hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
January 16th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
(The following carries a ‘what would I know..I’m a homo’ disclaimer)
Faith is an initiative of God.
We can’t manufacture or boost our own faith. We can only embrace the gift of faith given by God.
The faith, that is a gift from God, was signed, sealed and delivered in a cosmic pre-nuptial agreement formalised through the shedding of Christ’s blood as the complete atonement for the sins of those with a faith..gifted by God.
How we experience that faith from day to day and year to year is largely immaterial, once the contract of justification was completed in the believer’s life through an acknowledgement of one’s own sinfulness and an agreement to accept unity with Christ.
So you’re stuck with it.
The Christian faith is not a life of whipping up enough religious fervour to appease a deity, but a life of coming to terms with your role in a divinely arranged marriage to a partner who’s staunchly opposed to divorce.
January 16th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Join the ranks of the “love Jesus hate the Institution” emblazoned. Pretty depressing but now followed in epidemic proportions.
My help comes from reading a gospel through from first to last chapter once a month and just trying to focus on who the man Jesus was and trying to be like him. I reckon he hates the institutionalised church. My real church is a small group of people who I can laugh with, cry with, worship with, learn from and openly fart in their presence and then rate them out of 10. My best mate is a heathen undercover cop. He loves me and I love him. He’s part of my “church”. I try to live by the community described in Acts 2 as best I can but it’s tough these days. I reckon the Body is in crisis. That’s why the glitz and glam and pezzaz of the Hillsongs and CCC’s get a following … where else is there to go ? I find people default to HS because they’ve tried everywhere else and been disappointed.
God what a sorry state we are in.
January 16th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Lance, really well said my friend.
I have been out of Hill$ong for 10 months now.
I had 3 weeks off church and then spent 3 Sundays in a local AOG.
I have not attended a church since!
I do miss the contact with other Christians but I also don’t miss the duplicity of some people in the church….Hill$ong in particular. I can’t find another church because they all seem to be infected by Hill$ong crappy songs or format or tithing. If I ever step foot back in a church it may well be (like GB) a catholic church for that reason…but i can’t handle a lot of their beliefs!
I never really had a problem with my relationship with God though. Because Emblazoned that’s what I think you are talking about when you say “Faith”. I have seen my relationship with God as something completely separate from church for a long time…maybe I should tell you about my past experience with divorce and NSW Churches of Christ in the late 1980’s….
God and me have a father son kind of relationship where we are best friends who do everything together.
Sure I’m not in a church but God still loves me, I try to be kind to people, I try to do the right thing…whatever that is…
I talk to him from time to time…sometimes a lot…sometimes not for a while.
I always feel His presence!
I don’t read the bible much these days but i have read it a lot in the past 30 years. And I do believe that God mines that gold that you store up in your heart.
My trouble has been unweaving the web or lies, half truths and deceptions that Hill$ong bashed into me and reevaluating what I actually believe. Some times i do that publically here…some times I just lurk here…sometimes I ponder by myself.
Does that help?….I am just a hetro…
January 16th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I was just thinking today….the church doesn’t need another conference on how to do church ‘better’…it needs a conference on its beliefs and its sub-beliefs (the beliefs that influence their Christian beliefs..but they just assume to be correct beliefs about life)..
Do we believe that our faith is divinely-inspired or self-generated?
Do we believe ‘God helps those who help themselves’ or unmerited grace?
Do we believe God created a universe that goes on forever, or if you travelled far enough you’d eventually hit a black wall - Truman Show-style?
They’re the great questions that excite and inspire faith.
With something like Hill$ong, there’s no mystery, no great questions. All the things that ‘matter’ in life at Hill$ong can be summed up in 20 answers, revolving around ‘be awesome, be excellent and be on fire.’
That’s it?
Hitchhikers’ Guide to The Galaxy’s ..Meaning Of Life = 42 …starts to look like an inviting alternative compared to Hill$ong’s Meaning of Life on 3 teaching CD’s (plus bonus worship CD for the same price).
That’s why I think the blogger who recently went to Hill$ong was bored, because there’s no deep awe-inspiring mystery, no great questions, just some lame pissweak motivation techniques and 15 different versions of the same song from the worship team.
At least the people who designed cathedrals had a bit of imagination. A few strange-looking stone beasts (the statues, not the presiding ministers).
What’s meant to inspire your deep-felt sense of awe and wonder at Hill$ong?
A cup of Gloria Friggin’ Jeans coffee and a fake smile?
Woop dee do.
Here’s an idea for Hill$ong.
How about a church that digs into the great questions of life and faith and inspires its people to do so..instead of presenting pre-packaged ration packs of dehydrated spiritual food…personally rehydrated by Brian Houston pissing on it to make it almost edible?
January 16th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
And that’s one thing that should be emphasised about Hill$ong.
For a church that claims that it thinks big - challenges paradigms/mindsets..blah blah blah…its package of beliefs is incredibly small.
