hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
March 2nd, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Ninemsn has a page re: Tanya Levin’s People in Glass Houses being pulled from print. It also has a feedback page and comment page that you may find worthy of browsing through.
See the following link:
http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=229556
March 2nd, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Lance you said:
“The one thing I’m wondering…We’ve talked a lot here about breaking free from the AOG’s vice-like grip…but I’m still curious….how does one end up becoming an AOG pastor in the first place?
I mean … it’s not the kind of job you fall into…(unless you’re born in the right family) What’s the process of them selling you the idea of becoming a pastor…and is there any point early on where you have to suspend your disbelief at what they do and what they say…in order to carry out all the AOG pastoral wank”?
Jane and others have touched on the issues … but here is my (personal) take for what it’s worth.
You are young, passionate and need to believe that you can make a difference. The world around is going to hell on roller skates. You have already lived and survived your own personal hell growing up. Your own demons are still haunting you but you’ve managed to tame them somewhat.
What do you do walk away and thank God you survived? Or do you get back in hell hole you escaped and try to help others find freedom.
It worked for a few years, in Kings Cross and other places where the unwary and hapless are trapped.
But then along comes an offer which seems to increase your chances of being more effective. Your passion blinds you … you’re concerned for the victims you’re young and think you are invincible.
Everything seems to be going well until one day you wake up and realise your priorities have changed … your methods have changed and so have you. You start asking questions but the responses you get are designed to shut you down.
Veiled and not so veiled threats strike their target over and over and you have to make a choice! In my case I fought back … called them on their own game and left.
Did I do right by leaving … dunno? I sometimes wondered about that?
I used to think you could (potentially) change the system IF you were a part of it, as long as IT was not part of you. I now believe I was wrong and stayed too long!
It really scares me to think that these creeps have begun a campaign (in earnest) of recruiting younger and younger guys to the ministry (AOG Nat Con 2005). We are seeing our youth sacrificed on the altar of false gods! What’s more … they don’t even know it!
You asked how you become a pastor in the AOG. Let me ask you, how did you become involved in the Church scene in WA?
You bought into something that you believed in at the time. What happened to cause you to become disillusioned along the way? At what point did you realise something was terribly wrong?
Did you doubt yourself at first and try to fix things or did you just bail? All good questions and I suspect highly individual, but in general, I suspect that we are not all that different really.
Jack
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:58 pm
1890
‘Yes, and although that isn’t exactly true of my parents the AOG does like to keep its members in an infantile state of faith and belief, so they never grow up and challenge authority, as every good adolescent is supposed to do.’
That is so true, the teaching from the pulpit-of-plenty
March 3rd, 2007 at 12:21 am
what I meant to say was that the speaking from the pulpit-of-plenty was always deep sounding and loaded with the jargon of the day. I found that any serious or real study was mocked by the speakers as being ‘old fashioned’ and stuffy, not cool and relevant like us. With that reinforcement over the years it is easy to stop studying the bible yourself and regard only official bible students as having the credibility to speak on any subject and because their teaching has been coloured by the personal vision and religion of one man, the leader of the movement, the role model for a generation, distortions happen. Thus as graduates disperse around the place the whole thing grows.
The irony is, that the messages were quite irrelevant to a normal joe out in the workforce making a buck and paying bills. I can look at my old notebooks and see sermon after sermon of twaddle. Never a question or analysis of scriptural contradictions or anomalies, nothing that smacks of maybe taking a bit longer than 40 minutes, or fitting onto a 5 tape set with a catchy title.
It’s the same old baby food constantly recycled and mixed in with whizzbangery.
This is only my opinion Bruce, don’t get upset again.
March 3rd, 2007 at 9:02 am
When I attended Shiloh WA in the late 80’s there was a repetition that involved 5 ways to this or 7 ways to overcome that, i.e. a formula almost always involved mental gymnastics. I never felt I was good enough, and amongst the spiritual heirarchy in this Church it seemed I could never meet the mark, as hard as I tried, and boy I tried really hard!
