hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
March 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Former AOG big-wig Phillip Powell has just sent out this email..which starts with Phillip’s own take on FH ..followed by a forwarded email from the conservative Melbourne group Salt Shakers about AVB.
“This is an ABOMINATION that calls for immediate action and an immediate public statement by AoG in Australia.
My attention was recently drawn to the fact that Anthony Venn Brown’s website has additional disgusting disclosures about the evil of the late Frank Houston who was a paedophile. Why is AoG so silent about these things? Obviously it is very difficult when it’s an undeniable fact that the most visible AoG Church in Australia is pastored by the son of Frank Houston, who was the founder and father of CLC (NSW) the two most prominent Churches of which were renamed Hillsong.
We at CWM have long since been speaking out against these things as the many articles on our website testify.
Shame on Hillsong, CLC (NSW) and on Assemblies of God.
Yours sincerely in Christ who is our light, life and love and will be our JUDGE,
Philip L. POWELL.
http://www.cwmf.info
http://www.cwmfellowship.org
http://www.christian-witness.org
—– Original Message —–
From: Salt E-news
To: Salt E-News
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Salt Shakers E-News - Christians in mardi gras?
Please do not reply to this email address - send all replies to [ed - email address removed]
——————————————————————————–
From today’s Australian - Watching brief
STREWTH - http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21304574-25090,00.html
Sian Powell - March 01, 2007
Church on the [mardi gras] march
ORDAINED Assemblies of God minister Anthony Venn-Brown, who has preached at the Hillsong church, will lead the first openly gay Pentecostal marchers in this weekend’s annual Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras parade in Sydney. The dress theme will be denim, said the Christian, who still worships at Hillsong, but there will be no choreographed dance steps. And, so far, there has been no objection (or indeed any reaction at all) from his church. The most vociferous opposition to the parade has in the past come from the ardently Christian NSW politician Fred Nile, who usually prays for rain.
——————————————————————————–
Salt Comment
Please pray that this abomination – ‘Christians’ marching in this appallingly degenerate parade in affirmation of homosexuality – will not take place.
Clearly this is a political stunt by Anthony Venn-Brown, aimed at embarrassing the AOG church and Bible-believing Christians across Australia.
Questions for Hillsong and the AOG church in Australia.
Is he still ordained? – we don’t think so.
Can you be a Christian and an unrepentant, practising homosexual who committed adultery and now advocates homosexuality as acceptable to God?
Can you attend Hillsong and be an unrepentant, practising homosexual who advocates homosexuality? Perhaps.
But do Hillsong and the AOG condone the behaviour, the advocacy and the use of their name? We do not think so.
We would like to know.
We would like to hear it publicly from the Hillsong and AOG leadership and preferably before Saturday’s mardi gras sleaze parade takes place.
If you attend an AOG church we would suggest you forward this to your leadership for comment.
Peter P Stokes
Co Founder & Executive Officer
Salt Shakers Inc
[ed - phone numbers removed]
http://www.saltshakers.org.au
============================================================================
SALT SHAKERS DOES NOT SEND UNSOLICITED ‘NEWS’ EMAILS!
If you are not a subscriber to our Email News Service then this
newsletter was probably forwarded to you from a friend or associate.
To join our Email News Service, just send a blank email to
[ed email address removed]
Alternatively to leave just send a blank email to
[ed email address removed]
In both cases you will be required to reply to a confirmation email
(as a security measure).
Permission is given to forward this message UNCHANGED and ONLY to friends.
Permission is also given to forward any PDF attachments UNCHANGED
(unless authorisation is sought and given).
SALT SHAKERS is a ‘Christian Ethics - Research, Education and Action Group’.
We are on the web at http://www.saltshakers.org.au.
SALT SHAKERS is helping Christians ‘Understand the Times’ (1 Chr. 12:32)
and equipping them to be Salt and Light to the community (Mat. 5).
