hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Signposts is the personal website of Phil and Dan McCredden. We are involved in leadership at Northern Community.
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Recent entries
February 19th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
“A mole inside KPMG”….
If that is true then your “mole” has just breached major client confidentiality and, I would guess, could be in serious trouble, to the point of termination. KPMG would not tolerate a leak anywhere.
Can you elaborate on this “mole” and whether or not the information they have provided has been previously published for public consumption? This is very serious.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Easy tiger.
It’s the publically available figures.
February 19th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Emblazoned, if Hillsong have $105 Million in land and buildings by 2005/06 and that figure has already increased by about $27 Million for the Rosebery site, then they really are starting to make a joke of Matthew 6:19 which discusses “not storing up riches for yourselves here on earth”. I’m still trying to make sense of why they spend that sum of money on land/property. If they bothered to spend some of this sort of money on doing more “Street Teams” and many annual “Justice Projects” they probably would have had a significant amount of new Christian converts by now.
February 19th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Is that care of pastors or pastoral care?
February 20th, 2007 at 12:12 am
“Is that care of pastors or pastoral care?”
Precisely.
For purposes of the audit, where is the distinction?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:19 am
This is going to knock your socks off.
“Total income
$56,843,657 came into Hillsong last year”
“Outgoing costs
….24% to loan repayment”
If my maths is correct (and I did get an ‘A’ in year 12 General Maths at Geelong High School in Year 12 in 1984) then Hill$ong needs $262, 355 and 34 cents coming in EACH WEEK OF THE YEAR….JUST to service loan repayments…before they can do anything else.
This train wreck…..is bound for glory…this train wreck……
February 21st, 2007 at 9:41 am
Interesting new development from a slick e-mail forward doing the rounds in Brissy with an ex-Newsboy [I think] and a host of Evans family members [connected to Paradise?]. Names are David Evans, John James, Alex Cottrell. can anyone illuminate us on who these folk are?
Anyway the breathless email reads:
Hey!
His Church is coming!
Just want to let you know about an exciting occasion we have here in sunny Brisbane.
It’s regarding the preliminary start of services for our future church called “His church –its Jesus’ church”.
On March 4th this year, a group of our family and friends are joining together to plan to launch a church.
We believe it will be unlike anything you’ve ever seen before.
It’s an opportunity to explore the potential of doing church vastly different to anything we’ve previously experienced.
So why are you getting this email? – cutting to the chase, without waffling on… We need your help.
We would love it if you would take the time to check us out http://www.hischurch.com.au
Please forward this on to as many people as you think might be interested in discovering the possibilities.
Prayerfully consider partnering with us on the outset of this cause. Details below..
the website contains a no-holds barred list of needs:
HERE IS HOW YOU CAN MEET THE CURRENT NEEDS
Urgent immediate needs have a (*)
*Start up wages for David Evans
*Start up wages for John James
Start up wages for Alex Cottrell
*Intern wages for part time staff - secretary/admin, production manager, worship director.
Need to pay for designing, shooting and editing of video animation for the churches opening video sequence.
*Need to pay the rental of the cinema facilities each week.
*Need to cover the cost of church 3d logo design. NEED WAS MET
*Need church office printer/fax/scanner. NEED WAS MET
*Initial Web site design and hosting NEED WAS MET
*Need “rollup banners” and large wall banners for cinema church foyer
*Need to cover costs of two weeks radio promotions for the start of the preliminary church services.
*Need portable staging for the front of the cinema.
*Urgently Need a church vehicle for John James to travel each day from Sunshine coast to Brisbane. Approximately 78,000 km in the next 9 months. Must be auto with cruse control and air.
*Urgently Need a van to carry the church production equipment - public address system/video/lighting equipment etc. Fully enclosed cab with approximately 12 cubic meters load capacity. Seats 4. Air
*Need church Logo embroidered onto team wear. NEED WAS MET
Need to pay for artwork and printing of church stationary (letterheads, business cards, brochures, newsletter shells, DL giving cards etc).
Monthly payments of mobile merchant eftpos facility.
*Need trestle tables for the foyer and white table cloths
*Need a church drum kit.
*Need a church keyboard.
*Need children’s church equipment and resources.
*Need someone to provide and service a financial loan facility to cover the lease of the churches production equipment - sound, lights, video projection etc approximately $145,000 over 5 years
Need CD/DVD duplication system (Primera Bravo Pro Disc Publisher) for providing resource for sale of our services.
Need fuel for church vehicles
Need to cover rego and insurances maintenance checks and one set of tyres for church vehicles
Need office facilities near to the airport to host the duel role of small weekly meetings and normal weekly office functions.