In the end I felt like the leaders (up there on their pedestals) were all seeing and all knowing, as they were the ones that had all the direct revelations and insights into God’s laws and teachings. They never represented themselves as anything else, certainly not down on my level.
As you can imagine my already low self esteem was damaged even further, seeking guidance and looking for support from these spiritual heavy-weights.
March 3rd, 2007 at 11:14 am
Arti1234, yeh that’s right, the old attitudes of a………… fill in the gap.
It’s funny, I was just thinking tonight how everything was about being ‘effective’, an effective christian, I always automatically used to think, oh, better make sure I do this otherwise I’ll be an ineffective christian. So many hoops. You don’t even have to be effective, it’s all bull. It’s just bringing a worldly concept, guaranteed to put you under pressure, into the church. ‘Spiritual heavyweights’…as a friend of mine is good at saying…HAH!!
March 3rd, 2007 at 11:56 am
I had to laugh in recognition at this…”5 ways to this or 7 ways to overcome that, i.e. a formula almost always involved mental gymnastics. I never felt I was good enough, and amongst the spiritual heirarchy in this Church it seemed I could never meet the mark, as hard as I tried, and boy I tried really hard!”
Ain’t that the truth! At myold AOG church we used to joke about “seven ways to…” sermons and Bible studies, but it is the sad truth. Some sermons you’d be lucky to find a Bible verse in there! And Bible verses were only ever used to back up a speaker’s point (usually out of context) there was never any in-depth look at the scriptures. When I changed churches I was gtenuinely delighted (and amazed) to find the Bible studies asked open questions and there weas no right/wrong answer expected, just open discussion. It was almost frightening…almost like I was doing something a bit naughty.
And as for meeting the mark…my opinion is that you either kill yourself trying to meet the mark, and then you never can so you have to lie and say you’ve met it. There is a culture among the pastors who claim to have “met the mark” that their failures are quietly put to one side and no one ever seems to mention them. I think it’s because they think no one can get saved unless we have these perfect lives to attract non-Christians. We’re all supposed to be successful, wealthy, driven, fun-loving people with no problems. So…I find that churches with that kind of leadership foster a culture of deceit. One example…I visted a youth pastor’s home and it was full of new stuff he had bought. He went on and on about it telling me it was because he was “blessed”. Well…actually he was floating on a sea of creit and had to end up selling his house. God’s blessing? No, I don’t think so. Just a sad attempt to keep up with the Joneses.
March 3rd, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Emma,
Great comments. A Lutheran Pastor recently lamented to me that they did a ‘multi-media’ styled service which went across really well. One lady asked him after the service “why can’t we do that every week”.
The sermon was a success in entertaining people - his sadness was in the fact that people now need ‘entertaining’ rather than solid exegesis of the scriptures. Many new style sermons are not inductive (ie lets study at the scriptures and find out what God is saying), rather they are ‘answer first’ or ‘deductive’. This means that we use ‘man’s wisdom’ and look at scriptures to justify what we want to hear…
We tend to talk - and not to listen.
The tools and style has aften become the ned and not the means.
March 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Lionfish … sounds all too familiar.
4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,
2Ti 4:2 preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear.
2Ti 4:4 And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths.
2Ti 4:5 But you watch in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry.
The ‘guilt’ lies on both sides of the equation. I hope the Lutheran Pastors lament leads him back to the solid exegesis of the word. We all need it!
Jack
March 3rd, 2007 at 2:03 pm
What motivates a REAL Pastor these days? How would we even define certain pastoral functions etc? What drives a pastor? Where would you start!
“Milquetoast Pastors” - Passive leaders are usually “called” to a congregation rather than to a mission. They’re led entirely by their board and other “controllers.” Many of these dear souls are burned-out or disillusioned church reformers. Others are desperately “co-dependent,” hoping to serve out their modest assignments.
