hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
February 1st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Anais you show the compassion of a warthog - really what has your concern for the way the show kept on going got to do with your personal attack on the Dido and your scurrelous suggestion that he (I’m assuming gender based on the way Dido writes) grieved while moshing to Third Day. This is an outrageious way to treat a fellow human being.
Lance Anias did not make a good point and essentially your suggestion that it was puts you straight into the box that people are always placing you in - rude inconsiderate, out for yourself, arrogant - pondscum - my hearless-fuckwit-da just went beserk. Wake up to yourself - both of you.
Dido, please accept that there are people here who don;t think you have to be an emergent blogger who has experienced abuse at the hands of Brian Houston to be allowed to the grace of being with you when you write about your own pain.
Lately we have been getting a whole heap of people calling us on our abusive language and the way we attack. I have posted elsewhere several times that I think people need to be adults and accept that argy bargy contains a certain amount of vitriol at times. But this needless denegration of people this lack of consideratoin for the pain in other hearts is simply beyond the pail.
I’m all for having a crack at people - and I will be for the next moron who comes along just looking for a biffing - but at what point does our sport turn us into te very people we raale against? Where is the grace that God shows us when we act so gracelessly.
Lance and Anais you both need to re-read Dido’s posts and yours and I hope you come to some sort of reasonable poistion regarding your own words in this case.
February 1st, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Lance well said … you made your point (well) and paid respect where respect is due.
Perhaps Anias will be as good…
Jack
February 1st, 2007 at 2:43 pm
My post above was written and posted whithout the benfit of reading Lances further posting - a redemptoin of sirts - the point is still that Dido has not been shown the grace we would expect - your points Lance about the show going on (and your as well Anias) are fully valid and I agree, however we ahve done the same thing here - rather than join with Dido in his grief we went heartlessly on with our attack of the shows organisers - can you not see the irony in that?
February 1st, 2007 at 3:22 pm
The question is, when is it the right time to deal with this issue of church leaders who think the way for Christians to deal with grief is to say..’ok…everybody say a quick prayer…..right…now just get over it and move on.’
If you try and raise it when nobody is grieving then it’s a cold issue and no-one gives a stuff.
If you raise the issue of how ‘contemporary’ church leaders deal with people’s grief when somebody HAS died, then people’s feelings are understandably raw..and people get pissed because you’ve raised it.
But at some point..the ‘contemporary’ church has to be confronted with its attitude to the legitimacy of grief and melancholy on those occasions when it’s warranted…(’a time to sing..a time to mourn’ etc)
This isn’t specifically about the organisers of the Parachute festival by the way, it’s symptomatic of a worship scene culture and a ‘contemporary’ church culture that gives zero value to an individual’s life (except if that individual is part of making the church brand look good).
When this really shits me, is when an old-timer in a ‘contemporary’ church passes on..and it rates about one Times New Roman line in the newsletter..right below the half-page colour spiel about the ‘awesome’ youth night next Friday with paintball and hot dogs.
February 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Look I totally agree with you Lance - but can you see how we have participated in exactly the same thing by not acknowledging Didos grief? Can you apologise to Dido for the pain the words he has read may have caused him? Can you give me the adress of the youth night with paint ball and hot dogs?
February 1st, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Lance, In konw your here so how about responding to 1625?
February 1st, 2007 at 4:28 pm
I acknowledge being smacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper..and I acknowledge Dido’s grief (although I never denied the grief, my point is..I want the Parachute Festival and the ‘contemporary’ church to do more to acknowledge grief, instead of pass it off with a quick prayer and some moshing for Jesus. I’m the big fan of grief..why am I getting hassled about it? Grief rules, that’s my point. My original post said there should have been some tribute songs for Andrew Atkinson and an impromptu memorial service spiel..instead of more moshing for Jesus)
February 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
my ears are itching
my fingers are twitching
my mind is stitching some lines
i’m ready to login
and join in the bloggin’
and boot in those old friends of mine
there will be people at HS etc. who will be loving this signposts controversy re Parashoot. Everyone should remember, these are businesses and the show must go on no matter what. This poor guys death will become a tool to parade and portray a compassionate side eventually, nothing is sacred here, everything will be used. It’s one of the reasons why I left. It’s best to turn and walk away and rejoin the real world and let the bible wash away your disgust.