=======================================================================”
One thing about being gay. It’s never boring.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm
HI Lionfish,
have been trying to find your mail just to say hi! hope you didn’t think i was being rude, just in light of current circumstances…well i think you understand…send me a mail and let me know how you are!!!
tanya
March 1st, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Tanya,
Nah! Did not think you were being rude at all, perhaps necessarily cautious and playful!
I was just mucking around myself!
i sent you an email to your ‘optus’ adreess - will resend thru tonite to your new address.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:37 pm
re 1854
Wow, that was a strange experience to almost be back in the room again listening to Bristlin’ Bob laying down the law of his feifdom. I was there many times sitting in the front row hoping for a morsel of magnificence to fall into my besuited lap, to turn me into more of a zealot for success.
Thank you Lord for bringing me out and opening my eyes to freedom.
It’s interesting how his control has become more refined than when I was there, he’s really into the detail now of personality traits which can help him to exert even more influence.
eg. what is now honour used to be priviledge, honour takes it to a higher level which makes you smaller. Complicated was Attitude which was much more of a wide description of where someone was at, whereas complication comes right into your personality, you will question yourself closer.
‘Accept the standards’ has taken the burdonsome concept of ‘excellence’ to a level of unquestioning submission. When excellence was the catch cry, at least you had a certain ammount of pride in achieving something, now it’s an even harder thing.
He hasn’t changed anything, the whole thing about your lack of job security, the pressure to not take a break, all of that stuff, but how sad is it that a man sits down and thinks of all these details of a person’s very being in order to make sure there is no corner of his or her life untouched by his control.
It reminds me of the intimate detail the nazis had during the second world war, they were very focused on minutiae. The whole thing about ‘what are we paying you for’, keeping you in submission, of course you felt like it was a privilege to work there when you first start, that’s because you still believe the lie that this is a ‘move of God’. Then you find out about the parallel worlds inhabited by certain people and the hard arse business stuff, it kills you, then you walk out of those staff meetings with tears in your eyes and go hide in your office for a bit.
When I was rescued from the streets of Perth where I could often be seen wallowing in vomit on the ground or with head lolling about out a car window as my long suffering wife drove us home yet again. Or lying on the sand at cottesloe late at night with a face covered in a mixture of blood, tears, sand and vomit, it was a loving new friend called Jesus Christ who came and changed me completely in about 2 weeks. I didn’t have to measure up to anyone’s standards in order for this to occur, it was a miracle to me and no ammount of fascist ravings by any power , money and narcissisticly depraved CEO is going to stop me from being a complicated person. Eph. 2:10, Arsehole ! there, I’ve said it !!
March 1st, 2007 at 8:45 pm
You’re right…it’s such a stark contrast between the grace freely offered by Christ..and the religious regime menancingly demanded by Houston.
What’s more, that kind of behaviour by a CEO would not be tolerated for long in a secular office, let alone a supposedly Christian organisation.
The word ‘arsehole’ that’s being used to describe Houston, is not an off-the-cuff ill-thought-through throwaway line.
Maybe it’s shocking for some Christians that an arsehole is leading one of their denominations. But it’s the truth.
And maybe it’s a warning sign about where the wider church in Australia is at, and what it’s prepared to tolerate from its so-called leaders.
March 1st, 2007 at 8:53 pm
And I’ve got to say…..the parallels between the bizarre hold that Brian Burke has over WA Labor MP’s..and the hold that Brian Houston has over AOG people…are uncanny.
March 1st, 2007 at 11:45 pm
“the religious regime menancingly demanded by Houston.”
Can you tell me his regime exactly? I know a few Hillsongers and they are quite happy there and don’t feel demanded upon at all. If there was a demanding regime then I see no reason why people would stay. It’s funny how you mob get these ideas that you are somehow right about everything and take the media so seriously. From reading some of these posts it looks like you think you’re the expert on everything. I’m not all that keen on Hillsong either but all you people do is sit here mud flinging. I wonder if people like Lance actually do anything useful with their life other than moan and complain. If you’re so passionate about this then why not actually get some real evidence and do something about it?
