hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
February 12th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Very true Sanders. Most people don’t want to take responsibility for things they don’t have to. And if church leaders are more than willing to take the responsibility (to one degree or another) for people’s spirituality, and all they have to do is turn up, give money, volunteer for stuff and tow the line, then that’s what most people will do. It is much easier this way.
Heaven forbid if we have to put in the effort to sort through theology for ourselves, put in the effort to cultivate meaningful and deep relationships, and wait on God ourselves for His calling in our lives….
Notice that the approach Jesus took to teaching was one of telling stories and leaving it up to people to think it through for themselves. There were no “3 steps to success” in his teaching. He who has ears, let him hear…..
February 12th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
I have realised - through my interaction on signposts - that I have been guilty of what might be called ‘reductionism’ in relation to the whole topic of how/when is one saved etc.
What I mean is; I have been guilty of ‘reducing’ the complexity of ALL that is involved in the process of salvation … (e.g. and in no particular order: regeneration … adoption … justification … conversion … salvation etc etc) to a simpler form which has unfortunately stripped the ‘whole’ of it’s majesty, beauty and (fuller) truth-dynamic.
Even worse, is the tendency to further reduce (or simplify) our concepts to that of a ‘formula’! This tendency I’m sure has resulted in some ‘dodgy’ decisions and a lot of confusion.
An example might be confusing regeneration with conversion.
Regeneration or being ‘born again’ is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically—it just happens to us!—so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth.
Paul argues that unbelievers “are dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1; cf. 2:5). They are under the dominion of the world, the flesh, and the devil (Eph 2:2-3). Every one is born into the world as a son or daughter of Adam (Rom 5:12-19). Therefore, all people enter into this world as slaves of sin (Rom 6:6, 17, 20). Their wills are in bondage to evil, and hence they have no inclination or desire to do what is right or to turn to Jesus Christ. God, however, because of his amazing grace has “made us alive together with Christ” (Eph 2:5). This is Paul’s way of saying that God has regenerated his people (cf. Tit 3:5). He has breathed life into us where there was none previously, and the result of this new life is faith, for faith too is “the gift of God” (Eph 2:8).
Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation.
Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation. Paul describes the conversion of the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 1:9, “For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.”
Sinners are converted when they repent of their sins and turn in faith to Jesus Christ, trusting in him for the forgiveness of their sins.
Jack
February 12th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Sanders’ comment regarding taking responsibility for your own beliefs is an oversimplification I think. There are comparatively few people who will seek out a viewpoint on their own with no guidance or influence from others. So if you are influenced by someone’s preaching or teaching, then there is always a chance that they may lead you astray.
The chance is greater from those that are encouraged less to develop alternative sources of learning, questioning or accountability. Some church environments are like this to a greater or lesser degree. Some positively encourage debate and doubt - and some encourage acceptance of the “orthodoxy”. Neither is wrong and both are vulnerable to lead into heresy for different reasons.
February 12th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
I wasn’t suggesting that people develop their own beliefs without outside influence. In fact, my comments were not about people’s beliefs as such. They were about the degree of self-insight and self-awareness of their own state of mind.
The point is that the greater the control developed over one’s mind, the less influenced one can be by emotional and political maninupaltion. I was making the observation that people in Hillsong and other church environments seemed to be uninterested in this path of spiritual development. Which seems to be curious given that churches of whatever nature are there for the spiritual development of their members, whether they encourage debate or not being beside the point.
February 12th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
It’s more as if people attending these institutions are almost continually relying on external input and guidance for their own spiritual development. That the’re developing more attachment and conditioning when they should be going the other way - becoming non-attached (not detached) and freeing themselves from conditioning.
It seems to be a perverse way of personal development - where does it come from, I wonder, when we supposedly live in an individualistic society?
February 14th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Hello all,
I’m presently enjoying emails from disaffected Hillsong members, who are opening themselves up to the possibility Hillsong is not just an anointed blessed machine.
Fun and sad at the same time.
Looks like I’m the gatekeeper helping people get out….
February 14th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Good on you emblazoned =)
February 14th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Ahhh, at last your ministry is bearing fruit, Grasshopper!