CCC has a smaller package still….while Phil Baker’s Revenue church has a broader package of beliefs than Hill$ong and CCC…but not by much.
I’ve noticed Baker keeps re-presenting the same pre-packaged sets of teaching every 6-18 months.
It’s very very small thinking, and it works because most Christians (and pastors) are very very small thinkers.
They’ve got their daily devotions book and their Rebecca St. James CD and their job packing up the chairs after church..and they’re happy.
January 17th, 2007 at 5:45 am
“My Christian faith is really struggling”
Or maybe it’s just changing shape.
Maybe you’re detoxing.
Maybe God is actually in the doubts and the questions.
Maybe God isn’t nearly as legalistic as you think.
Maybe the dross is being peeled away leaving you with just the gold. Painful process.
Maybe you can give up trusting in your own efforts to reach God and trust in His grace.
Maybe you thought you needed the institutional church, when what your heart really hungered for was Jesus Himself. Who is as near as your breath.
January 17th, 2007 at 7:01 am
“Maybe you thought you needed the institutional church, when what your heart really hungered for was Jesus Himself. Who is as near as your breath.”
Beautiful post Janet.
Amen
January 17th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Excellent Point Lance:
January 17th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Perphaps what the Church needs to begin with is a conference on the “Trinity”!
January 17th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Not sure if this will help others … but it certainly helped me in the early days of my own searching … doubting … wrestling … leaving … detoxing etc.
Now having (finally) left the AOG after two decades as a Senior Minister(?) and having recently pioneered two ‘House Churches’, I am freer than ever in my relationship with Christ AND others. But, the journey is NOT easy (and shouldn’t be) but WHAT a journey!!
The guy who wrote the following article is well into his 80’s and has become a good, albeit long distance, friend (lives in New Zealand).
WHAT IS THE CHURCH?
Was one to ask that question “What is the Church?” of a group of people, there would, I am sure be a dauntingly varied series of answers given. From the conflicting and confusing definitions and descriptions which would emerge how can we safely arrive at the truth? There is but one sure way, and that is to return to those to whom were given the initial revelation of God’s plan, and to find out what they say. Chief among these would be, without doubt, the apostle Paul. His own testimony is very clear. He speaks of a double ministry for which he was chosen of God.
Firstly he was appointed to preach the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ, and secondly his task was to reveal the true nature and purpose of what he frequently calls “The Church of God” The relevant Scriptures are Ephesians 3:7-10 and Colossians 1:24-29. In the former passage he speaks of preaching to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and then goes on to say that his next purpose is to “make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.”
In the Colossians passage he says, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, that is the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office (or stewardship) which was given to me for you to make the word of God fully known.”
Any definition of what the church is should therefore be in accord with the teachings of the great apostle, to whom was entrusted the first revelation of God’s thought concerning His church.
Recently I have been culling my library, sorting out what I want to keep and what I can discard. A little paperback entitled “Invitation to Pilgrimage” nearly went into the discard box, but something made me hold it back to read it again after the many years since I first bought it. It was written by an eminent theologian of the Church of Scotland, John Baillie, and it was his attempt to present the Christian faith to his academic colleagues who were not believers. I found much of profit in the entire book, but it was in the last chapter, “Invitation to Church” that I found a passage which thrilled my heart with its ring of truth, and with its harmony with all that Paul and other New Testament writers taught us about the church.
Here is the passage:
“The Christian Church is neither a local thing, nor a human thing, but is universal and divine. It has nothing to do with place or race, nor is it an association created by men for their own purposes. The Church is a divine society, created by God Himself; a society to which men are elected, not by human vote, but by the grace of God; a society whose one condition of membership is faith in God’s forgiving love. It is indeed a human society in that its members are men and women, but it is a divine society in that it’s Head, on whom all its life depends, is the Son of God.”
For many days I kept reading again and again that amazing definition, and thinking about what it really means to walk in the truth of it. We have all seen on TV those astonishing pictures of how explosive experts bring down huge blocks of flats or towering chimneys by blowing up the foundations and causing the whole structures to crash to the ground. If we really embrace the truth of John Baillie’s definition we will find that it is like those charges of explosives. It will bring down in a heap of dust and rubble much of what men believe is the Church today.
The astonishing paradox is, that the man who wrote those radical words, was himself deeply and fully involved in a massive religious institution, with all the marks of what he himself calls “an association created by men for their own purposes”. Such an institution is the antithesis of what he defines the Church to be. Yet, for all his formidable intellect, academic distinctions, and undoubted spiritual insights he seems unable to perceive the clear implications of his statement. How can we explain such a paradox?
As I thought about that question, I had to acknowledge that for far too many long I had been in the same situation. I would have given lip service to the definition, while remaining blind to all it implies. It required the explosive of revelation from the Holy Spirit to bring down the entrenched strongholds in my mind of traditional views of the Church, and to begin to raise up, in their stead, God’s view.