March 2nd, 2007 at 3:48 am
Bruce, maate…. I’m sure there are heaps of happy hillsongers, I was one too once. I’m not saying I didn’t have a lot of fun and meet some neat people and see some incredible things. It was also a choice to go there, no one forced me, and I did think I was on the cutting edge of what God was doing in oz, so I chose to make brian houston’s vision my own and his philosophy was one I completely agreed with. In the language of the time I was ’sold out’. I would have died for brian, I would have died for darlene and metaphorically did on countless occasions, I made the church my life and foolishly made my own life nothing, my own family welfare meant nothing to me, in short I was living a totally un balanced life and was a complete zealous prick.
I certainly don’t think I’m right about everything and also never take the media seriously, but if you go and get yourself a job at hs and do all that is required of you for a few years I feel quite confident that you would have a different take on things, probably more on a line with other people on this site. But then maybe you won’t, maybe you’ll love it and live happily ever after, everyone’s different.
It seems to me Bruce, this is an open forum where it is free to come and speak what you want, It just so happens that there are a lot of folks here who have a similar experience with churches and the professional christians in charge of them who are getting over things you do not understand. I’m not prepared to divulge the catalyst or the beginning of the process which led me to feel the way I do about hs now in this public place, but it is nice to find a ‘mob’ where one can read that there are other stories similar to one’s own. I can throw my meaningless bleat into the ring and help myself to move on and enjoy life.
It’s just not a simple as you think Bruce.
March 2nd, 2007 at 8:41 am
SIGNPOSTS MEDIA STATEMENT:
[removed at the request of Anthony Venn-Brown - make sure you mean what you post before you press submit - I won’t be as nice in the future.]
For more information it is advised that media agencies contact Mr Venn-Brown directly or refer to the revised (Feb 2007) edition of the book “A life of Unlearning”.
March 2nd, 2007 at 9:29 am
[removed at the request of Anthony Venn-Brown - make sure you mean what you post before you press submit - I won’t be as nice in the future.]
March 2nd, 2007 at 9:30 am
Hey, did anyone else see yesterday’s The Australian? In the ‘Strewth’ section it mentioned that Allen and Unwin had pulled Tanya Levin’s book…
Tanya, are you still floating around Signposts????
March 2nd, 2007 at 10:47 am
If you scroll back a couple of pages Bec, this was the subject of a fair bit of discussion yesterday. The crew as always are well onto such information.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:04 am
my bad…
I read the last few pages…didn’t see that one!!
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:12 am
The above media statements are partly in response to this statement found on the Hillsong website :
————————————————————————-
1 March 2007
Clarification on Reports Relating to Hillsong & Anthony Venn-Brown:
Tony Venn-Brown attends services at Hillsong Church occasionally but in no way do we support his views on homosexuality or his intentions for the Mardi Gras.
Reports that Tony has ‘preached at Hillsong Church’ are also misleading. Tony has only ever spoken at Hillsong Church’s predecessor, Christian Life Centre, prior to his being ‘outed’ as a practising homosexual some 18 years ago. At this time, Tony’s AOG credential was also revoked.
Brian Houston
Senior Pastor, Hillsong Church &
National President, AOG Australia
* To view the AOG’s position on homosexuality, please go to:
The AOG Statement on Homosexuality
———————————————————————–
Anthony is of the opinion that this statement is not truly reflective of the respectful acquaintenceship & dialogue he has with Pastor Houston & is most likely a “political distancing” generated primarily from his advisors / publicity consultant.
This problem has been caused by ill-informed & erroneous statements made in the media about Anthony’s ordination status & conservative reactionaries trying to stir Hillsong to publicly distance themselves when Hillsong had felt no need to comment prior.
We pray that they have not done mischievous & malicious damage to what had the beginnings of a productive & progressive relationship.
These people (conservative reactionaries) are not doing God’s work, they are blaspheming by using God’s name to legitimise their own out-dated prejudices.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:56 am
AVB is doing exactly the same thing now as when he was trying to be ’straight’.