See Lance, my faith was well placed.
February 15th, 2007 at 2:04 am
“….Grasshopper!”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JP1Y-tIJ370
February 15th, 2007 at 6:45 am
Very good Lance, very good!
February 16th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Prosperity Preaching: Deceitful and Deadly
By John Piper February 14, 2007
When I read about prosperity-preaching churches, my response is: “If I were not on the inside of Christianity, I wouldn’t want in.” In other words, if this is the message of Jesus, no thank you.
Luring people to Christ to get rich is both deceitful and deadly. It’s deceitful because when Jesus himself called us, he said things like: “Any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). And it’s deadly because the desire to be rich plunges “people into ruin and destruction” (1 Timothy 6:9). So here is my plea to preachers of the gospel.
1. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that makes it harder for people to get into heaven.
Jesus said, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” His disciples were astonished, as many in the “prosperity” movement should be. So Jesus went on to raise their astonishment even higher by saying, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” They respond in disbelief: “Then who can be saved?” Jesus says, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God” (Mark 10:23-27).
My question for prosperity preachers is: Why would you want to develop a ministry focus that makes it harder for people to enter heaven?
2. Do not develop a philosophy of ministry that kindles suicidal desires in people.
Paul said, “There is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.” But then he warned against the desire to be rich. And by implication, he warned against preachers who stir up the desire to be rich instead of helping people get rid of it. He warned, “Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs” (1 Timothy 6:6-10).
So my question for prosperity preachers is: Why would you want to develop a ministry that encourages people to pierce themselves with many pangs and plunge themselves into ruin and destruction?
3. Do not develop a philosophy of ministry that encourages vulnerability to moth and rust.
Jesus warns against the effort to lay up treasures on earth. That is, he tells us to be givers, not keepers. “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19).
Yes, we all keep something. But given the built-in tendency toward greed in all of us, why would we take the focus off Jesus and turn it upside down?
4. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that makes hard work a means of amassing wealth.
Paul said we should not steal. The alternative was hard work with our own hands. But the main purpose was not merely to hoard or even to have. The purpose was “to have to give.” “Let him labor, working with his hands, that he may have to give to him who is in need” (Ephesians 4:28). This is not a justification for being rich in order to give more. It is a call to make more and keep less so you can give more. There is no reason why a person who makes $200,000 should live any differently from the way a person who makes $80,000 lives. Find a wartime lifestyle; cap your expenditures; then give the rest away.
Why would you want to encourage people to think that they should possess wealth in order to be a lavish giver? Why not encourage them to keep their lives more simple and be an even more lavish giver? Would that not add to their generosity a strong testimony that Christ, and not possessions, is their treasure?
5. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that promotes less faith in the promises of God to be for us what money can’t be.
The reason the writer to the Hebrews tells us to be content with what we have is that the opposite implies less faith in the promises of God. He says, “Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you.’ So we can confidently say, ‘The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?’” (Hebrews 13:5-6).
If the Bible tells us that being content with what we have honors the promise of God never to forsake us, why would we want to teach people to want to be rich?
6. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that contributes to your people being choked to death.
Jesus warns that the word of God, which is meant to give us life, can be choked off from any effectiveness by riches. He says it is like a seed that grows up among thorns that choke it to death: “They are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the . . . riches . . . of life, and their fruit does not mature” (Luke 8:14).
Why would we want to encourage people to pursue the very thing that Jesus warns will choke us to death?
7. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that takes the seasoning out of the salt and puts the light under a basket.
What is it about Christians that makes them the salt of the earth and the light of the world? It is not wealth. The desire for wealth and the pursuit of wealth tastes and looks just like the world. It does not offer the world anything different from what it already believes in. The great tragedy of prosperity-preaching is that a person does not have to be spiritually awakened in order to embrace it; one needs only to be greedy. Getting rich in the name of Jesus is not the salt of the earth or the light of the world. In this, the world simply sees a reflection of itself. And if it works, they will buy it.