What a day it was when that happened to me, when, as it were, the moment of detonation arrived, and I began to see and understand for the first time something of the wonder of the Church as the Father intends it to be, and I walked away for ever from the rubble and dust of the now-exploded old conceptions to which I had clung for so long.
“Many have gone back, because they are afraid of looking at things from God’s stand-point. The crisis comes spiritually when a man has to emerge a bit farther on than the creed he has accepted.” This perceptive word from Oswald Chambers may apply to many today in regard to the Church. More than one person has said to me, when I have explained why it is we are walking free of involvement with institutional church, “I know that what you are saying is true, BUT!” What follows the “but” varies, but it all boils down to that fear of abandoning man’s way of looking at things and seeing things from God’s view-point. They draw back from that crisis which will move them on beyond their present creed.
“And as He came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, ‘Look Teacher, what wonderful stones, what wonderful buildings!’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone standing upon another that will not be thrown down.’ ” (Mark 13:1-2) Do we realise that this prophetic word of Jesus applies not only to what happened in Jerusalem, when the Romans sacked the city in A.D.70, but also to every Christian institution, organisation and denomination set up by men.
On that great day of the “Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet Him” all the massive religious bureaucracies and hierarchies will be seen as irrelevant and will cease to be. All the huge investments in buildings and plant will be left behind. Only that divine society whose life depends on its head the Lord Jesus Christ will remain. Our only assembling on that day will be to meet HIM. If then, these things are destined to be brought to an end, why do we so firmly cling to them now?
This leads me to share with you another quotation, this time from one of the great teachers of the early Brethren movement C.H. Macintosh. What he says underlines and reinforces the more concise and compressed definition of Church we have been considering.
“We must remember that it is to a living Christ in heaven that believers are gathered by the Holy Ghost. It is with a living Head we are connected — to a “Living stone” we have come. He is our centre. Having found peace through His blood, we own Him as our grand gathering-point and connecting link. ‘Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.’ (Matthew 18:20)
The Holy Ghost is the only gatherer; Christ Himself is the only object to which we are gathered; and our assembly, when thus convened is to be characterised by holiness, so that the Lord our God may dwell amongst us. The Holy Ghost can only gather to Christ. He cannot gather to a system, a name, a doctrine, or an ordinance. He gathers to a person and that person is a glorified Christ in heaven. This must stamp a peculiar character on God’s assembly. Men may associate on any ground, round any centre, or for any object they please, but, when the Holy Ghost associates, it is on the ground of an accomplished redemption, around the person of Christ, in order to form a holy dwelling place for God.”
A prominent Christian publication in New Zealand has recently published a series of articles on “Church Leavers”, people who have stopped going to church and are no longer involved with institutional Christendom, but have not abandoned the faith. I am wondering, however, whether it is not those clinging to denominations and institutions who are the real “Church leavers”, while those brave enough to venture forth trusting in the reality of the divine society, created by God Himself, and drawing its life from the Head, the Lord Jesus Christ and joined together by the Holy Spirit, are “Church discoverers.”
If I have truly been, as John Baillie puts it, “Elected to this society not by human vote but by the grace of God”, and if the ground of my membership is “Faith in God’s forgiving love”, then I am indissolubly incorporated in God’s Church. I belong to “The assembly of the first-born, who are enrolled in heaven” (Hebrews 12:23) The Church is not some organisation which I may of my own will and choice join. To God’s Church I have to be joined by an act of God, to be “baptised by the one Spirit into the one body.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
A few weeks ago I read again that wonderful book “Pilgrim’s Progress”, in which John Bunyan so vividly portrays the journey of “Christian” from the City of Destruction to The Celestial City. It struck me on this reading, that, in all his journey, not once did Bunyan make him go to church. Yes, he got to heaven without “going to church”!! But, from the moment that his heavy burden of sin rolled from his shoulders, “Christian” was in the Church, and he had fellowship, not in organised meetings but along the way with fellow pilgrims.
I ask, is not that maybe the way God really meant it to be? Is there not a way of Church totally unlike what we have come to know from the religious organisations to which we have belonged, a way that does not require huge investments in buildings and plant, which does not require organisational bureaucracies to sustain it, nor does it depend on humanly appointed hierarchies of leadership? If John Baillie’s definition of Church, and C.H. Macintosh’s insights correctly reflect New Testament teaching, then there is such a way.
This message is penned with a double purpose. It is my prayer that, firstly, it will be an encouragement to those who have in the spirit seen and embraced the promise of such a radically different way, a “better country, that is a heavenly one” to press on in their pilgrimage, sustained by the assurance that follows, “Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a city.” (See Hebrews 11:13-16)
My second purpose is to challenge others to go to the great New Testament passages concerning the Church, and to test these statements of Prof. Baillie and C.H. Macintosh in the light of God’s word., and then to take before the Lord the crucial question, “What is the Church”, waiting on Him for a clear answer, and being willing to see things from Father’s point of view, ready to emerge beyond what you have hitherto believed.