“Churchy Clergy” - Career-driven clergy reach the pinnacle of their achievement when they are ordained by the ordained. These “officially” anointed Christians draw their esteem from the entitlements of their “certification.” And they love top-down religiosity, spiritual bureaucracies, and legalistic agendas.
“Hospital Chaplains” - Chaplain churches are like hospitals where people are healed, protected, and comforted. In these churches, though, the shepherd never leads his sheep beyond their protected enclosure. Pastoral care is the pastor’s only ministry. And his message is always the same, “Take two aspirin and go to bed.”
“Information Brokers” - These preachers are teachers. They impart “knowledge,” deliver “information,” and mediate the “facts” of faith. Academic credentials and proper theologies are their primary imperatives. These “thinkers” teach us how to think, but seldom how to live. They give us “just the facts, Man”–then we’re on our own.
“Ministry Police” - These guardians “do” the ministry. The laity may serve on committees or do minor stuff, but these “professionals” are the ministry. It’s a caste system, a clear divide between those who are “official” and those who are “just lay persons.” So, “Keep in your place and don’t get in the way.”
“Control Freaks” - Command-and-control clergy belong to the same family as the “Ministry Police.” They micro-manage the whole church and insist on approving everything. The laity, of course, must do exactly what they’re told, for errors are seldom forgiven.
“Feudal Overlords” - These kingdom builders (”kingdom” with a small “k”) are mostly concerned about the size and resources of their church. This makes sense, for their church is conspicuously about them. They’re motivated, of course, by the privileges of position and power. Though “The Son of man came not to be waited on but to serve,”(1) these kingdom builders are slightly better off than the Son of man.
“Marketing CEO’s” - Many “managers of the sacred” are also marketing experts. They covet the powers of strategic planning and commercial success. Their game is a numbers game, so whatever the market wants. . . . These pastors harvest where nothing is planted. They barter a spiritual birthright for something “far more successful.”
Borrowed from: http://www.futurechurch.net/archives_view.asp?articleid=55
Jack
March 3rd, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Emma do you still live in the Hawkesbury area? Which church are you at now? Please feel free to email me at gracerequired@gmail.com
March 3rd, 2007 at 6:22 pm
J-O-I …
“The ‘guilt’ lies on both sides of the equation. I hope the Lutheran Pastors lament leads him back to the solid exegesis of the word”.
I believe multi media is a tool, as does the Lutheran pastor. He was never going down the wrong track - it was a more an observation and a reflection by him on how accustomed people are to ‘entertainement’.
March 3rd, 2007 at 7:00 pm
“What drives a pastor”
Er… it’s possible some are called by God, that they take servant leadership seriously, and they sincerely desire to “equip the saints for the work of ministry”.
This is a fascinating discussion.
I’m wondering if I could pick up an earlier comment from Jack of It about his first experiences of posting on Signposts:
“That I wasn’t ready for! Like a pack of hungry sharks on a feeding frenzy, I was set upon! At least, because of my own hurt, that’s what it felt like!”
I’ve actually wondered about this a few times… whether the Signposts “feeding frenzy” tendency when someone posts something like “the AOG isn’t all bad” is actually necessary… that it jolts people into confronting hard issues that a “softly-softly” approach wouldn’t achieve.
Jack… Zulu… Emblazoned… and anyone else… what do you think?
(I’m sure there’ll still be “feeding frenzies” regardless of the answer due to the wonders of free speech, but I’d be interested in your reflection on this.)
March 3rd, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Pretend I’m not emanresu…
CCC and Hillsong aren’t bad guys! You guys just are bitter because you couldn’t handle what God was doing there and you were jealous!
March 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Hi gracerequired no I don’t live in the Hawkesbury anymore and I go to Glenbrook Baptist Church now.