Just as he engaged in wishful thinking that he could be heterosexual, he is engaging in wishful thinking that Hill$ong and the AOG are a bunch of Care Bears who have your best interests at heart..and are full of gummy bear love for anyone who walks in the door.
Reality check. AVB is a complicated person, who complicates things for Houston.
Houston is an arsehole. Houston hates complicated people and can barely tolerate them.
That media response from Houston (through Queen Maria) is not some kind of aberration, it’s not Hill$ong being caught out being grumpy on a Friday morning after a long week.
It is classic Hill$ong. Read through their other media responses. It’s how they deal with everybody.
I reckon it’s one of the hardest things to recognise that the ‘contemporary’ church is run by self-serving bastards….but the sooner you come to grips with the fact that…just as your sexuality isn’t going to change…that Hill$ong is not going to change its inherent arsehole orientation, then the happier and freer you will be in the long run.
I’m sorry AVB is going to have learn..(or unlearn) this about Hill$ong the hard way, but don’t say we haven’t tried to warn him about what these Hill$ong pricks are really like.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:59 am
“Tony Venn-Brown attends services at Hillsong Church occasionally ….”
Interesting spin from Hill$ong….because AVB says in the Life Matters interview that he’s part of a Hill$ong Connect group.
March 2nd, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Bruce, there are plenty of ex-happy Hillsongers here. We know the system quite well. I spent two years of my life involved in the church every single day of the week…which means i just might know a little bit about it.
I’d like to see Tanya’s book published……..
March 2nd, 2007 at 1:05 pm
In relation to Bruce’s comments. 1867
As an Ex Hillsong worker and also a professional counsellor who counsells many members in the Hills Distric who are trying to leave this church, this site is an outlet used by frustrated and hurt people who are trying to move on. Without this site or counsellors willing to help they will fall out of church life and away from God. Yes at times the comments made are bitter, but they are also very true. They have no other friends who are going to listen because their whole life is the HS church. They have been ostracised because of their comments and been labelled a traitor or back slider for doing so.
This site enables them to go through the whole process of removing themselves from this type of church system which is extremely difficult and can lead to depression and suicide. It may not be the greatest help staying here forever but you will see people come and go.
If you are having trouble coming to terms with it then I suggest you look at the increasing amount of numbers of members leaving the church forever. This site attempts to hold on to the slim hope that they will remain with the church.
Your comment about “if they are so passionate to do something about it” is also offensive. Many of them are so depressed because of the whole experience and are still frightened by the influence they belive HS has that they fear stepping out too far or are mentally unable to. This site helps them take those steps as well.
Sadly it keeps me in business. If you do need help and have left the HS church and finding it difficult to cope I am available at resolutioncounselling@hotmail.com
March 2nd, 2007 at 1:11 pm
There you go, straight from a professional counsellor who has confirmed he is counselling frightened Hillsong parishioners.
Irrefutable. It has been said.
March 2nd, 2007 at 2:35 pm
“Generosity is fantastic, but when it’s flashy, elitist and trying to prove something it’s hollow and unattractive, and again, the very people we’re wanting to help are likely to see right through it!” - Brian Houston. http://www2.hillsong.com/brianbobbie/default.asp?pid=1288
“A partnership with Hillsong Emerge can provide the human face to your business while delivering a competitive edge with business returns. Hillsong Emerge reaches many different communities that exhibit varying psychographics and demographics that range from business professionals to youths to those who are socially and financially excluded.
You may discover that one of our many initiatives aligns with your social responsibility profile, your market or your personal interest and may wish to partner in a longer term joint venture or on a specific component of a program. Your interest may be focused on a specific initiative or community, or you may prefer to take a broader general community approach. Contributions can be in the form of cash donations, sponsorship, pro-bono services, staff volunteers to name but a few.
However we partner, the relationship will provide mutual business and social benefit by leveraging each of our strengths.
