hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 15th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
I am the “mike” that lance is referring to in his post. I was venturing into a yahoo Christian Chat room when I responded to a response made by Lance (aka QueerRadio) that since I was in Sydney I must attended Phil Pringle’s church (i recognise this was just light banter).
I responded by saying that I attended Hillsong Church. Lance then proceeded to inform me that he knew a number of “interesting” things about Hillsong Church. He even directed me to this particular website.
As a Christian it is disappointing to read about the bitterness and hatred that fills so many of your souls. Have you been wronged ? Possibly (I don’t know your individual circumstances so can’t comment). Have you been hurt ? Obviously. Do I discredit the hurt and pain you experience ? Not at all.
However we are all fallen creatures with our own problems. I myself, with Scottish ancestory, have a volatile temper (I get it from my mother and grandfather). Does it make me any less of a Christian ? I would think not. Is it something that I am continually challenged by and work on ? Of course. Does it still rear its ugly head ? Yes. Would it make me an ineffective pastor ? Well based on the discussion here yes it would. Does that mean I can’t minister to my friends, spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and the workings of the Holy Spirit ? I’ll let you come to your own conclusions and i’m sure you will.
The world is full of hatred for the gospel of Jesus Christ and anything that can be used against us will be. It seems as though Hillsong are experiencing the same sort of hatred. They are a successful Church and when something is successful people like to tear it down. As I said to Lance in chat last night when I recently terminated an employee the statement was made “I thought you were a Christian”. Just another attempt to discredit the fact that we truly are Christians. Yes we hurt others, yes we sometimes don’t do things in the most Christlike manner. But as long as our heart and souls are stirring towards perfection then I think we are making the sort of effort that Jesus asked of us.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
The ““I thought you were a Christian” remark was in reference to you supporting the behaviours of the leaders at Hillsong.
I made no responses in the chat to you having sacked someone.
Of course it would be entirely appropriate for a church to sack a Phil Pringle or a Brian Houston.
Someone even made the right move once and sacked Homer.
“I myself, with Scottish ancestory, have a volatile temper (I get it from my mother and grandfather).”
Another lame blame-shift…like the ‘typical alpha male’ blame-shift.
“Would it make me an ineffective pastor ? Well based on the discussion here yes it would.”
Yes it does. It most certainly would make you an ineffective and unsuitable pastor.
Without question.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
““I myself, with Scottish ancestory, have a volatile temper (I get it from my mother and grandfather).”
Another lame blame-shift…like the ‘typical alpha male’ blame-shift.”
Well what’s your excuse for being so disagreeable lance?
April 15th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Lance,
It appears to me that the abuse you have suffered from Christians in the past because you are gay has caused you some deep seated hatred and bitterness which you feel the need to inflict on others.
Fortunately your comments neither concern me or hurt me. It is a sad reflection of a person’s character when their own pain doesn’t allow them to move on with life.
I believe Oscar Wilde experienced the same sort of turmoil you did. He wasn’t particularly happy either.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Mike,
please do not lump all of us into your mental box of damaged people. I am radically in love with Jesus, and have been in ministry for years. I do not hate Hillsong for their success, but I abhor what I have personally experienced as a hurtful, and clearly unbiblical doctrine. My own wife has suffered at the false teachings that Hillsong embraces, and in a world that has given itself to the false god of consumerism, it breaks my heart to see those claiming to follow Jesus, following the same false god.
And how am I supposed to respond to this in a “Christian” way? I find myself convicted deep within my soul that this errant teaching, takes away from the gospel of the kingdom. That the prosperity gospel further victimizes victims, and promotes an unhealthy focus on wealth. I find their teachings in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ, and the example he showed us through his life.
So what do you recomend I do?
the rev
April 15th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Great post Rev.
Mike just because some of us iare prepared to speak out against these modern day Pharisees does not mean we no longer have any valid form of faith or are spiritual invalids.
While I can’t speak for everyone here, I certainly hold no ill attitude towards CCC or Pringle but on the other hand I have no hesitation in naming his deception and pointing it out to others.
If you saw someone heading for disaster wouldn’t you warn them?
I thank God for sites like this where people can come on and openly express their hearfelt views on these matters as no-one in the Mega-church system will give them the time of day.
April 15th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Amen and amen..
Rev: if you see my folks on sunday, tell em your a Christian Anarchist, and you believe Hillsong to be in direct opposition to Christs Teaching…
That should make for an interesting Ressurection Sunday!
April 15th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Sorry to be so daft guys but what is a ‘Christian Anarchist’?
