wanting a break, or not wanting to give 110% I was treated like shit.
Yeah… this is my 2nd year of not going to Phenomena… I think I’ll spend the week with people with real problems, rather than the suburbanite kids who are overly spoiled and ego- centric.