February 1st, 2007 at 8:02 pm
I would imagine that many people on this blog would like to get people around to their way of thinking, cos its more enlightened. Fair enough, I tend to think thats fairly accurate.
Usually a key ingredient of that process is for people to see a different and better fruit to be had ‘on the other side’. I would imagine that after reading this thread many ‘on the other side’ may consider that its better to stick with the schmaltz and weather the pre-offering brainwashings than to cross over and be like ‘those people on signposts’.
Has enlightenment come at a cost that puts us back at square one? I think I probably cope better with someone telling me I’m ‘awesome’ than a f**** idiot w******r!!!!!!, as vacuous as the “you’re awesome” may be.
February 1st, 2007 at 8:34 pm
But you’re assuming that anyone would or should take any notice of me.
This is just a place to be honest about what’s going on.
It’s not a religion or a faith in its own right, nor a church.
Any suggestion that Signposts is some sort of paragon of virtue or a new denomination is seriously misguided.
It’s a blog where people post comments and exchange ideas…like the real conversations that happen in real households and workplaces every day.
That’s all.
Just a blog.
No need for the Free Speech Police to get their panties in a bunch (hat-tip John Ziegler).
If anybody doesn’t like Signposts .. change the channel.
http://www.godsolovestheworld.com/
February 1st, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Hopefully this blog is more than just a place where people exchange ideas - a place where people can come to a deeper understanding. Lance I’m sure you would be happy if you were to succeed in helping people do that.
This blog would probably be so much larger, with so many more people engaging with each other [leading to so much more benefit] - if it wasn’t for the vitriole that sometimes gets dished out.
No need for speech police here, and no need to change the channel. Perhaps a need sometimes to consider each others humanity?
February 1st, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Zulu
While I understand your point of view …and in an ideal setting agree with you … Signposts is not such a place – an ideal setting.
I waded in here quite some time ago (I was also a long-time ‘lurker’) sounding very much like yourself and got (you guessed it) hurt / took offence etc. I had quite a break before coming back. This of course begs the question … why return?
Firstly it wasn’t a planned move just kinda happened. Second I soon realised that the experience here forced me to look deeper and more honestly at many of my own hurts as well as the hurts that I had inflicted (knowingly or otherwise) on others.
Ironically, if you like, in being so BAD …‘Signposts’ …did me a lot of GOOD!
First I had to realise that I was no longer pastoring (in quite the same way) and I didn’t have to have ALL the answers or be the ‘peace-keeper’ or ‘peace-maker’ or ‘teacher’ etc.
Here, I was allowed to be me, albeit not a very pretty version of me; but a ‘me’ that needed to come out … be recognised and be healed.
Here …I had permission (as no one really cared anyway – my perception) as well as the opportunity … and so I took it, at least until I couldn’t take it anymore!
Truth and integrity demanded I stop deceiving myself. Only then was the Lord able to promote the healing process.
While I don’t condone some of what happens here, I can understand it more now. Hurt people … (inevitably) hurt (other) people!
[And that doesn’t take into account the whole subject of ‘detoxing’ from (certain) churches / denominations etc. I picked this up today … its still unprocessed but in its raw state, goes something like this … Paul (Saul) spent approximately 14 years ‘de-programming’ from the harmful indoctrination etc he had received at the hands of the Pharisees et al; only then was he able to receive the revelation that saw him propelled towards the fulfilment of his divine call. I know this is over-simplifying somewhat … but worth chewing on].
As for ‘Signposts’ …I guess we can all … ‘take it or leave it’!
Jack
February 1st, 2007 at 11:32 pm
I do acknowledge Dido’s grief. Nothing I said was a personal attack upon Dido. My point about the mosh pit, was that the show went on, a brother-in-Christ dies, everyone is told such and then they cue up the band. Keep going.
When Dido, wrote that “we were all grieving..” etc and I wrote my response, mine was directed towards the festival. I didn’t address Dido singularly, the festival as a whole — I was meaning. Obviously, after a re-read, it would have been taken as such.
Dido, I am very sorry for the loss of your friend, I’m sorry that in my own reactionary statements about the festival’s response and outcome that I was not mindful to what you’re going through personally.
Obviously, I have come across as a complete arse and once again, I’m sorry for the loss of your friend and hope that you and his other friends and especially his family find comfort.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:40 am
re 1629 zulu
I have been reading and enjoying signposts for about a year and I can’t say I agree with Z. I don’t think anyone appears to be trying to coerce people to their way of thinking, it isn’t a ‘preach’ zone thankfully. I see lots of people who having come from similar areas of spiritual blackmail, emotional abuse and scriptural chicanery are relating their own experiences and ways of moving on.