The context of Jesus’ saying shows us what the salt and light are. They are the joyful willingness to suffering for Christ. Here is what Jesus said, “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. You are the salt of the earth. . . . You are the light of the world” (Matthew 5:11-14).
What will make the world taste (the salt) and see (the light) of Christ in us is not that we love wealth the same way they do. Rather, it will be the willingness and the ability of Christians to love others through suffering, all the while rejoicing because their reward is in heaven with Jesus. This is inexplicable on human terms. This is supernatural. But to attract people with promises of prosperity is simply natural. It is not the message of Jesus. It is not what he died to achieve.
Source:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/1993_Prosperity_Preaching_Deceitful_and_Deadly/
© Desiring God
Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: http://www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.
In light of the messages preached in many Large Churches, please feel free to comment about this article I found.
February 16th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Very good, Grace Required.
Only the Blind, and the Blind leading them cannot see the deceitfulness of Prosperity theology.
February 16th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Sorry that was GROS - not GR!
February 17th, 2007 at 4:44 am
Fantastic article, Get Rid of the Spin!
February 17th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
“How I walked away
By Austin Miles
Before being “saved” and initiated into the better life with Christ,
I enjoyed a wonderful career as a circus ringmaster. I had money,
a high public profile, respect from my peers, and most important of
all, a happy family.
My flamboyant, carefree lifestyle attracted the attention of the born-again
Christians who dedicated themselves to pointing me to Christ. I found
their love and concern for me, a stranger, impressive. Maybe they
were right. There had always been a nagging feeling inside of me that
maybe, just maybe, I had been missing out on the true meaning of life
by not accepting Christ. If I did release some of my independence
and self-reliance, perhaps God would indeed be able to do a real work
in my life. By trying to do it on my own, in my own strength, I had
actually restricted my possibilities.
It became a question of priorities. Maybe too, this would settle down
the worrisome insecurities I had played host to since my early childhood
of rejection. The born-agains swiftly zeroed in on this vulnerable
spot and went to work to soothe those feelings. They assured me that
God loved me despite my imperfections that brought on these insecurities.
I would feel complete with Christ and this would eliminate my feelings
of inadequacy.
My new Christian friends overwhelmed me with their love and acceptance,
as they guided me toward their intended goal - recruitment. Because
of their outward show of gentleness, love, and compassion, and by
virtue of their professed relationship with God, I felt I could trust
them completely.
Somehow, the information that the circus ringmaster had become a born-again
Christian made national news, and representatives of the Assemblies
of God church made it a point to greet me in every city and town where
I appeared with the circus. They asked me to give my testimony in
their churches as I traveled through.
The postitive feedback from all of the church members confirmed my
calling. I heard the words, “I can see that God has His hand on you
and has anointed you,” over and over again. Others told me that they
felt the hand of God give them a healing touch as I spoke. At last,
my real purpose in life had been defined, and the supreme acceptance
that I had so long sought had come to me. Like an addictictive drug,
I wanted more and more of it as I allowed myself to become totally
immersed in this church setting, accompanied by haunting gospel hymns.
Shortly after my born-again commitment, cancer struck me. It made
no sense to me that this could happen right after dedicating my former
selfish life to Christ. The Assemblies of God declared that this was
an attack of the devil to stop me from serving God. Furthermore, God
allowed this to happen to show me His healing power! Next, they hustled
me off to an Assembly of God-backed Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship
International meeting, where an evangelist with the gift of healing
would pray for me.
All the Pentecostals I knew, including my daughter’s piano teacher,
proclaimed that when I returned home from that meeting, I would be
completely healed. With such an elaborate support system around me,
I found myself primed and ready to receive it. After the evangelist
prayed for me, I felt a rush of adrenaline go through my body. Excitement
was at its peak. With prompting, I agreed in front of the audience
that God had healed me. Praise the Lord!
Following the prayer, I was told to hold on to my healing. If any
of the old symptoms connected with the cancer should crop up, they
advised me, I should reject those false symptoms as a temptation of
Satan to get me to turn loose of my healing. Convinced that what these
loving people told me was true, I discontinued medical help.