Need Gloria Jeans coffee cart for pre and after church refreshments and smaller coffee machine for church office.
Need wide screen HD video cameras and video switcher + talkback headsets
Need 1 Mac Pro computer and Final cut pro software for video editing for digital TV program.
Need 2000 square meter warehouse with offices and enough room for children church. Toilets downstairs. Must be in the airport precinct.
Need manufacture of tiered seating structure to fit warehouse auditorium
Well there you go, why not get your credits cards out right now, and help these guys build a church overnight. Despite everything said against it on this site I’m sure your cup of blessing will run over if you help give these guys what they want. And lets face it, Brisvegas has a shortage of chruches. We desperately need another large mall church chocablock full of Christian celebrities. C’mon signposters! Dig deep!!!
February 21st, 2007 at 9:49 am
OK some more diging tells me John James is founder and former lead singer of the Newsboys, David Evans is a singing evangelist and his flashy website tells us:
“About David Evans — He is what you would say ‘a pioneering veteran’ of the contemporary Christian music scene in Australian that specializes in praise and worship and evangelism. Over the last 20 years he has been an integral ingredient in helping to establish most of Australia’s major Christian movements e.g. Youth Alive, Hillsongs and Planet shakers. David has always used his songs and worship to set an atmosphere of faith ready for his message. Since 2000, David has been specifically contracted as a consultant to various significant churches specializing in the development of their creative ministries departments. Always looking ahead for the next move of the Spirit, David continues to seek new initiatives to expand Christ’s influence over the nations.
David is an ordained minister with the Assemblies of God in Australia. He’s a graduate of The A.O.G national bible college “Commonwealth Bible College” majoring in Missiology. David’s primary calling is to evangelism. As a singing preacher, David has seen thousands turn to Christ across the world”
This would seem to be a major AOG development in Brissy and a challenge to some of the existing big hitters like Garden City, especially if they situate themselves at an airport precinct, designed to be a major regional hub church no doubt.
Anybody know of the relationship between the Paradise Evans family and the His Church Evans’ses?
February 21st, 2007 at 9:52 am
Gee, this church sounds totally different to any church I’ve ever come across….. Radical - I’d better dig deep…..
February 21st, 2007 at 10:12 am
Dave Evans is the brother of Russel Evans (Planet Shakers) and is related to Andrew Evans. Dave was a large part of Youth Alive SA before moving to Queensland. They all started at Paradise.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:20 am
Just read their website - made me want to throw up! Just more arrogance and patronising of those on the “outer”. I think the only reason Jesus would visit this church would be to upturn all the tables…. (And perhaps to encourage a few well meaning, good-hearted people there who are caught up in the hype….)
February 21st, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Deja Moo: The feeling that you’ve heard this
bull before.
February 21st, 2007 at 12:14 pm
It’s the ultimate of building a church in your own image.
Not sure what it’s got to do with God.
February 21st, 2007 at 12:34 pm
“Hey!
His Church is coming!”
Due to Signposts’ commitment to link absolutely everything back to the issue of homosexuality http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s2i15205 I’ve emailed the ‘hischurch’ site’s info link..and asked what their position is on homosexuality and people with a gay orientation.
Not that I’m interested in the answer..but I enjoy putting through the mind contortion of having to think through something non-shallow before failing to come up with a realistic answer.
I enjoy myself when I fire off these emails to wanky/clueless churches..and that’s the main thing.
I expect an answer along the lines of….’ooh….being gay’s not God’s best for you dude…Come into the light bro….’
February 21st, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Hmmm…interesting.
When you email ‘hischurch’ at the contact address provided info@hischurch.com.au ..it bounces straight back and says ‘Sorry, no mailbox here by that name’.
So hischurch is different…the first church in Australia that doesn’t actually exist.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:12 pm
I heard the ad for “His Church” on the radio yesterday. Anyway, interesting stuff on their website:
“There is no 15 minute speech on giving each week. Our partners are all accountable to their responsibilities and are joyful in it. They don’t tithe 10% either. The tithe was part of the law and in Christ was done away with. This was a revelation to us. Controversial to some due to the dogmatic current practices of churches around the world.
… Now we believe in giving, in radical generosity - however study this for yourself - there is no 10% requirement found in the new testament.”
- http://www.hischurch.com.au/TheresnoofferingshowdoIgive.html
So how does that go with the general AOG thing??