So what if a bit of vitriole happens, so what if someone lets the monkey out, we’ve suffered for years the lies of Bristlin’ Bob (BCH), Teenangel (RLH), Yana Drama Kharma (DC) and all the other players and when you wise up it bloody hurts for a while, then you get mad and then you…etc. etc.
I tell you what, you wouldn’t get Bristlin’ to make a conciliatory, regretful statement such as Anais 1633, in all the years I knew him I never saw him shed a tear.
On a lighter note, ‘Godtv’ 1610…hilarius ! That is so funny, like a HS conference brochure from the early 90s. Rory and Wendy?
same ol’ blonde barbie doll, same ol’ gentle scruffy dood guy slightly upstaging submissive barbie toothy hippie blackpants chik, good grief!
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:52 am
Spiro you said:
“I see lots of people who having come from similar areas of spiritual blackmail, emotional abuse and scriptural chicanery are relating their own experiences and ways of moving on”.
To which ‘Jake Colsen’ might respond …
“Institutionalism breeds task-based friendships. As long as you’re on the same task together, you can be friends. When you’re not, people have to treat you like damaged goods.”
And for Brian Charles …
“Any human system will eventually dehumanize the very people it seeks to serve and those it dehumanizes the most are those who think they lead it. But not everyone in a system is given over to the priorities of that system. Many walk inside it without being given over to it. They live in Father’s life and graciously help others as he gives them opportunity.”
Jack
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:53 am
Jack
That’s right, the trouble is when you’re in it you don’t realise one, that you are institutionalized and two, that your friendships are’ common vision’ and task based, it’s the old ‘if you’re not with us, you’re agin us’ thing, quite understandable if you are looking from within the institution. That is why when you leave it is hard to understand why people at the least distance themselves from you and at the extreme vilify you internationally within the cartel.
As far as Brian Charles, well that’s also true to a certain extent, I haven’t seen anyone on Signposts actuallt condemn every HS member as being dehumanised. Anyone who has spent time there knows full well that there are thousands of people who truly love Jesus and have a life of Christian love for want of a better phrase.
I’m not so sure about ‘any human system will eventually dehumanise the very people it seeks to serve’. That just sounds a bit of a pithy one liner to me, a church is different because there are many people who look to the person standing in front of them as being a so called spiritual leader and they are often quite submitted to that leadership, and often that leadership will capitalize on the conflict between what you feel is your spiritual response and the required one. This is the bullying and cynical aspect of the whole leader/sheep relationship and is a whole blog in itself.
A lot of people who have had previous experience of church will know how to keep a separation between their family responsibilities, career, life path etc. and church life. these are the ones who often realise that their own spirituality and Godly relationship transcends the institution and they are the ones who carry on no matter who comes and goes. The people who come into the HS scene as their first churchification see it as the norm and will believe anything they are ‘taught’ because of the roles models presented as being the epitomy of success in christian life.
I have known many people at HS who take with a grain of salt the hype and corporate bullshit for the sake of the chance to help truly needy people, in the widest sense of the word needy. They don’t see themselves as being elitist true believers or spies in the midst, they are really loving people who care, I have seen these souls in churches of all types all over the world. Some people might say that that is a copout to stay in a HS but who is to judge and condemn.
February 2nd, 2007 at 10:29 am
Spiro
Very well said … and point taken; I know many of the senior leadership personally (worked with several) and BCH enough to validate your point/s.
There are of course many good people at H/S, but the ’system’ is destructive and eventually it tends to permeate the whole (a little leaven etc).
But what is happening to the AOG as a whole (through the leadership of BCH) is particularly alarming and worse still …many other groups are following H/S’s (perceived) success.
I think the fact that many leaders exploit people’s fears / insecurities etc IS somewhat de-humanising, as many of them simply accept the abuse and go along for the ride.
In the case of BCH … I remember one meeting that I attended (along with several other AOG Senior Pastors) where I was ‘emphatically warned’ … “don’t do anything to upset him … if he starts to fidget you’ve gone too far … etc. etc”. Even people close to him live in fear of his (well-known) temper tantrums.
This cannot be healthy in the long term. I can’t see how it would be possible to live with such abuse at Church without it having some carry-over effect in other spheres of life. I certainly feel for those who may be trapped in such a place!