Out of gratitude to God for my healing, and at the nudging of Assemblies
of God leaders to acknowledge my faith in God, I began giving large
sums of money to the church organization. My wife vehemently objected
to my involvement with this evangelical religion and to the huge cash
donations I was giving to them.
These Pentecostals who had worked their way into a close relationship
with me advised me to associate only with fellow believers in order
to protect my faith. My total healing, of course, rested in my faith.
The devil, they told me, who is the prince of this world, would try
to steal it, and the devil works through people who are close to you.
For my own protection, I needed to surround myself only with born-again,
spirit-filled Christians.
I began dropping good friends that I had known for years because they
might possibly, even unintentionally, deter me from the faith. I spent
every minute I could in church. While traveling I would seek out preachers
on my car radio. I fervently read my Bible.
When my wife became more vocal in her objection to my involvement
and financial support of the church, every one of my new “family members”
told me the same thing. My wife was of the devil! Satan knew that
Go dhas chosen me before I was even born to be a minister. Satan cleverly
put that woman in my life early to thwart the great ministry of miracles
God would entrust me with. By this time, I was so hooked on the Bible
and church that I agreed with them, that since my wife wasn’t with
me in my faith, she was against God and of the devil. My marriage
ended in divorce.
Without my wife standing in the way, I made even larger cash donations
to the Assemblies of God. They got it all. My entire life savings.
Once they got all my savings, their conduct towards me changed drastically.
To my horror, I began to see the church for what it really was - the
hypocrisy and severe sexual problems with the leaders. I am the individual
who walked in on Jim Bakker frolicking naked with the three nude young
men in the PTL health club. I saw the phoney financial crises, the
millions of dollars collected for non-existent overseas ministries.
Shocked and feeling like a fool, I left Christianity and the church
for good.
I paid a heavy price for engaging in the born-again Christian fantasy.
Not only did this involvement result in the destruction of my family,
my life savings, and my health, but it also took a heavy toll on me
emotionally when I realized that I had participated in the ultimate
fraud. I had been had, at a terrible cost.
When my bubble burst I suddenly felt very alone, torn out of the mainstream
of life, and isolated. The friends who had taken over my life for
10 years, to the exclusion of all others, would no longer talk to
me. What I had considered to be deep friendships turned to instant
hate. I received threatening phone calls at all hours and obscene
mail from my former brothers and sisters.
Bruised and shaken, I thought I must be the only one in this world
undergoing such an experience, to think certain thoughts, or to question
established authority. What hurt me the most was to learn that the
church people never did love me. It proved to be later, that they
really hated the circus and everyone connected with it. They merely
tolerated me for the money they expected to get from me, and the publicity
advantage to their involvment with me.
This was positively the most painful time of my life. Shadows of darkness
fell heavily around me, accompanied by the disconsolate intimation
that nobody cared, agreed, or even believed my report. I hesitated
to share these feelings and frustrations for fear of opening myself
up to criticism and ridicule, launching more of the self-doubt injected
in me by the church. To take a stand in the matter publicly would
have been more intimidating. This confusing and grievous time proved
fertile ground for depression to nourish and grow to alarming heights.
What’s more, I found myself in the midst of a struggle with my health.
Perhaps I had not been healed after all. The church had absolutely
no concern over that. They got the money, even tearing apart a family
to get it. That was all they cared about, even if it cost me my life.
Tyring to break a cemented mindset, created by ten years of Pentecostal
brainwashing, is extremely difficult. I found myself being pulled
like a robot to my Bible and flipping pages to hungrily read scripture
verses, any verses. It had become a necessary fix that I could not
do without. The withdrawal symptoms were fierce.
What helped me the most was to learn that I was not alone in my disillusionment.
Hundreds, thousands of people have gone through similar experiences
and inner conflict. The book _Holy_Terror_ by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman
(Delta Books) started me on the road to recovery. To read the testimonies
of people from all walks of life who had been fed the same lines that
I had, in this carefully orchestrated recruitment program, helped
to reaffirm the truth about these Christian zealots.