As for emanresu…are you serious? I haven’t read enough of your posts to know whether you are being serious or ironic. Hopefully it’s the latter…because if it’s the former, it’s actually funny.
I think most people would agree that the majority of people who attend these churches love God and genuinely try to live as good a life as possible. Many of the pastors in these churches are good, God-loving people. My issue is that the AOG seems to foster a culture of control, where it’s not acceptable to question or speak out or have any difference of opinion. I know from my own experience that to voice a difference of opinion means you run the risk of being shunned by leadership. I think that’s why a lot of people in the AOG find that to really grow in their spiritual journey, they have to break away from the AOG, because they don’t want to be spoon-fed anymore, they want to go beyond the childish things and grow up in their faith…they want to ask questions and try to work things out for themselves.
So as for being jealous…I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be jealous of.
March 3rd, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Lionfish
Perhaps I misunderstood, I was simply commenting that the trap that many these days seem to fall into is “giving ‘em what they want” - hence the sciptures I used. My hope was that this wasn’t the case with the Lutheran Pastor.
I agree that the use of multi media can enhance communication etc, but I wonder if it’s not potentially the thin edge of the wedge. I mean where do you draw the line? This medium often comes with all sorts of preconceived expectations etc attached to it, due to it’s overuse or even misuse.
I remember when it started out in AOG circles it was represented as a legitmate expression of a ’spirit of excellence’; which was really code for we are better than you (look at our gadgetry) and therefore your mob should come and join us - you just don’t measure up! Perhaps I’ve witnessed far too much of the abuse, to offer an unbiased opinion on this but I suggest that when ‘entertainment’ is an outcome then maybe we’ve crossed the line.
Just soem thoughts…
Jack
Jack
March 3rd, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Janet,
In my case, the ‘jolt’ WAS necessary! I actually credited ’sigposts’ with a portion of my recovery in the post you refer to. These days I enjoy the rough and tumble on offer here - I even had the cheek to set different readers up with my opening comments, using Lance as bait! A trick I learned here BTW!
I admit though, at times, things can seem a ‘bit below the belt’ … and can cause reactions. But at such times I am learning to ask why it is that I AM reacting the way that I am - focusing on my issues and trying to learn from the encounter.
Believe it or not I am not here to change anybody (not that I could) I am the one who is changing and amazingly I’m enjoying the whole experience - except for dickheads like Sanders, LEWIS, ROSS1 and the occassional ‘hit and run’ joker that pokes their nose in.
Jack
March 3rd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
As for ‘what drives a Pastor’ … a deliberate provocation to get some feedback and discussion happening. My thinking was along the following lines…
If todays leaders are left to run tomorrows churches won’t they simply keep them anchored in the past?
What kind of leader will tomorrow’s church need to be trully the church of tomorrow.
I suspect that such individuals will be so radically different to their present counterpart that we probably won’t (initially) recognise them. A couple of examples of what might drive ‘future’ church leaders.
“An Otherworldly Visitor” - Though totally normal, he explores the edges of normalcy. Though normally intuitive, he challenges the frontiers of the counter-intuitive. And though cognizant of the possible, he embraces the impossible.
He feels totally comfortable, for example, with ludicrous contradictions and ridiculous juxtapositions. He believes that when he is weak, he is strong–when he is a slave, he is free–when he is humbled, he is exalted. He lives a life bold, yet humble–confident, yet self-effacing–powerful, yet subtle–singleminded, yet open.
And, not far from the bizaare, he believes he is “both called and empowered to be an extension of the Incarnation”–a living, breathing “Word made flesh”! Of course, society’s reactions to such “arrogant illusions” would not have surprised St. Paul, for his own converts were embarrassed and scandalized by similar off-the-wall statements.
“A Maverick” - Though willing to work within an institution, he is–at heart–a free spirit, a nonconformist. For his vision of God’s Kingdom is constrained neither by wornout conventions nor blind commitments.