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
A Christian Anarchist is a Christian who drinks alcoholic liquor and swears a little bit. They don’t over indulge in these habits, just enough to look cool. Some hard-core Christian Anarchists are junkies but these are rare. You will sometimes find them living in gay relationships (just like Lance and Phil Breadmaker, or Dan and Phil), however they will not openly flaunt their homosexuality.
Most of all Christian Anarchists like living on the edge. On the edge of poverty, on the edge of sanity or on the edge of the Christian faith.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
its funny coz its true…
April 15th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
I agree it is important to challenge one another. That is not the issue. However it seems that all the challenge is towards Hillsong. What about the pastor in the small Baptist church in country NSW who secretly logs onto the internet each evening and downloads teenage porn, what about the pastor in Queensland who is sleeping with the deacons wife, what about the Victorian pastor who is masturbating about his teenage son. Seems as though we are all too willing to attack others when we fail to look at ourselves. The Bible says to remove the log from your own eye before being concerned about the spec in your brothers.
Have you attained perfection Rev ? Have you dealt with all your issues with Christ and in perfection can now judge others in a clear and perfect manner ? If not I think you know what you should do.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
You’ve beem around, Mike. Name some names and then we can all discuss it.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Oh well I guess that is kinda me.
I am married with children though so the gay part is out.
I do drink alchol though - nothing wrong with that is there?
Swearing? Yes, the od one here and there slips out.
On the edge of the Christian faith?
I guess many would consider that I certainly do not.
In many ways Christ would have been considered a ‘Christian Anarchist’.
I mean think about it - here was a guy from Galillee (kind of like saying from some rural hicksville area) with 12 disciples claiming to be the son of God.
He spoke out vehemently against the established church of his day and even went so far as to drive the money changers out with a whip of all things.
Kind of like me walking into CCC and brandishing a firearm whilst simultaneously ripping the EFTPOS machines out of the wall and trashing the bookstore.
In the end the established church of the day couldn’t take anymore and so they crucified him…
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
whats the issue with Christian bookstores?
April 15th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Mike re your post - well said brother.
I believe you miss the point when you say we should not judge our brother.
One of the greatest false doctrines in the Adversary’s arsenal is the twisting of Christ’s admonition to be merciful in judgment, and twisting it into a doctrine that forbids God’s church from “judging the things which are within.” Here is that much distorted scripture:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again”
This is where most people stop but lets read on -
“First cast the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to cast the twig out of the eye of your brother”
We are exhorted to cast out false doctrine and heresy from within us Mike. Christ wants us to get the moat out of our brothers eye.
But Christ will not tolerate hypocrisy. Get the beam out of thine own eye first!
“For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person”
1 Corinthians 5.14
Does that sound like Paul thought that Matthew 7:1-2 meant that we were not to judge sin and heresy in our midst?
No Paul tells us to put away from among yourselves that wicked person, the one who “abideth not in the doctrine of Christ”.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
whats the issue with Christian bookstores?
Well there’s lots Mr None.
Have you seen Dr Pringle’s book titled ‘Keys to financial excellence’.
Well it’s a load of crock.
I have written a scriptural refutation to his chapter on tithing.
You can read it here -
http://squarecircles.blogspot.com/2006/04/keys-to-financial-excellence.html
The problem is that many of these ‘Christian’ books are just so full of half truth it’s not funny.
Paul tells the Corinthian church the things of God are not for sale -
“For we are not as the majority, who are peddling the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God in Christ, are we speaking” 2 Corinthians 2.17.
The word translated ‘Peddling’ here is a Greek word Kapeleuo and means to retail, merchandise and make money by selling.
It’s pretty clear Mr None!
April 15th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
Umm, if these “Christian bookstores” are peddling books that are not of God, then they’re ok, aren’t they? There just like any commercial enterprise.
Get you logic right, Wiggy!
April 15th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Umm, if these “Christian bookstores” are peddling books that are not of God, then they’re ok, aren’t they?
There just like any commercial enterprise.
Get you logic right, Wiggy!
hah - good call anonymous!
Problem is the author believes he/she has this ‘divine revelation’ and people get sucked into it.
If they truly believe they have the mind of God on a particular matter they SHOULD not sell it.
Get my logic now?
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
Mike, Those people aren’t writing books with names like “You need to screw your neighbors wife” Or “you need more porn” If they did, you would hear me saying they are in error as well.