Partnership benefits
Enhances your positive public image and reputation as good corporate citizen
Enhances your customer loyalty amongst socially conscious markets
Provides positive association with credible and successful programs
Augments your own public relations and marketing efforts
Promotes familiarity of your brand amongst the communities you invest in
Provides an ability to target specific demo/psychographics
Cost of attending to a social condition can reduce the cost of business operation
Enhances recruitment attractiveness
Improves morale amongst employees
Improves triple bottom line results
Cash Donations - minimal effort
maximum flexibility
In Kind Giving - promotes brand name and familiarity
increases consumer loyalty
Volunteers - promotes social spirit and team spirit
provides interesting, broadening experiences for staff
Pro-bono and mentoring develops professional skills and confidence amongst junior professionals
improves staff morale amongst professionals
attracts socially conscious professionals in recruitment activity
promotes familiarity with your services
Gift matching and payroll deductions
allows employees to be directly responsible for positive social influence
Promotional fundraising and marketing provides a medium for entertainment and promotion
provides an opportunity for marketing a unique message”
http://www2.hillsong.com/emerge/default.asp?pid=571
March 2nd, 2007 at 3:04 pm
“They have been ostracised because of their comments and been labelled a traitor or back slider for doing so.”
Can I ask who labelled them a traitor? Was it some of their friends or the church leadership?
“Your comment about “if they are so passionate to do something about it” is also offensive. Many of them are so depressed”
I wasn’t referring to the people who left, I mean the people who post here just criticising Hillsong all the time.
March 2nd, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Bruce I can see why you are perhaps struggling with this site. I did initially and still do with regards to some posts, and I am probably theologically diametrical to some of the higher profile posters.
However, this site has connected with me because I went through a terrible experience after developing a conscience within Rhema and asking questions.
The response to many of my queries and struggles to evaluate their practises and itternaces was either met with breathtaking patronism, dire warnings and accusations of being an ‘accuser of the brethren’ or sublime advice like “hey you can cancel that negative confession you made brother! Cancel it in Jesus name otherwise it will have power. Replace it with a positive confession! You are what you say!”
I lost all my friends and spent 6 months in a wilderness living in a city where I had no other connections. My crime was to to ask difficult questions [in BH terminology I was being ‘complicated’. My punishment was ostracization. 20 years on nothing has changed. I’d like to know where all those poeple who wrote me off as being a ‘Spirit quencher’ are now. I doubt very many of them survived the hype and are still buring bright.
When you are deep inside the fast moving and LARGE world of a megachurch, surrounded by pastel colours and beautiful people a site like this seems so against the grain and pathetic. It seems so negative.
However, just like I experienced, you don’t have the option of questioning and debating from within places like HS. And because people don’t have that option the offense and damage that happens only grows deeper. What you see here is probably to a large degree magnified repressed feelings being let out in a forum where you simply can.
I think sites like this where things are exposed and debated are important because in a small way it prevents churches from simply saying and doing whatever they want. Its not in the interests of even the most diehard Hillsonger to simply let BH and his team do whatever they want.
If you really are devoted to a large megachurch that you belong to, the best favour you can do for your celebrity pastor is make sure he is accountable. One day he might thank you for it. Ask Ted Haggard.
March 2nd, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Why I dislike Lance AND others like him!
After having been a good and faithful servant (Senior Pastor) in the AOG for two decades, I came across this site and began to read the many accounts of ‘abuse’ etc. sustained in the church – specifically AOG churches.
My reaction? It can’t be that bad … CAN it?
Answering that question forced me to reappraise a great many things in light of the stories I was hearing and reading about. Did I appreciate this … NO … at least not at first?
Then, after much deliberation, I started to post here …WOW!
That I wasn’t ready for! Like a pack of hungry sharks on a feeding frenzy, I was set upon! At least, because of my own hurt, that’s what it felt like!
My reaction … to try to bring some balance to the discussion … (playing the pastor) the result …well not very favourable.
Therefore I removed myself from these ‘vicious people’ and underwent a further period of ‘lone examination’ – just in case they were right.