Madalyn Murray O’Hair, whom I had met on a television program, gave
me a copy of _The_Bible_Handbook_ (American Atheist Press) which lined
up the hundreds of contradictory scripture verses side by side. This
especially had a positive effect since it showed me the gross inconsistency
of the Bible, while at the same time satisfying my addictive need
to read it. I highly recommend this method of withdrawal. It works.
_The_X-Rated_Bible_ by Ben Akerley (American Atheist Press), “A Christmas
Sermon” by Robert G. Ingersoll, and a subscription to _American_Atheist_
magazine all became a part of the healing. These publications show
us beyond doubt that the church and Christianity are lies. This is
the most important of all. Once this is fully comprehended, the guilt
feelings must depart and find another victim. Skipp Porteous, with
whom I bercame aquainted later, publishes two excellent newsletters,
_The_Freedom_Writer_ and _Walk_Away_.
The writing of my own book, _Don’t_Call_me_Brother_ (Prometheus),
completed my reentry into life. The hundreds of letters I have received
in response to my book, many from disillusioned ministers, showed
me that perhaps I was not the colossal failure to God and man that
I thought I was.
A final problem had to be faced. My health continued to deteriorate,
with discomfort so great that I finally sought the medical help that
I had neglected for possibly too long. The tumor was found, the cancer
confirmed. Eighteen years (along with my savings account) had passed
since I had been stricken. The type of cancer I had would normally
be fatal within ten years. To dare even hope that the deadly disease
had not spread would have seemed naive.
Early Monday morning, September 11, 1989, I faced the radical surgery
that would determine my future. The five-hour operation, performed
by three doctors, was 100 percent successful. They got it all. Incredibly,
the cancer had not spread, despite overwhelming odds. After two days
in intensive care, my rapid and complete recovery astonished everyone.
I was damn lucky. Not everyone who believed the church for a faith
healing has come out that well. During my recovery I wrote another
book, _Setting_the_Captives_Free_ (Prometheus). I will continue to
write and speak out against the church in books, newspaper articles,
and media interviews.
I have managed to reclaim my life and I am happy again. I keep my
new family protected from any Christian intrusion. Now, when an individuals
tells me that he’s a born-again Christian, I say, “Thanks for the
warning.”
The church-god is the creation of man - in man’s own image. One does
not find the real God through man-made church rituals. God is only
found in the individual heart. As long as He remains there, He can
work wonders.”
From http://www.skepticfiles.org/fw/miles.htm
February 17th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
The http://www.skepticfiles.org/index.htm site lists the following helpful resource:
‘cultinfo directory Cult information. Every religion is a cult. Every religion meets the primary, secondary, and tercerary definition of contemporary word usage of the term “cult.” These files cover all cults, not just those that warring cults like to call cults. ‘ [sic]
Would you describe Riverview and Hillsong as a cults. Phil Baker and Brian Houston seem harmless individuals. They don’t seem to be charismatic or even particularly good speakers; they seem to lack the skills and/or personal qualities required to become cult leaders.
February 17th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
I should also add that the Riview and Hillsong music is bland.
The devil still has the best music.
February 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
“Would you describe Riverview and Hillsong as a cults.”
Revenue church was a cult, but I think mainly through the influence of Sy Rogers ..it’s backed off from some of the more extreme aspects of the pente cult system.
Revenue would be more classed as a fringe Christian movement. It’s debatable whether it’s part of mainstream Christianity.
But Hill$ong is a cult….without question.
Some people will cry…’what? Hillsong a cult!?’… but most cults, like Hill$ong have a Christianity-related base to them.
The Branch Davidians in Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian are a good example of this.
It seems to take awhile for new religious movements to be classified as cults, but I’ve got no doubltthat in the coming decades as more becomes known about Hill$ong..and Christian City Church and C3i in particular..that they will be popularly known and accepted as cults.
I’m exploring at the moment the strong overlay of Hill$ong theology and Amway theology.
Yes, and their music is bland.
February 17th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Lance,
I disagree.
After spending four years there, Riverview Church is at the very least still a cult (it has not yet fully thrown off its WOF beliefs and associations) and come into full orthodoxy (the reason i believe is that the cost of Truth only found in orthodoxy would be too high in terms of numbers, financials, international travelling benefits etc).