February 21st, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I don’t think the giving industry is based solely on the whole tithing issue. Believe you me, pente’s can rustle up far more than a measly 10% through other means of giving. ‘Sowing seeds’ and ‘love offerings’ and ‘Meet The Need listings’ [www.hischurch.com.au/Meettheneed.html] brings in more than the starting figure of 10%.
I think the Meet The Need page on their site complete with bank account details is a fairly obvious sign of how ‘open’ they will be in future about their ‘needs’. Have you ever seen a church website so brazen as this?!
A church bank account detail on a website is all your average aussie needs to confirm their suspicions about the church - well done guys!
Oh by the way, we have an old organ we don’t use anymore, can we drop it ’round?
February 21st, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Agreed, zulu. I also found the “meet the need listings” and the display of bank account details rather disturbing. However, given the emphasis many pente churches place on the 10% tithe, I found their comments to be rather interesting. They’ll no doubt get their money in other ways (they need to, given the mountain of stuff they want to buy!!), but dispensing with the 10% tithe is a pretty big step for their type of church.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Hischurch appears to be a serious attempt to do something different from the standard AOG “treat ‘em mean..keep ‘em keen” approach.
I’m sure there’ll be dodgy stuff connected with it….but I think it’s worth finding out more about them distancing themselves from tithe teaching for starters.
A quick glance at their promotional material suggests there is a cult aspect to them in the way they prepare people for leadership…..so…for both good and bad…it’s a group worth keeping an eye on.
I’m not convinced though that it’s as different as they seem to think it is.
Although it is Brisbane.
Going to work via a different route in Brisbane would be considered ‘radical’.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:41 pm
I’m lost as to how planting superchurches far away from urban connurbations [which you don;t seek to reach in anycase] fits intot he grand scheme of chruch planting. Surely you plant churches in relation to need in particular areas. The obvious need being a community which doesn’t have a church.
These churches seem to be about capturing the Christian market with the latest mojo and nothign to do with the actual needs of the community in proximity to their church.
Injecting celebrity Christians into the staff mix is bound to appeal to those in the know.
If I was a Brissy AOG leader I would be fuming, but as I’m not, I’m simply amused. It’s like the opening a new shopping cetnre, yet another consumer option for flaky Chrsitians.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Zulu in response to your question at #1777
I don’t know the other two but form David’s own website:
“David Evans — He is what you would say ‘a pioneering veteran’ of the contemporary Christian music scene in Australian that specializes in praise and worship and evangelism. Over the last 20 years he has been an integral ingredient in helping to establish most of Australia’s major Christian movements e.g. Youth Alive, Hillsongs and Planet shakers.
David has always used his songs and worship to set an atmosphere of faith ready for his message. Since 2000, David has been specifically contracted as a consultant to various significant churches specializing in the development of their creative ministries departments. Always looking ahead for the next move of the Spirit, David continues to seek new initiatives to expand Christ’s influence over the nations.
David is an ordained minister with the Assemblies of God in Australia. He’s a graduate of The A.O.G national bible college “Commonwealth Bible College” majoring in Missiology. David’s primary calling is to evangelism. As a singing preacher, David has seen thousands turn to Christ across the world”.
Jack
February 21st, 2007 at 2:52 pm
I expect it will have a strong creative arts emphasis given both Dave Evans and John James involvement. They’re both highly skilled musicians and singers/songwriters.
I have a lot of respect for John James. He took himself out of arguably the biggest Christian band at the time (Newsboys circa ‘Take Me To Your Leader’) to deal with alcohol addiction issues. He quit playing in front of 20,000 people a night and came back to Brisbane and sold lamingtons door to door while he got things sorted out.
February 21st, 2007 at 3:13 pm
dido - all due respect to John for the whole lamington deal and giving up stardom. However, it doesn’t assuage my concern at yet another church plant in Brissy.
The email forwards they have sent around are clearly designed for a Christian audience. Existing Christians from existing churches, thereby perpetuating the church hop ‘n shop consumer mentality.
He’d have to sell a whole lot more lamingtons before he paid penance for this contribution…
February 21st, 2007 at 3:55 pm
What did Jesus “need” to start up His Church?
A few people willing to follow.
Maybe the gifted evangelist could start doing a bit of evangelism, and worry about the theatre seats, sound equipment, mobile eftpos and Gloria Jean’s coffee later.
February 21st, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Janet - you obviously don’t get it, a Gloria Jeans cart is a neceassary Hill$ongesque accoutrement, now considered de’ riguer in any self respecting mega church. You are obviously still happy with granulated coffee in cheap white styrofoam cups.
Do you honestly think Jesus would drink granulated coffee? Sheez I’ve had it with you people!