As to the judging part, Wiggy has applied scripture very well. And I am willing to be judged by my measure of judgement. How do I measure up to the calling of Jesus? Well I am struggling Mike, but I am not walking another path and telling people its God’s.
Mike, what do you say about those people you mentioned? If a pastor leaves his wife to marry the church secretary should we be silent and “not judge” him because we too are sinners? If someone preaches that Jesus was just a man, and nothing more, and never raised from the dead, should we say nothing because we struggle with sin and errant teachings ourselves? Brian is preaching the gospel, but adding on to it, and turning the message of the kingdom into a worldly message of consumerism, and capitalism.
Wiggy,
Christian anarchism is the belief that there is no kingdom but God’s, that we are called to follow a lifestyle that rejects the kingdoms of men, and refuse to operate in the false power of force, or position. That we can exist in true community, and servant leadership. You can find many wonderful people at jesusradicals.com and just so everyone knows, I drank and swore long before becoming an anarchist.
Monk,
I think I did tell your parents I was an anarchist, and I also said the prosperity gospel was crap, but I am not sure if your mum was there. I will not be speaking of these things tomorrow however.
the rev
April 15th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
Rev,
Judgement is an interesting topic. What about James 4:11 which says “Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.”
Are not many here possibly not adhering to this passage of scripture. Of course many would say that Brian is not a Christian and therefore not a brother. However 2 Timothy 19 says that “The Lord knows those who are his” so it is not really our place to be determining whether someone has received Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit or not.
In 1 Corinthians 4:5 the Lord says “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.” So why are we judging Brian and Hillsong before the appointed time. Will not the Lord Almighty bring all things to light. Including the sins of the pastors in those towns I mentioned before. Do we know the hidden motive’s of Brian, Rev, Geoff, Lance or anyone else ?
Just some thoughts
April 15th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
This judgment thing is worthy of another thread in my opinion… perhaps its just me… So much sinful behaviour and abuse is tolerated in the name of this fallacy. I dont even believe it myself, but still balk at it because its been bred into my veins..
Someone said to me last week, You shouldnt critisize the Church!
Why not? I relpied
Coz… Its Gods Church
Does God prefer my honesty, or my silence?
There was a pause in the conversation..
It is this mindset that allows so much abuse and bad behaviour to continue. it oppresses people and keeps them from thinking for themselves. from testing the spirits themselves. Oh! we have a pastor now, he tells us what to think> I offered as an example, to illustrate my anger, the millions of indians ( of various continents) that were murdered in the name of Christ… You know what the response was?
That was then, we are here now…
Was it the Marxists who said that religion was opium for the masses?
Good luck tomorrow Rev : )
April 15th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Mike, so are you saying you judge no one? Aren’t you judging me for judging brian? It is a ridiculous arguement. If brian is preaching heresy, which he is, he should be called on it. Why do so many people love to go to a place like hillsong? Because they make following their own greed and selfishness to be a blessing from God, it is disgusting.
So if I am sinning, God will convict me won’t he? But so far God has not, but continues to show me that God calls us to sacrifice, poverty and incarnation. So how does God talk to me? Through his word, no need for special revelation as far as I am concerned.
the rev
April 15th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Mike,
Some of us have gone through the proper channels .. but have been ’stone walled’.
The reason why we are discussing these things openly is that we cannot afford to fade away like shrinking violets is because people in the Churches deserve much better.
People’s spirituality, their realationships with people and their finances are at the core of every person. These leaders are abusing their own congregations en masse.
These people deseve better.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
I am judging you right now Lionfish…
I am judging you as correct
the rev
April 15th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
Did I judge you for judging Brian ? Isn’t that a judgment in itself..lol. Ok i am being facetious. I am merely saying that as Christians we need to be cognisant of the fact that God is the ultimate judge. He will reveal all things in the end and judge us accordingly.
If people don’t like me because I am a Christian or because I go to Hillsong or because I enjoy country music or because I drive a Porsche and a Bentley then hey that is really their issue. God will judge me according to his standards which are set out in scripture.
I have enjoyed the discussion and appreciate Lance directing me to this enlightening discussion on a night when I just happened to stumble into a Christian chat room.
Well enough from me. All the best in your walk with the Lord.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
well I hope you don’t leave, I am just getting started
How do you translate the scriptures where Jesus point blank tells you that you cannot inherit the kingdom of God while holding on to your wealth?
the rev
April 15th, 2006 at 11:31 pm
Rev,
That is a post I am willing to answer without going into too many personal details. You are possibly referring to the passage in Matthew 19 where Jesus says
“Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
This passage does not say that wealthy people will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact this logic would go against John 1:12 which says “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God”. This passage makes it clear that we must receive Jesus Christ and believe in his name and we will be become children of God and achieve eternal salvation.