At worst it is a family owned event marketing business - that provides a comfortable lifestyle for those in RV’s inner circle (ie. the beneficiaries /members of Inside Out ministries).
I relate strongly to the story of the “Ringmaster”.
February 17th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
And Lance you state “I’m exploring at the moment the strong overlay of Hill$ong theology and Amway theology”.
My conclusion is that Amway Theology IS Contemporay Church Theology.
February 18th, 2007 at 2:23 am
In terms of cult/non-cult…
Now that Revenue Church has realised that it’s full of clueless dweebs ..and needs to start giving them some solid teaching….I’m waiting to see an outline of what they’re going to teach them..starting this year.
Will it be word-faith fluff or evangelical semi-fluff?
Revenue’s current theology and philosophy is such a mish-mash of contradictory ideas that the only reason I fall short of calling Revenue a cult..is that its mindset is not coherent and cohesive enough to be cultish.
It justs seems to operate on ‘whatever Phil Baker is thinking at the time’..even if that contradicts with something that Phil Baker thought at another time.
This page probably sums it up the best.
http://www.riverviewchurch.com.au/church/distinctives.php
Revenue is very big on its ‘distinctives’…but if you read through the ‘what we believe’ and ‘core values’..very little if any of that is reflected in the general life or teaching of Revenue…which revolves around Baker rotating his 20 favourite word/faith-derived pep talks….with a mention of Christ at Easter and Christmas.
February 18th, 2007 at 2:26 am
“It’s weird to only have been part of a church body for four weeks and be trusted to do ministry. Maybe it’s just American culture, but it seems like Hillsong is very trusting of any student who makes it through the application review process. I’m serving in three different ministries already and it’s been fun, but it’s just strange that I’m serving in a church that I’ve only been a part of for a few weeks. It’s just kinda like, “Oh wow. You want me to be in charge of that? Okay…I can do that.”
From http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=43420574&blogID=231187778
February 18th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Lance,
Re Comment: 1761
You may be in danger of becoming what you despise - your response sounds like what I would expect from a rehtorical Contemporary Church Pastor.
Jesus said “let your Yes, be a Yes and your no be a No!”.
Please be a good example and say something like “I was wr-wr-wr-wrong. You are right Lionfish, Yes riverview is still a cult”.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
I’ll take a scientology questionaire offered by one of those nice people with the clipboards stalking people on the footpath in Murray St..and then I’ll compare and contrast cults.
February 18th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Riverview and Scientology are very similar.
Both have Leaders that promote themselves as reanisance men and of just about every discipline.
Scientology tries to relieve you of body thetans (bad spirits) accumulated over numerous past lives,
Riverview will try to relieve you of 10% of your assets over your lifetime going forward.
Both will sell conferences and courses that to enable you to optimise your potential…
Both will use celebrities (where ever possible) to promote their cause.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:59 am
Circumstantial evidence only, Mr Fish.
February 19th, 2007 at 1:00 am
Oh btw I have a growing group of Hillsong ‘moles’.
Some are getting financial records through the auditors, another is trying to approach the eladership for figures.
I’ll keep you posted.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
As long as you include the outgoing money as well as the incoming, I would consider the results as unbiased information.
February 19th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Absolutely. And the more detailed, the better.
Oh look here:
Hillsong Church 2005/06
Froma mole in KPMG, the independent auditors…
Total income
$56,843,657 came into Hillsong last year
Breakdown
45% Tithes and foundation giving
7% conference reg
6% college
27% music sales and royalities
5% welfare funding
10%other
Outgoing costs
66% went to pastoral care, misions and welfare.
24% to loan repayment
10% to admin
Assets
$105 million in land and buildings
February 19th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
$37,516,813.62 went to pastoral care, missions and welfare. I seriously can not see any results from that money unless you are talking about pastoral care being Brian and Bobbie having everything supplied for them first class of course.
Come on 37 Million dollars a year should have more effect then what seems to be done now.
It also shows just how much of a waste the building are, who needs to own $105 million in assets and have to pay over $13 million a year in loan repayments