hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
January 30th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
because this is the hillsong thread and hillsong was involved would be my guess!
January 30th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
“Why is that (post 1589) of interest to this thread?”
Just the whole ’show must go on’ mentality in this contemporary church scene.
Like recently when someone died in wanker pastor Mark O’Brien’s Warnbro church during a service, and they just kept going regardless.
A few years ago, a girl died on a Scripture Union camp and they just launched straight back into their pre-planned fun program.
And there was the Hill$ong pastor who drowned a year ago - again, barely a mention from B1 and B2.
Someone has died, young people are trying to process grief, and for many of them it’s a new experience..
Can’t these ‘leaders’ actually be pastors and switch gears if something comes out of left field, and help people deal with it, or does something like this expose the inadequate pastoral skills of the ‘leaders’ of the ‘contemporary’ church?
Although I must say I am surprised they even announced the pastor’s death at the Parchute festival…since it was something that wasn’t awesome dude.
January 30th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
The accident actually didn’t happen at parachute. It happened about 5 km’s down the road.
I’m curious though, what would you have had them do? The people directly affected were given immediate access to, and care from, pastors from various denominations at the event and the entire mainstage portion of the event was stopped so people could be notified of the tragedy. The entire crowd then all joined in prayer for those affected. Given the time the police divers found Andrew’s body (it was almost dark by then) and relayed that information to the Parachute staff, the crowd were notified almost imediately and it was purely a coincidence that Darlene and her team were on stage at the time. The festival timetable was set months earlier.
There were approximately 30,000 people present. Given that only a small percentage of people there would have actually known Andrew (he was from CCC Auckland) I fail to see any problem with the way it was handled. It was tragic to say the least but rather than turn this into a Hillsong or de Jong attack, why can’t we just spare a thought for Andrew’s family, including his twin brother who has to fly up from Christchurch. Let’s not turn this sad event into an excuse to attack others.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
I want to know why, with all that “faith” there, he wasn’t raised from the dead!
Our ever reliable Dido tells us that there were 30,000 people there….where is their faith?
30,000 hill$ongesc people including Paul De Jong and Darlene Cheque and not even a mustard seed….
January 30th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
When something like this happens in the real world, the event that is in progress or about to happen is cancelled as a mark of respect because of the tragedy.
People are usually too cut up to go on with what was planned ..because it seems inappropriate to play a football game or a rock concert or a dog-catching-a-frisbee competition..or whatever.
But again, that’s out in the real world, where when something bad happens to someone it actually matters. People aren’t so focussed on what they’ve planned that they haven’t completely lost perspective of what’s important.
Now I take the point that this is an unusual situation, a gathering of 30000 Christians.
Yes, I acknowledge that most of those who attend an event like Parachute are so brain dead and self-absorbed that hearing that a pastor had died just near the event…would have about the same impact of hearing that the driver of an Orange Datsun..registration no. AOG 666 has left their lights on.
I get that the average young Christian isn’t paying attention to what’s going on around them. I totally get that….so I understand how the organisers would not have seen any need to go beyond the shallow.
I also get that pastors get nervous if anything disrupts the routine (even though they’re always banging on about ‘letting things flow’ in the spirit…we all know that’s bullshit when it comes to the rigid format of the service in the ‘contemporary’ church).
However, I’ve got to say that if ‘let’s all hold hands and pray for the family’ was the best the organisers could come up with on the spot..then that’s pretty token and lame.
It’s supposed to be a ‘creative’ festival. What’s wrong with using their imagination?
What were some of the favourite worship songs of the pastor? Everybody could have sung them…and turned the night into a memorable dedication to his life.
There were a gazillion pastors there, surely one of them could have trotted out a standard memorial service mini-sermon that they’d done a bazillion times.
I disagree that a small percentage of the crowd would have known him…particularly in the in-bred Christian music scene..
And how would organisers of an event being attended by 30000 people..be aware if someone 200 metres from the stage knew the pastor and was devastated. Out of sight, out of mind. And how would that someone who is 200 metres from the stage know that help was being offered? It would be like me standing in a corporate box at an AFL match trying to pick someone out on the other side of the ground who was sad.
The reality is that some organisations handle things that come out of left field really well, and ‘contemporary’ church organisations routinely handle those things poorly.
I have the same issue with my own workplace over this.