He’s not interested, for example, in the worst manifestations of “being religious.” He’s not interested in the barnacles of past cultures that still burden the church. And, he’s not interested in the latest goals and gods of secular success.
Instead, he’s interested in the epic countercultural moves of a “moving” Lord of History. He’s interested in spiritual integrities that embrace a new–yet, far more profound–orthodoxy. And, he’s interested in quality rather than quantity–the promises of a distant, yet greater, harvest.
As example, this “careful cowboy” does “triage” on his own congregation(!)–maximizing his influence on those who want to grow, those who want to lead, those who want to become spiritual entrepreneurs of a global, networking world.
“A Nobody” - A radically selfless leader, he actually believes the hard sayings of Jesus. He actually accepts failure, crisis, and hardship as the secret of his success. He actually practices giving up his life with the full expectation of his life being given back again.
Everybody else, of course, wants to be loved, accepted, and appreciated. That’s normal and necessary. But this transfigured being willingly forgoes being “somebody.” Like St. Paul, who stepped down in a world of status and prominence, this transcendent spirit knows a similar ridicule and rejection.
More to the point, he has given up a pastor-centered ministry for a lay-centered ministry. He has given up receiving accolades for giving accolades. And, he has given up making himself successful for making others successful.
In other words, he has forfeited turf-protection for mentoring and networking. He has forfeited personal ownership for empowering others. And, he has forfeited quick “notches on his salvation gun-belt” for caring and lasting relationships.
“A Risk-Taker” - The first rule of “responsible” church leadership is simple and sane: “Don’t rock the boat.” It’s also the second, third, and fourth rule. So the daredevil deeds of church pioneers are really not worth the risk. They don’t even make good sense.
True enough. Church leaders should be profoundly cautious.
Yet, anyone truly led by the Lord will willingly risk spontaneity. They will risk–in the same moment!–the awe within the ordinary, the mystery within the mundane, the numinous within the natural, and the intuitive within the intellect.
And, with a “wild patience,” they will even risk chaos. For they’ve learned that the miraculous transitions of unwelcome chaos are far more empowering than the comfortable retreats of a preferred peace. In fact, sometimes they deliberately allow discomfort, risking a disharmony that provides the only possible resolution to a higher harmony.
Just thinking out loud…
Jack
March 4th, 2007 at 3:36 am
“You asked how you become a pastor in the AOG. Let me ask you, how did you become involved in the Church scene in WA?
You bought into something that you believed in at the time. What happened to cause you to become disillusioned along the way? At what point did you realise something was terribly wrong?
Did you doubt yourself at first and try to fix things or did you just bail? All good questions and I suspect highly individual, but in general, I suspect that we are not all that different really.”
I’ve been wanting to give a thoughtful answer to that because it’s at the heart of where I’m at…but the weekends are my busy time of the week work-wise…so I’m still mulling it over before I try and write something half-decent.
I’ll just say for now..that I bought into it because I was being told that it was the only option…and stayed with it until I couldn’t deny any more that it obviously wasn’t working.
March 4th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Thanks Jack. Interesting thoughts there.
And I’m interested to hear the “feeding frenzy” was a necessary jolt!
March 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Emanresu,
You hippocrite! You heathen! You pond scum! You slime bag! You two faced…..oh hang on it’s actually you isnt it?
Janet,
What I don’t tell people is that I’m actually still deeply involved in the AoG, but I shall keep my actual involvement secret for now. i am a mole that has a lot of grassroots support that want to see things different to how Hillsong and its ilk have run things. Eg. you won’t see me dead at a Hillsong or CCC conference….and I’m at a non-tithing AoG church…and i run my….’ministry’ very different to the norm…
March 4th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Janet the ‘feeding frenzy,’ was not only a jolt, it was a wake up call! Let me try to explain.
When you are part of the Mega-church system the ‘creation’ (in this case the church) becomes so all consuming that it actually begins to devour the very people it was originally created to assist.