If you respond to that challenge and join the company of pilgrims who are “Church discoverers” be prepared for the cost, a cost unforgettably expressed in these further words of Oswald Chambers:
“Do you continue to go with Jesus? The way lies through Gethsemane, through the city gate, outside the camp; the way lies alone, and the way lies until there is no trace of a footstep left, only the voice, ‘Follow Me.’ “
January 17th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
This is Jack’s isn’t it? I recommended his webiste early last year. I have met him - lovely man.
January 17th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Yes … this is Jack’s site. You are right he and Margaret are wonderful people and good friends. Spoke to Jack recently … keep praying for Margaret.
January 17th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Jack-of-it,
any chance you mind you could drop me a line please on writergirl369@hotmail.com ?
Ta
January 17th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Sure … be happy to.
January 17th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Emblazoned… I did think you might be after something practical following my other post.
I have found having a spiritual director helpful… someone who is able to listen and help you to reflect on how God is at work in your life.
I don’t know how to track one down in Sydney… any ideas from the Sydneysiders out there?
Maybe journeying with some of the Forge people who are asking similar questions to you. Try their website… or I’m sure the Rev could give you pointers if you’re interested. In an ideal world, I think the journey of faith is best made with a body of like minded believers.
January 17th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Emblazoned,
You said that you are struggling in your Christian faith at he momemnt. I have wanted to answer you but I feel inadequate as I am struggling too at times - for similar reasons. I wanted to encourage you to keep going but then I thought how others here are far better at that than me. So I thought I’d share from one of the best things I have read lately, that has been an encouragement to me. It is an allegory called “So You Don’t Want to Go to Church Anymore” it can be read online at http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html
These are two quotes that have stayed with me from it -
(1) “Just consider that you’ve gotten it backwards. No church model will produce God’s life in you. It works the other way around. Our life in God, shared together, expresses itself as the church. It is the overflow of his life in us. You can tinker with church principles forever and still miss out on what it means to live deeply in Father’s love and know how to share it with others.”
and
(2) “It [church] can look like a hundred different things because Father is so creative. Try to copy any of them and you’ll find it turns lifeless and empty after the initial excitement of starting something new fades away. The church thrives where people are focused on Jesus, not where they are focused on church.
This is a great time to learn to enjoy him together. Just keep living, loving and listening and he will lead you to whatever expression of church life best fits his plans. Don’t be concerned if it’s nothing you can point to and say, ‘that is the church’. You are the church. Don’t be afraid to live in that reality.”
Thinking of you in Jesus
Grace
January 17th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Another thought perhaps is to pose the questin to yourself - “Exactly what would be wrong if for a season you didn;t go to church - can you experienceGod and commune with te saints in ways outside of te institutinal church - I strongly urge you to try a smaller alternative type of faith community - If you can stand te travel Kevin Crouse runs a cafe i Parramatta called Mars hill cafe and they have a group (Sacred Spaces) that meets on a Sunday morning - there’s the baptist 2010 project in Surry Hills - both these and other grass roots level comunities will bring you into contact with people whoa r ereal and are searching themselves - you would gain a lot and I think you have a lot to offer them as well.
I hope all is getting there for you
January 17th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Oh Emblazoned…
I feel for you, I really do. And I hope that what I’m about to write isn’t distorted by its passage through cyberspace so that it comes across as cliched platitudes. It would be so much easier to say in person, for you’d be able to see my expressions, hear my voice…and probably pick up that I can be highly sceptical of anything miraculous!
The multitude of responses since you posted your question demonstrate the extent to which people on Signposts - people you’ve never met you in real life - care about you, and where you’re at, and what you’re experiencing. God is in that.
I’m forced to resort to my own experience - there have been times when I have literally been screaming out, where I’ve had tears running down my face and I’ve been hanging on to the last shred of my faith for dear life. I’ve questioned things to the extent that I don’t feel I can justify my faith any more. And when I’ve been there, I’ve found myself crying out to God to save me, to save my faith somehow.
And it’s been those few occasions in my life when I’ve had experiences so bizarre that…well, I’ve chosen to believe they were of God. I’ve often wondered whether they’ve occurred then because it’s only when I’m at the end of my tether that I’m able to let go and genuinely rest in the arms of our Creator.
I’m sending virtual hugs your way…
January 17th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
66 After this a lot of his disciples left. They no longer wanted to be associated with him. 67 Then Jesus gave the Twelve their chance: “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Peter replied, “Master, to whom would we go? You have the words of real life, eternal life. 69 We’ve already committed ourselves, confident that you are the Holy One of God.”
John 6:66-69 (MSG)
January 18th, 2007 at 12:30 am
This is an exercise in futility but here goes.