I of course understood that ‘hurting people (inevitably) hurt people’. I simply didn’t realise how deep and profound were my own hurts/wounds suffered at the hands of the abusive, demanding and controlling AOG Gestapo.
And so … well you’ve guessed it I came back for round two. Only this time, I had changed.
I was now able to be much more honest about the depth of betrayal that I had suffered in relation to the vindictive nature of the AOG hierarchy/system towards anyone who dared (as I did) to buck the system! (Even when they are in gross error … you dare NOT say so … or it’s off to Siberia!)
I knew these guys (the AOG leaders), the ones that wield such incredible power … power to make or BREAK! And somehow I had convinced myself that I would have been be betraying them and in doing so I would be just as ‘bad’ as those I was denouncing.
In returning to Signposts (after a period of further healing) I found I was able to see others ‘just like me’ and NOT feel (burdened … make that driven) to HAVE TO fix them!
This time around however, I gave myself permission to ‘act out’ the hurt and betrayal (thank God for ‘Signposts’) without the incredible weight of guilt I had always encountered because I wasn’t supposed to be critical etc!
I told myself that I wasn’t (intentionally) being critical I was simply being honest!
And yes my honesty brought certain AOG actions etc into question and RIGHTLY so! No one is above scrutiny … the word judges us all.
I might add here, that even though I believe the scriptural injunction: “the truth will set you free”, I can’t claim that, as a motivating factor in what has taken place.
NO … it was much more profound then that … I was forced to look at the truth! And my own sanity demanded an answer … it was (painful) honesty that eventually led to a HUGE release - I’m no longer a victim!
Damn you Lance (and others)!! We should ban this site!!
PS For those considering hanging around here … the pain is actually worse now! But, life and purpose … are returning!
Jack
March 2nd, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Jack, you sound pretty complicated to me. Keep it up.
John 1878
That is sad to hear about so much fall out from hs. Good on you for your work.
March 2nd, 2007 at 7:47 pm
The one thing I’m wondering…..
We’ve talked a lot here about breaking free from the AOG’s vice-like grip…but I’m still curious….how does one end up becoming an AOG pastor in the first place?
I mean..it’s not the kind of job you fall into…(unless you’re born in the right family)
What’s the process of them selling you the idea of becoming a pastor…and is there any point early on where you have to suspend your disbelief at what they do and what they say…in order to carry out all the AOG pastoral wank?
March 2nd, 2007 at 7:59 pm
For me it was youth, combined with an earnest zeal for God and an environment which seemed to be full of similar minded people.
From that point on, it is conditioning, frog-in-the-kettle stuff until you are so broken, passive in the knowlege that you are totally dispensible, and scared to “fall out of the will of God” - that you continue on, until the niggling conscience (Holy Spirit?) grows too loud to ignore.
Once that happens & you question or speak out - you lose your entire world as you knew it.
Sounds dramatic - but it happens over & over again.
March 2nd, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Curiosity - does anybody who used to go to Hillsong use their real name on this forum ? I don’t but I sometimes get curious as to who people are . People are welcome to email Dan or Phil to get my address .
March 2nd, 2007 at 8:37 pm
In response to AOG’s vice-like grip…yes, youth has a BIG part to play in it. I think as a young person you desperately want to feel involved in something bigger than yourself, you want to be passionate about something, and at the same time you’re searching for answers and your place in the world. All of a sudden along comes this church that says, we’re it! We can give you something to be passionate about! We can tell you all the answers to everything so everything will be black and white for you and you don’t need to worry about those troubling grey areas that might require you to actually think!
It’s enticing, and as a young person you are so easily manipulated.
March 2nd, 2007 at 8:47 pm
I suppose a lot of it too is that we’re trained as kids to believe what adults tell us.
Little did we know that adults are good at telling fibs.
March 2nd, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Yes, and although that isn’t exactly true of my parents the AOG does like to keep its members in an infantile state of faith and belief, so they never grow up and challenge authority, as every good adolescent is supposed to do.