I dread the prospect of Queen Elizabeth carking it during the third quarter of a West Coast Eagles live broadcast, because our pre-planned program (the footy) is not programmed to cope with a major breaking news event….and it drives me nuts that contingency plans are not in place for Plan B situations.
I suppose it’s the difference between being a functional organisation, and an organisation in touch with the rhythm and the ebbs and flows of a community.. and I find ‘contemporary’ Christian organisations to be particularly bad at the latter…
And just thinking about it…I’m pretty confident that if the drowning victim had not been a pastor, but just a 22-year old churchgoing nobody, then the festival wouldn’t have even acknowledged his passing.
And if it had been Mark De Jong in the water, then the ‘Concert For Mark’ would still have been going 12 hours later.
Gotta love the Christian death pecking order.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Good one Neil.
While you sit there and mock everyone at the festival we’ll be here grieving our friend.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Neil
Mate … I’m no friend of Hill$ong … but that’s just sick and twisted. I suggest that you need ‘prayer’ more than the poor guy that tragically drowned.
Hopefully he is at home with the Lord … meanwhile it’s you my friend that’s in (a living) hell, as your outburst clearly shows!
His friends and family need compassion and support … this is akin to the type of abuse most of us walked away from. Lift your game!
Jack
January 30th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Orange Datsun..registration no. AOG 666
What? at that gathering someone was driving a Datsun?
Oh, wait I get it. If you left the lights on in your Datsun, you couldn’t get up to turn them off because then all the pastors would know you weren’t prospering.
January 31st, 2007 at 8:35 am
So the Parachute Music Festival is the kiwi version of Australia’a Blackstump Music Festival or Hillsong Conference? I was in NZ last month & never heard a thing about it.
January 31st, 2007 at 8:52 am
Hmmm…..i stand educated, i have just learnt :
“Parachute is the biggest christian music festival outside of the USA, it attracts 30,000 - Blackstump attracts less than 5,000″
Dosen’t even compare. Who would have thought NZ had something so big?
January 31st, 2007 at 9:05 am
For those who are interested :-
The Myspace of the Auckland Youth Pastor who passed : -
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=81370251
Interestingly the last msg he recieved on it before he died describes how he had skydived solo recently. Seems he lived a full life as a bit of a daredevil.
January 31st, 2007 at 9:23 am
Dido and Jack of it,
These money grabbing villians preach raising people from the dead!
Why can’t they pull it off?
January 31st, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Neil asks:
“These spirit filled men of God preach raising people from the dead!
Why can’t they pull it off”
A quick read of these things will show that the vast majority of these resurrections occur in the third world.
Draw what conclusions you will from that.
January 31st, 2007 at 7:23 pm
That’s true ADHD, although I must point out that I don’t think many of these have been adequately documented. I think it’s because the people of Africa and Asia have a different mindset than us in the west. They are more ready to accept what they are taught at face value (which does leave them open to spiritual abuse) and simply accept that if the bible says it, then it’s true. I have a mate who ministers in Africa regularly, and he sees more miracles in a week there than in years back here.
January 31st, 2007 at 7:25 pm
hmmm
January 31st, 2007 at 10:28 pm
You just might…..
“I might get featured on Signposts again (how exciting) but I can’t wait for Hillsong Conference 2007.
Here is a list of the artists and speakers coming so far.
Chris Tomlin
Steven Curtis Chapman
Israel Houghton
Jentezen Franklin
Joseph Prince
Ed Young Jr.
Watoto Children’s Choir
Louie Giglio
TD Jakes
John Bevere
Can’t wait to see Chris Tomlin live, and hear Ed Young Jnr.”
From http://marked35.blogspot.com/2007/01/hillsong-conference2007.html
January 31st, 2007 at 10:42 pm
I don’t know what made me think of this….maybe because it’s Wednesday night which is traditionally ‘home group night’ in many churches …but I have this horrific memory of the embarrassment of attending a Subiaco Church of Christ home group with the leader INSISTING that we all stand around a piano and sing worship songs for 20 minutes.
Now, I’m not a singer and I was never a fan of Christian songbook type songs and I could tolerate the experience in a large auditorium, but in a small piano room off the kitchen next to the dunny with several other people who couldn’t sing either and a labrador repeatedly stopping by to sniff your nuts…(forcing you to protect your goodies while pretending the dog is not distracting you)……it was not a happy and comfortable experience.
What is this thing with home groups and worship times?