Why is it a futile exercise? It shouldn’t be a futile exercise, but because of an existing double standard, it’s a futile exercise.
If an Anglican or a Uniting or a Churches of Christ minister was found to be knowingly promoting themselves using fake and/or fraudulent credentials, we’d be shocked and horrified. We’d be asking “who’s in charge here? I want to know who’s in charge.”
But if someone from the pentecostal/charismatic stream of thinking and teaching knowingly uses fake/fraudulent credentials….most of us are like..”meh……next? What do you expect?”
So there’s a double standard in Christendom that makes this post futile and completely pointless, but sometimes things just have to be said, just so that all the facts are on the table, even though the facts are meaningless to most Christians who are quite content with the gospel according to the Koorong catalogue.
You may or may not be aware of ‘Dr’ Joyce Meyer.
“Upcoming guest speakers. January 21. Joyce Meyer is one of the world’s leading practical Bible teachers and is a great friend of Hillsong Church. Through Joyce Meyer Ministries, her television and radio programes and books she has helped millions of people find hope and restoration through Jesus Christ. A world recognised teacher and minister, recently, Time magazine selected Joyce as one of the most influential evangelical leaders in America.”
Joyce Meyer is also putting in an appearance at CCC Oxford Falls this weekend.
Meyer has her critics and has been the subject of media scrutiny.
http://www.trinityfi.org/press/JoyceMeyer2.html
“Meyer’s rough, homespun south St. Louis drawl thundered out to her audience, which suddenly had become silent and still.
To give is godly, she said. Never fear giving too much in the name of God, even if it means sacrificing dinners out during the three-day conference. Fear, she said, is the work of the devil.
She lectured for nearly an hour before ending with the same plea she’d been delivering for a decade: “Make your checks payable to Joyce Meyer Ministries/Life in the Word. And million is spelled M-I-L-L-I-O-N.”
Many in the crowd flipped open their wallets or pulled out their checkbooks.
No one came forth with a million dollars that day in June. But in September, the ministry says, an East Coast woman gave stock worth that amount. Meyer then asked for more.
“I didn’t have that thing for five minutes and I said, ‘OK, God. Next I’ll take $5 million,’” Meyer later told an audience in Tampa.”
This declaration is made on Joyce Meyer’s website.
http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/FAQ/
“Joyce holds an earned PhD in theology from Life Christian University in Tampa, Florida; an honorary doctorate in divinity from Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma; and an honorary doctorate in sacred theology from Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.”
First of all let’s deal with the honorary doctorates.
There are honorary doctorates……..
“The University of Cambridge has been conferring honorary degrees for some 500 years. One of the earliest recorded ceremonies was in 1493, when the University honoured the poet John Skelton. An honorary degree is the highest accolade the University can give……
……In more recent years, those honoured include:
World leaders
Dr Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of India
President Cardoso of Brazil
President Dae-Jung of the Republic of Korea
Chancellor Kohl
Nelson Mandela
President Robinson of Ireland
President Sharma of India
King and Queen of Spain
Business and industry
Dr John Bradfield
Sir Adrian Cadbury
Sir John Harvey-Jones
Sir Alistair Pilkington
Gordon Moore
Scientists
David Attenborough
Jocelyn Bell Burnell
Stephen Hawking
Nevill Mott
Frederick Sanger
James Watson
Religion
Cardinal Hume
Archbishop Runcie
Mother Teresa
Chief Rabbi Dr Jonathan Sacks
Bishop of Liverpool, David Sheppard
Archbishop Desmond Tutu
Archbishop of Liverpool, Derek Worlock
Arts
Dame Ninette de Valois
Nadine Gordimer
Sir Alec Guinness
Ted Hughes
Dame Iris Murdoch
V.S. Naipaul
Elizabeth Schwarzkopf
Dame Maggie Smith
Dame Kiri Te Kanawa”
And….there are honorary doctorates….
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,1813798,00.html
“The Bee Gees’ Robin and Barry Gibb are honorary doctors of music at the University of Manchester, sharing their degree with their late brother Maurice. The titles are revealing: a Doctor of Letters is usually accorded to arty types or entertainers; when Kofi Annan received his honorary doctorate from Oxford they made him a doctor of civil law - there is method in the honorary madness. There is, however, only one Honorary Doctorate in Amphibious Studies: it was awarded to Kermit the Frog in 1996 by Long Island’s Southampton College (whatever that is)……….
…….Consider what happened in Melbourne in May 1986 when Prince Philip arrived to launch Monash University’s 25th anniversary celebrations and pick up an honorary science degree. Two protesters interrupted the ceremony, calling the prince a “parasite” for accepting the degree. Members of the Monash Association of Students had earlier given a 21-month-old chihuahua an honorary science degree. A spokesman said the dog had as much right to a degree as the duke. Other suggested it had much more.”
So, if you’re a celebrity for long enough, some university will give you an honorary degree ..