Not judging or condemning, I was a victim of this abuse myself and it’s remains a tough call at times to know when to speak out for the sake of change and when to hold your peace for the sake of those still in the system?!
Good chatting to you.
Jack
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Spiro & Jack-of-it I accept that this must be a place where people can express themselves and debate fully, and even vociferously. However, I’m sure you would not go as far as saying that anything goes?
I do not subscribe to the “stick and stones can hurt my bones but words cannot harm me” rhyme anymore.
As for the transformation of viewpoints, I’m not suggesting that this is a place where people preach, but I’m sure for example if Phil Pringle jumped online and told you all how he has realised the folly of his ways, sold all his possessions, given his money away to the poor and was now starting a small emergent arts collective many here would be thrilled and regard it as a ‘victory.
You contend strongly for your viewpoints, and would be glad if it brought enlightenment to anyone, especially those captivated by Hill$ongesque spirituality.
As for the mention of ‘Police’, Lance you are the epitome of an online policeman with your constant vigilance and the resulting gems you post. Long transcribed texts of speeches and a wide array of sources for stories from around the world. You are constantly on watch for those who say and do the wrong thing.
Fair enough, cos we get the benefit of a lot of that, and it is valuable [and disheartening] to know just how much bizarre stuff is out there.
The results of a few people calling for a more compassionate disposition has resulted in some excellent posts where certain people have come out from behind their bristling online persona and shown their hearts.
Brilliant, and that’s why I hang around. Apart from being very switched on people who I learn a lot from [in between the stoushes], by virtue of your experiences you ultimately know how to contrast the abuse you can often cop in the church with a rare redeemed humanity.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:24 pm
“I have been reading and enjoying signposts for about a year and I can’t say I agree with Z. I don’t think anyone appears to be trying to coerce people to their way of thinking, it isn’t a ‘preach’ zone thankfully.”
Well, that probably goes for most here…but I am 110,000% here to coerce people into changing their thinking.
And my goodness it’s fun trying.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:57 pm
“It’s a blog where people post comments and exchange ideas…like the real conversations that happen in real households and workplaces every day.” That’s true Lance. Except in real households and work places people don’t need to resort to all the hate and venom that is spat at people here.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I don’t get fuckwit pentecostal pastors coming into my workplace or household each day either (thank God).
Thankfully for the most part they don’t interact with the community..and prefer to remain in their own holy huddle.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Jack and Zulu
You are right, but Lance has a right also to speak his mind, it doesn’t mean you have to agree or like him, besides he’s always a funny bugger and if he is about changing peoples thinking, well fair enough, after all he is a journalist, it’s in his dna ( now there’s a good HS term ).
Yes Jack I know all about Bristlin’s body language, that’s why my nickname for him is such, he’s a bristly character despite his long term public personna of happy go lucky, ordinary joe, bumbling blokey bloke. He will let everyone know how he is feeling by body language and physical prescence. It’s something all employees know and if you look along the ‘front row’ of any meeting you will see a phalanx of sometimes nervously twitchin devotees, earnestly searching every nuance of mood shift, like meercats in the desert (merecats?)…(mere cats….no, mere Kool katz is more HS)
He has been seen many times leaping up on an employees desk to impose his presence and to semi jokingly say without words, remember whose boss. I have heard him chastising the highest iccarii including Mighty Mouth, when he was still chief wunderkinde, in very un ambiguous terms who is boss around here. This behaviour is no surprise when you realise that HS is a business and Bristlin’ is the CEO, he’s always had trouble with lay people and employees trying to make it too much like a church. Many corporate CEOs in the largely American mould impose themselves like this and when you consider that 90% of Bristlin’s methodology and frame of reference is rooted in the long established American money church his behaviour is understandable. I don’t say that this is right, but I used to see in the early days that every time he came back from one of his trips, within two weeks some new idea would be announced, never acknowledged as being gleaned from overseas, always attributed to Bristlin’s insightful mind. Although he was careful to never boast of having such wisdom, he also never denied it, thus his notoriety as God’s man for the hour always grew. He is canny enough to know that Australians don’t like a braggart, remember, he is a NZer and there is a lot in that. Of course it’s bullying but when you believe that you are in ‘God’s will’ and you believe in the concept of spiritual submission and when you see that B is more ’succesful’ than you it’s not a problem because he is such a cool guy…blah blah..and you are privileged to be here etc. etc.