There’s only one person who ever wants to do it..and they’re only doing it because they feel they ‘must’… because it’s the done thing…
Do home or cell groups still do that…?
My goodness, I’m just realising how long it’s been since I’ve been in a weekly church setting.
January 31st, 2007 at 11:13 pm
I agree Lance. Worship should be something we do as a sign of our love for God and to Him. It shouldn’t be just about singing songs. It should never be forced and it should never be about ourselves (remember CCC’s old songs- “I’m gonna worship the King” or “I walk by faith”, or any of the other 7500 songs they write with the personal pro-noun “I’m” in them). Some of the best worship I’ve ever had has been spontaneous with lots of silence and reflection too.
February 1st, 2007 at 5:17 am
Re: 1596 “While you sit there and mock everyone at the festival we’ll be here grieving our friend.”
While in the mosh pit jumping up and down to Third Day?
February 1st, 2007 at 7:50 am
HERE IS GREAT NEWS….
http://www.god.tv all your favorites are online now….
February 1st, 2007 at 12:33 pm
“Re: 1596 “While you sit there and mock everyone at the festival we’ll be here grieving our friend.”
While in the mosh pit jumping up and down to Third Day?”
Great point.
February 1st, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Are you serious?
God, no.
We all left to help Andrew’s family and to process it all away from the crowds in private.
Have you no respect for human life and the pain and anguish caused by its loss?
This is truly, deeply saddening that you could respond to someone’s death in this manner. I honestly hope that your own passings are not met with such a response.
February 1st, 2007 at 1:20 pm
dido - don’t get all red about this. We could only be sad if he was gay and died of AIDS. Now that kind of a death is tragic. But a youth pastor is nothing to get excited about. It’s not that these people are heartless, it’s just that his death was so politically incorrect that they can’t be compassionate.
If you want lancey and the crowd to grieve, make up a story about how he was abused at a church function because of his orientation. … Hey, if we research his background we may find that he was “gay friendly”, which would make the passing easier to grieve. You see, it’s all about how the so called infringed are treated.
Sorry about your friend. From his blog, it sounds like he made a good impact on people, and I am sure he will be missed by many.
To Think though, you would expect anything like compasion from the judges of SP…
February 1st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
I am realy disturbed at the way this has been bandied about - Dido has informed us that he was grieving his friends passing - with anyone elses pain we show compassion, why not for Dido?
I am sorry for the mockery that is being made of this guys death - I am reminded of the John Donne meditation:
February 1st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
“1612
dido Says:
February 1st, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Are you serious?
God, no.
Have you no respect for human life and the pain and anguish caused by its loss?”
I have loads of it! Enough to find the “show must go on at all costs” mentality repugnant.
“I honestly hope that your own passings are not met with such a response.”
As, with yours.
February 1st, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Ananias = was that an apology???
February 1st, 2007 at 1:40 pm
#1616 = Sorry for the misspelling - should read Anais not ananias.
February 1st, 2007 at 1:58 pm
No, it wasn’t an apology. My opinion was as thus:- I thought that it was tasteless and dishonourable that a Christian dies and at a festival where his peers are at, it doesn’t even make a dent in their tight, professional schedule.
I’ve been to secular sporting events where the games have been called off as a mark of respect.
So, no..no apology. I’m just sorry that the organizers of such a festival should have at least have done more of an acknowledgment.
February 1st, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Anais
So … for the sake of clarity … no compassion for Dido and his friends grieving their mate?
No compassion for the other friends and family of the guy who died tragically?
If so, say so … and reserve your venom (re the organisers etc) for a separate post so as not to add to people’s grief.
Jack
February 1st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
“Have you no respect for human life and the pain and anguish caused by its loss?”
What I for one am saying is that respect for human life and the pain and anguish caused by its loss TAKES PRECEDENCE…over the organisers of the festival feeling that they have to complete their schedule of pissweak Jesus Jingles.
That the crowd of ‘Christians’ didn’t all-as-one join in with you in mourning your loss, I find to be frankly bizarre.
What’s coming through is clear, that Andrew was a rare guy who took the time to find out how others were travelling in life ..over and above his own battle with Crohn’s.
This is not a dig at Andrew or those who are grieving, it’s a dig at the self-absorbed bastards who run the church and the Christian worship scene who’ve lost perspective of what and who is important in life…so they can keep moshing for Jesus.