“In 2002, for example, the University of Wolverhampton gave honorary degrees to members of Slade.”
So good luck to Joyce. She was given honorary doctorates by Oral Roberts University (*cough”) and Grand Canyon University in Phoenix.
Joyce joins others with high academic standing from Grand Canyon University.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3686547.stm
“Rock star Alice Cooper is to be awarded with an honorary degree in the US.
The singer - whose hits include chart-topper School’s Out - will gain the honour in a ceremony at the Grand Canyon University on Saturday.
Cooper , whose other hits include Poison, has given financial support to the college, officials said.
His stage shows are well-known for being gruesome and theatrical, but in Phoenix, Arizona he is recognised as a quiet family man and baseball coach.”
Which brings us to the third degree cited by Meyer as academic achievements ..the ‘earned’ PHD in theology from ‘Life Christian University’ in Florida….which lists as its address….
“410 Chapman Rd East, Lutz, Florida”
Also at 410 Chapman Rd East, Lutz, Florida is the River Of Life Church.
http://www.riveroflife-lutz.org/About%20Us.html
Yes, I know from the picture on that link it looks like just a church hall with an administration area, but I’m sure there’s a university campus somewhere out the back behind all those trees.
And it must be a real university, because here are pictures of plenty of high profile Christian speakers receiving their doctorates; Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne, Gloria and Kenneth Copeland, Robb Thompson….
http://www.lcus.edu/main2.htm
Most of them pictured accepting a ‘PHD in Theology’.
Wow, they must be smart.
Well, perhaps not.
Checking the required accreditation of ‘Life Christian University’..one finds…
http://www.lcus.edu/faith2.htm
“LCU is a member of the Accrediting Commission International, the world’s largest non-Government school accrediting association. ACI is the accrediting authority for thousands of students in hundreds of schools in 9 countries on five continents, and operates within 35 states of the USA (including Washington DC).
Umm..is that the same Accrediting Commission International, that re-invented itself with a new name, after it was closed down in a Government sting operation?
“Great Moments in Accreditation:
The Case of IAC, ACI, and The Three Stooges
John Bear
In 1982, there opened for business in Missouri the International Accrediting Commission (IAC). They aggressively marketed their accreditation services among hundreds of then-unaccredited institutions in the United States. Their standards were rather modest, but they were operating within the law, and they were able to bestow that magical word “accredited” upon their clients.
More than 130 institutions had achieved IAC accreditation by 1989, when one Eric Vieth established the Eastern Missouri Business College and immediately applied to the International Accrediting Commission. Vieth opened his headquarters in a one-room office in St. Louis, Missouri, and issued an eight-page typewritten catalog that listed faculty members such as Arnold Ziffel, Edward J. Haskell, M. Howard, Jerome Howard, and Lawrence Fine.
Trivia buffs may recall that Arnold Ziffel was the pig on the TV show Green Acres, Eddie Haskell was the obsequious friend on Leave It to Beaver, and the Messrs. Howard, Howard, and Fine were collectively known as the Three Stooges.
It gets better. The college seal was emblazoned with the phrase Solum pro Avibus Est Educatio, which means “Education is only for the birds,” and the motto was Latrocina et Raptus, or, loosely translated, everything from petty theft to highway robbery. Doctorates were offered by mail in dozens of fields, from aerospace to marine biology. The marine biology textbook was identified as The Little Golden Book of Fishes.
Unlike what you may have been imagining, Eastern Missouri Business College founder Vieth was wearing a white hat. As assistant attorney general for the state of Missouri, he had set up this clever sting operation. And when the head of the International Accrediting Commission stopped by, had a quick look around, accepted a cashier’s check, and pronounced the East Missouri Business College fully accredited, he was immediately slapped with an injunction and was ultimately fined heavily and ordered to shut down his agency.
End of story? Sadly, no. Immediately after the closing of International Accrediting Commission, there opened, the next state over, in Beebe, Arkansas, the Accrediting Commission International (ACI), which immediately invited all of the IAC schools (except, presumably, Eastern Missouri Business) to become automatically accredited by ACI.
ACI is in business today, bigger than ever, accrediting over 250 institutions (I don’t know how many more, since—incredibly—they decline to make their membership list public). Its operation appears to be legal in Arkansas. ACI also offers “certification” to any teacher working for any of the schools it accredits. Its Web site states:
This certification is not to be confused with State Teacher Certification. This is a vehicle to let our members know that a teacher is qualified in a certain field to teach subjects for our membership. Administrators may also be certified.
Certification is provided when a MEMBER institution requests it. We do not certify teachers who are not working for one of our members at the time they are certified. They may keep their certification if they leave the school, but only if they leave in good graces with the membership.
The teacher must furnish a request letter from the member school and a resume. If they have attended official classes at a college in their field they must furnish a transcript of credits. If they have been conferred a degree, a copy of the degree should also be submitted with the application. Please only send copies because we will not return them. The fee for teacher certification is $25.00 per year at all levels. The certificate must be renewed January 1 each year.