I agree that what he has bought to the AOG is not good, but if you go around the world you will see churches everywhere jettisioning their own identity and enbracing the HS franchise with gusto. It’s a sad thing to watch a church of 100 members straining to do their best HS impression on a sunday morning, right down to the running order, the ’success’ terminology, the cool chick out front, the groovin’ back line, the d & m affirmations rising up from the dugout during the string of pearls message, the contrived everything! It’s because of materialistic values, where fulfillment and success is gauged by what you’ve got and what you are wearing…Oh I’m going to stop now, I’m getting preachy bugger it ! These are all just my opinions and ways of understanding the lie, I’m not trying to force my thoughts on anyone, did that enough in the HS SS, Quirky Funky Dude was right to leave when he did ! Long live Quirky !!!
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Thankfully for the most part they don’t interact with the community..and prefer to remain in their own holy huddle.
Ouch! great double edged truth line Lance
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
“Thankfully for the most part they don’t interact with the community..and prefer to remain in their own holy huddle.”
Well, it’s true. They wank on and on about ‘we’re gonna take this nation for Jesus’….rah..rah..rah… but when they meet a real true life Australian..they shit themselves.
When they encounter swearing…it’s “oh my eyes..my eyes”
Negative talk. “oh my ears..my ears”.
Failure to lift the name of Jesus on high. (whatever that means). ‘Oh my spirit..my spirit.’
Maybe that’s why they want you to come to their church in large numbers, because they’re too scared of wetting their pants if they leave the safety of their sandbox.
They get as far as Signposts, and they go ..’danger..danger!…..turn back..turn back…!’
Umm..Acts 17:11….what’s the sermon you’re preparing for Sunday..just out of interest?
“The Importance of Being Awesome?”
“The Excellence of Adding Incredibleness To A Winning Life?”
“The Power And Authority of Incredibly Awesome Excellence?”
Geez it’s all a wank.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:57 pm
true, the ironic thing is now that these so called Pente churches are way too homogenised to be called Pente in the old manner of thinking, I mean, nothing ever happens. It’s so boring ! It’s all been dummed down, gone are the days when you’d get a maiden wearing a flowing busty white gown with arms raised leaning out over the rail of the first balcony of the Hillcentre releasing a long and wordy utterance just as the worship was ending. Classic. Or a good old head crushing and back forcing to create a demonic flinging leap back into the second row of seats, aaah those were the days, or a guy striding up the aisle taking his clothes off as he approaches an alarmed Bristlin’ in mid preach.
February 2nd, 2007 at 8:05 pm
“Pentacostals beware!
One of the drawbacks with a forum such as Signposts is that you end up spending more time than you should debating issues. I have been involved in a discussion on the subject of homosexuality with a guy who is gay. He has obviously been hurt by the church, in particular the Pentacostal church, and displays massive amounts of contempt and spits bucket loads of venom towards Pentacostals. Whilst his methods and language are not serving him or his cause in any way, much of what he says about Pentacostalism is spot on.
I consider myself to be an anti-Pentacostal Pentacostal. By that I mean that I cannot stand many of the trappings of the modern Pentacostal church. My style of worship and relationship with the Father would fall under the Pentacostal model- I speak in tongues, I raise my hands in worship, I believe that Jesus bore all of my sin, sickness and disease on the cross and I experience the manifest presence of God, His Holy Spirit in my life. But I look at the modern Pentacostal movement and cringe. The excesses, the pursuit of riches, the divide between “leity” and “leadership”, the use and abuse of people “for the greater good”, the compulsion to tithe and the pronouncement of curses if you don’t all combine to make the modern penty church appear to be the Apostate church that Paul mentions in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron…” Scary stuff. It’s just such a shame that so many people throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely write off all Pentacostals.”
From http://acts17-11.blogspot.com/2007/02/i-am-anti-pentacostal-pentacostal.html
February 2nd, 2007 at 8:33 pm
what the heck is a pentAcostal?
February 2nd, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Anais - excellent call - your last post here has saved you from looking like an absolute arse- and now I look like a patronising git
February 2nd, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Spiro
I’ll bet that feels better … hang in there mate!
Jack
February 2nd, 2007 at 10:07 pm
“what the heck is a pentAcostal?” That’s what happens when you start writing blog posts after midnight with the lights off so as to not wake the wife