The next question then is are we dependant on our wealth more than our dependancy on Jesus Christ. The answer can probably best be summed up in asking ourselves would we still dependant on the Lord Jesus Christ if we were required to give away all of our material possessions. Jesus knew in his heart when he asked the wealthy man this question that he could not and so his dependancy was on something other than Christ.
I’ll pose this as a personal question so please don’t take offense. But I find it interesting when people discuss my own personal wealth and possesions they do so without looking at themselves. My two vehicles are expensive but relatively inexpensive compared to my overall salary and wealth. An average Christian pastor drives a car worth around $5 - $15K and probably grosses between $40 - $60K per annum (including tax exempt fringe benefits). So for a lot of Christian pastors this equates to around 12.5 - 25% of their gross salary. My vehicles don’t come anywhere close to these figures. In fact much much less. One of them was a gift from a generous relative.
The Bible discusses the concept of tithing and a lot of Christians use 10% as a reasonable percentage. My givings to various charitable causes has well exceeded that over the years.
So do I hold onto my wealth. Well one could argue that having a home computer is holding onto wealth (when many in African countries do not have such a luxury and with the number of internet cafes, libraries, etc. it really isn’t necessary to own one). What about the stereo system, television, IPOD players, etc. that many people have. Are they essential for human living. Of course not. Do you have any of these possessions ? If so that could be considered to be holding onto your wealth.
What about CD’s. Are they essential when many in poorer families may do by singing and making home instruments for musical pleasure. Have you ever purchased a musical instrument such as a guitar. This could be considered to be excessive.
Caffeine consumption. An unnecessary stimulant. And yet we spend our money on consuming these beverages at $2.00 - $3.00 a cup when that is the average weekly wage in some third world countries. In fact the same amount that it costs to provide sight to a blind person in a third world country. Again this could be considered to be holding onto your wealth.
To me its the question of how dependant we are on our wealth and our dependency on Christ as to the amount of wealth. What is wealth anyway ? Everyone in Australia is wealthy compared to the average person in Sierra Leone. Why do we have to live in Sydney or Melbourne or Adelaide. Why can’t we live in a country town with all the internet technologies available to us to achieve our goal of the great commission. It is because we choose not to.
Again an interesting topic.
April 16th, 2006 at 12:10 am
Ahem…
I earn less than thirty grand a year, live in a one bedroon flat, dont own a car, and i still tremble at what would I do if I had to give up all my possessions. Yes, my computer, my t.V. even my electricity. what if I was forced to live under a tarpaulin in a park, find my own food, travel twenty kilometers to collect water every day..I am still humbled, even though I live near the bottom of our societies economic heap.. And it is a heap. interesting that you say your “average Pastor” earns at least 40 K… Oh yes, I know, dont muzzle the ox while its treading out the grain, heard that one before… where do your statistics come from, mike?
If you choose to live in this society, why not “Choose” to move to Sierra Leone for six months, see how the other 90% of the world lives.
April 16th, 2006 at 12:21 am
Well you certainly justified yourself, but not with scripture.
Jesus said you wil not inherit the kingdom of God, is this salvation in your eyes? Because I assure you it is not Jesus intent. Nor is the idea that if you spend a small portion of your wealth on a car its okay. The fact is you could drive a used toyota and give much more to the work of the Lord all over the world. I have lived under the poverty line for over fifteen years, with a wife and two children, yet we have not wanted for anything. The oppulence of Western culture is not a license to live without restraint.
But I can post scripture after scripture after scripture, of the words from JESUS own mouth calling us to a simple lifetsyle. What about the scripture that says that wealth chokes out the word of God in your life? What about the quote, Woe unto you rich for you have your reward now, what about Jesus saying not to store up for yourself treasures on earth?
The computer I write on is not mine, but a flat mates. And he shares this house with my wife and two children so we can live more cheaply and then give more or our lives and resources to the kingdom. I drive a mercedes, but as Urban monk can tell you it is thirty five years old, was given to us, and is hardly a luxury car not to mention the only one we drive.
I suspect that if Jesus asked you to give up your bentley and your expensive house in Sydney you would not do so, do you think you could?
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 5:06 am
. I have lived under the poverty line for over fifteen years, with a wife and two children, yet we have not wanted for anything….. where does scripture say anything about a poverty line??