Meanwhile, well-meaning consumers, who have been trained to ask, “Is it accredited,” reach for their checkbooks, because they don’t know that they must ask the essential second question: “And is the accrediting agency recognized by the Department of Education or the Council on Higher Education Accreditation?”
__________________
John Bear is an author based in El Cerrito, California. For 12 years he was the FBI’s principal consultant and expert witness on diploma mills and fake degrees.”"
So Life Chrristian University is set up under a widely-known and non-Policed fake accreditation scheme.
What about the degrees offered by Life Christian University. Surely they must count for something?
Well, no.
To be granted a ‘degree in theology’ at Life Christian University you must do enough course work that earns 30 credit hours.
From the Life Christian University student handbook….
http://www.lcus.edu/cat.zip
“A diploma in theology is awarded to a student who successfully completes the first year program for college credit (30-hours-total)”
Hmm…sounds tough..and time consuming.
Surely there must be another way for the busy pastor to get the magic 30 credit hours ..to get their degree?
Back to the student handbook…
“Formal teaching and preaching experience may qualify a student for Ministry Life Experience (MLE) credit. Up to 30 credit hours of MLE credit may be awarded towards a bachelor’s degree. See your campus director for details.”
So you need a minimum of 30 credit hours to get a degree, and if you pay your $990 fee ($33 per credit hour) in full, and you have the 30 ‘ministry life experience’ credits awarded, then a ‘Life Christian University degree’ has been ‘earned’.
But surely Joyce Meyer would have done some work to ‘earn’ her degree from Life Christian University?
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=23144
“I called Life Christian University. (The number is 813-909-9720).
I spoke with a woman (I believe she said her name was Tammy, but my mind might be playing tricks on me) who was the pastor’s secretary. I asked her what Joyce Meyer submitted for a dissertation. Here’s the answer I got:
“We award Ph.D.’s to those who have a substantial body of published work. It is a lot easier to attend class than write a book (note: she said this without her nose visibly growing), and so Joyce’s certificate shows how many pages of which works were accepted for her Bachelor’s Level, how many for her Master’s, and how many for her doctorate.”
In fact you don’t have to be a pastor/teacher to get a ‘life experience degree’. You can buy one on-line at sites like ’speedy degrees dot com’.
http://www.speedydegrees.com/
“Buy Online Degrees & Diplomas on the basis of your work / life experience.
If you have gained some experience in the work/life/military field then you are qualified to earn yourself an online non-traditional life experience online degree in any profession you inspire without studying for it.
We offer accelerated yet accredited life experience degree and diploma programs in Associate, Bachelors degree, Masters degree and PhD’s From Ashwood University, Buy a degree / Buy a diploma and other disciplines covering a vast majority of majors.
You can earn your preferred novelty degree by selecting a major from our Degree programs.
No admissions and no shipment fees! All you got to do is show your experience and take the reward by placing an order for your relevant field. If you are approved by our evaluation committee, we will send your life experience degree through free delivery, in as little as 7 days!
Click here to get your Online Life Experience Degrees or Diplomas
for as low as $239
See If You Qualify For a Life Experience Degree
It’s just a 2 minute process to find out whether you qualify for a life experience degree in any major of your choice!
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Buy Life Experience Degree that will work for YOU!
With accredited life experience degrees provided by Speedy Degrees, you can upgrade your professional life without taking admission or taking any hassle of attending classes.
Our flexible and speedy degree programs allow anyone to upgrade his professional life and enjoy the privileges reserved for degree holders only. Our degree programs include Bachelors Degree Program, Masters Degree Program, Associate Degree Program and Doctorate Degree Program. Now you can also earn 100% original desired degree and show it with pride everywhere. All you have to do is to show your relevant experience and that’s it. Your College degree package will
arrive at your doorstep within 7 days.
A higher education degree can do all those things for you that you have been dreaming all your life:
Earns you a secured upper level job
Gets you a well deserved promotion
Equips you with a smart and fast online degree without studying for it
Boosts your career potential”
So how does ‘Dr’ Joyce Meyer describe her ‘earned’ doctorate again?
http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/FAQ/
“What is Joyce Meyer’s educational background?
Joyce holds an earned PhD in theology from Life Christian University in Tampa, Florida…..”
Hmmm….do I get 2 credit hours for this piece on Joyce Meyer’s fraudulent modus operandi at the University of Signposts, even though it was futile and pointless because the bar for exposing wrongdoing is much higher for already-corrupt penty preachers?
January 18th, 2007 at 7:25 am
Great post Lance. Yes, Joyce Meyer is speaking at CCCOF this weekend. I have a number of friends who will be attending and I have really been struggling with how to address all this stuff with them.
All it takes is a bit of research (or a lot in the case of your post Lance, thanks) on the net to see there are some very serious question marks hanging over Meyer’s ministry.