Don’t forget the car, so that one of the pastors can commute from the Sunshine Coast: *Urgently Need a church vehicle for John James to travel each day from Sunshine coast to Brisbane. Approximately 78,000 km in the next 9 months. Must be auto with cruise control and air, and coffee cup holder to fit Gloria Jeans take away Grande size.
Suggestion: become a church that is sustainable before adding 3 pastors plus office staff plus cash for the: “designing, shooting and editing of video animation for the churches opening video sequence.”
Hey whilst we’re putting our needs up, I’d like:
1. New house on Sunshine Coast so that I don’t have to live near my parishioners either. There’s too mnay pains in the *****, please get me away from them.
2. New car to travel down from t he Sunshine coast, my little Korean runabout is NOT a good look.
3. Also want what they want: Need CD/DVD duplication system (Primera Bravo Pro Disc Publisher) for providing resource for sale of our services.
This is so I can sell my Sunday sermons and get paid twice, once for praching and twice for selling it to you suckers.
4. Also need “rollup banners” and large wall banners for church foyer featuring me.
5. Professional photo shoot for point 4 above.
February 21st, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Needs list of Jesus -
12 dedicated followers - make that 11, one is not that dedicated.
a fishing boat to preach from
dirt and spit- for mud to heal a blind man
fish - needed to get tax money from
fish (2) - to feed 5000 with
bread (5 ) - for same above
borrowed colt - every messiah has to travel in style
tomb - for 3 days only
We know Judas was the treasurer = but who was the worship leader, counseling pastor, 2iC, videographer, gaffer, and “best boy”.
February 21st, 2007 at 6:17 pm
‘Since 2000, David has been specifically contracted as a consultant to various significant churches specializing in the development of their creative ministries departments. Always looking ahead for the next move of the Spirit, David continues to seek new initiatives to expand Christ’s influence over the nations.’
pretentious..? moi?
Always looking ahead for the next move of the spirit????..contracted as a consultant???? seeking new initiatives????
what a load of crap!
It’s just more corporate put god in my career box make me sound good rhetoric. I’ve spent too long on the fringes being a diffuciult bugger in other peoples projects, it’s time I made some serious cash out of this sucker!
this must be a wind up..
February 21st, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Straining to look out for the best in everyone… they may not be bad people. It may simply be they’ve been totally brainwashed by a bad system… that this is their only imagination of how to “do church”.
Although… someone at this point may note that reading the gospels and making some kind of attempt to put into practice what they say is probably not a bad idea if one is “in ministry”.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:06 pm
http://www.reportage.uts.edu.au/stories/southside/hillsong1.html
‘Ms Grundy gave up her job managing an exclusive home wares shop in Double Bay six months ago. She now works full time for Hillsong Church as “Creative Design Co-ordinator” looking after the elaborate stage settings at the church’s two locations.
“It has been a massive life change, one that my friends outside the church cannot fully understand and it has caused some problems.”
One cause for concern amongst her friends, Ms Grundy said was the relatively small amount of pay she received from a church so obviously wealthy.
“Ten per cent of every member’s pay goes to the church- it’s a biblical principle,” she said.
“While I don’t make a great deal of money the church would never let me go hungry. I have never worked for love of money anyway.’
This is classic HS, give up your career, your friends, your life, give everything to the greedy selfish leaders of HS in the name of ‘extending the kingdom’. In five years or maybe sooner, she’ll be upstaged by another funky chik and be wondering where her years have gone. She’ll be sad that they took all she had to give and wonder why her new friends don’t like her anymore. Deception.
Jesus came to give us life and life abundantly. not for us to give that life to someone else’s dream.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Fair call Janet, I wish to play the man not the ball to use a sexist sporting analogy. I’ve not seen this level of brazenness before of “here’s our wish list - help us make it happen” appeal to whoever is out there.
Fair enough if you want to build a church, and have all those things. ?Incrementally any outift improves its level of equipemtn etc as they grow. This overnight style of setting up a church in such a public way warrants debate.
The fact that they are openly trawling through existing churches to attract Christians is also worthy of a rant.
If they have faith, rather than put a wish list totalling hundreds of thousands of dollars out, why not have enough faith to plant a church that will actually bring unbelievers into belief and build from there. Now there’s a unique concpet.
Only problem is its a lot harder than simply stealing other christians away from existing churches and getting them to cough up the dosh here and now.
If you want big faith why not pray for the phenomenon of the early church at pentecost?
Comment shave been made earlier about the musical pedigree of at elast two of the pastors. Fair enough, but I thought the primary attraction of a church was Jesus?