We are instructed to “examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21. I wish that people, particularly at CCCOF, were a bit more discerning about this stuff. Sadly, most people there just trust Phil Pringle (despite the utter disgrace of hosting Robb Thompson, Benny Hinn and TD Jakes). Baa Baa.
I was considering printing off copies of these articles and handing them out at the traffic lights in front of the church. Wonder if I could get arrested doing that?
http://www.ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=431382734
http://www.afcministry.com/Joyce_Meyers.htm
January 18th, 2007 at 7:27 am
Well Dr. Lance, I am quite impressed with your research. That lady is not lady, she is a charlatan and a creep, good work.
rev
January 18th, 2007 at 8:24 am
I know there were people offended and who complained about Robb Thompson’s preaching at CCC recently. Why don’t people follow up on this stuff and start researching and asking questions. When Thompson goes back home and starts lying on his website about what happened at CCC (eg outright lies about numbers of people who responded to altar calls) why don’t people start examining what is going on?
I am not saying that people have to agree with me or anyone else here at Signposts. All I am saying is that we should all be discerning and check things out for ourselves rather than just listening to anything and everything that the leadership at CCC and Hillsong, particularly, parades out.
January 18th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Great post Lance! wow!
January 18th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Hi Abby,
Just had a look at some websites associated with “dr” Robb Thompson, what an abomination of a human being! He looks kike the worst kind of used car / real estate salesman.
The complaints that were made at CCC, were they made by CCC members to pastors? What were the complaints & how were the concerns addressed?
January 18th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Hi Reve,
The complaints were made directly, in writing to Phil Pringle. They were acknowledged by Pringle and he accepted that some of the remarks made by Thompson were contrary to CCC teachings/beliefs particularly in relation to Thompson’s statements about “unplugging” from losers. Still, no public apology and no public acknowledgement that the leadership made a grave error of judgement in inviting him to speak at CCC.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Sorry, yes the complaints were made by long time church members.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:44 am
The complaints related specifically to Thompson’s comments about how we should be hanging around with CEOs and “unplugging” from losers who work in petrol stations.
It was stomach turning.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:53 am
He is a good buddy of Pat Mesiti’s by the way Reve. Hardly surprising.
January 18th, 2007 at 11:19 am
That’s hilarious, before you posted that i was thinking how remarkably similar the two were.
Are you going Saturday night? I was considering going & cub-scouting for Lance. I’m only about 15 mins drive away.
One thing you said:
“acknowledged by Pringle and he accepted that some of the remarks made by Thompson were contrary to CCC teachings/beliefs particularly in relation to Thompson’s statements about “unplugging” from losers”
Not sure about you but, i’m not sure that really IS so far removed from the CCC ethos. When i was there in the 90’s as a semi-regular attendant & MTC student, there was definitely a bent towards “getting around people who were successful & who would help you reach your potential & removing ties with people who were negative & holding you back”.
One time, when i was about 21/22 i had a mate who was very athletic & about 6′4 whom i invited along to a CCC basketball team try-out. Once there i noticed that one of the other team members, a guy of pacific islander appearance who was like CCC’s token “homeboy” was going out of his way to connect with my friend, often speaking to him in a way that i couldn’t completely hear. Now just to fill you in, the homey type guy was close mates with another guy at CCC whom had been a professional golfer (apparently, i’d never heard of him, but im not into golf anyway) whom was present also.
My mate didn’t like it much & told me afterwards that this guy had been saying to him “you need to hang around really positive & successful guys like us, if you join up with CCC you can hang with us & it will really influence your life & help you get further”. My mate inferred to me that what this guy was implying was that he could do better socially than his friendship with me, & that he needed to be around other people who were in his “league”.
This same person i noticed services following, was a kind of recruitment king, always turning up with new recruits & wanting to be recognised by Phil for bringing them to the front at the altar call & glowing with pride when Phil once did recognise his efforts from the pulpit. But the ppl he brought were always trendies & impossibly good-looking, he never turned up with a homeless person or anything like that.
One time i saw him at Warringah Mall movies & he was with a Home & Away star (filmed in the adjoining electorate) who soon became a semi-regular attendant at the 6pm services at CCC. I thought “oh right, now they can’t just be potential winners in life anymore, they actually have to celebrities to get this guy’s interest”.
Perhaps you know who i’m talking about Abby, or perhaps someone else here does. I don’t think this guy was acting completely out of his own volition so much as he was being encouraged by CCC to locate & recruit young “winners” & “celebrities” from different areas to attend.
The guy in question passed away recently of some medical illness, he wasn’t even 40 - curious. The “professional” golf players name was obscure before this event & remains obscure now.
I on the other hand earn 50k+ working for the largest advertising medium in the country & live in an apartment with a million-dollar view across Sydney Harbour, i own everything i have including a latest model car & have next to no debt. But yeah, i was the “loser” back then.