But the process is so subtle it is difficult to discern. Things get tough along the way, but you tough it out; because you are made of better stuff - right! There is no quarter given to anyone who pauses to ask ‘WHY’ … or … ‘is there a better way’ etc. To adopt such an attitude brands you as ‘sub-standard’ and places you just one step away from being abused, ridiculed and discarded.
And so you live in an artificial, controlled and completely unreal world; but you believe what your superiors tell you (demand of you) and you silence your own negative confessions/thoughts; whip yourself back into shape (positive confession … superior attitude) and try to push through.
In the process your own ‘hurts’ start to spill out and begin to hurt some of those around you. Eventually (you’re so tired you hadn’t realised) you become aware of this and since you really do care … but realise that can’t change anything around you … you do the only other thing left … you flog yourself into greater efforts!
The church (or system) meantime continues to drain you of all energy and places increasing strain upon ALL of your relationships. The church (in this guise) is a jealous lover and will not permit you any freedom to engage with others outside of its domain (control).
You try to balance all of the demands of such a (destructive) system as well as the needs of the people you care about, while at the same time trying to find time for family and friends (if you still have any) only to find that there is no time left for yourself.
Inevitably you either get out … burn out or … you are thrown out - for not cutting it!
Not sure of the latest stats, but a few years ago according to Rowland Croucher, there were more than 10,000 ex pastors in Australia, who were burned out, broken down and languishing somewhere - often alone - marriage breakdown is huge among such pastors!
The people you once cared for have moved on … i.e. to consume the latest offerings from the latest chump (oops) pastor. The denomination … well they see you as damaged goods, unworthy of the ‘office’ you once held and undeserving of their support. They feel vindicated in their negative appraisal of you (your failure confirms what they suspected all along) you are sub-standard material!
Now in your desperation you turn to others who have been hurt (badly) like yourself and think that here you will find compassion and empathy and a place to explore your (unexpressed) thoughts and feelings … anonymously.
You start to open up and BAM … feeding frenzy! Talk about a reality check … whoa!
I needed the jolt … I needed to engage, real people about real issues without all the pretence which makes a mockery of being ‘brothers and sisters’. I’m not saying it’s the same for everyone, but who knows?
Jack
March 4th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
“I’m not saying it’s the same for everyone, but who knows?”
It’s pretty damn similar.
J
March 4th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Hi emblazoned,
This is a genuine question only, not a stir…
How does a non tithing church support it’s ministry staff, pay the bills, plan for the future etc?
March 4th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Dido,
Faith in God’s provision is the only legitimate source of supply for any Church; also the pastor might consider ‘tent making’ …. downsizing THEIR plans and seeking God afresh. The whole concept of ‘ministry staff’ is unbiblical anyway and so neither God nor his people are obligated to support it.
‘Lack’ of faith (as well as other more sinister motives) are manifest when resorting to demanding a tithe (aka … fleecing the flock) from the Lord’s people.
My experience is, that whatever God commands he supports, but He is not obliged to support OUR plans. We are to build His kingdom NOT ours!
Also NEVER under-estimate the generosity of God’s people when a GENUINE need arises!
As for planning for the future, surely we ’should’ be able to trust God for that, he is the one who calls etc. Remember God is the HEAD of his church aany pastor and who is not in constant communication with God should NOT be followed any where!
Prayer keeps us abreast of what God is doing (all of us) we have no right (or mandate) to do anything other than what Good is asking in the first place!
Just some thoughts to get you started …
Jack
March 4th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Janet you wrote:
” I’ve actually wondered about this a few times… whether the Signposts “feeding frenzy” tendency when someone posts something like “the AOG isn’t all bad” is actually necessary… that it jolts people into confronting hard issues that a “softly-softly” approach wouldn’t achieve.
Jack… Zulu… Emblazoned… and anyone else… what do you think?”
At the risk of boring people with what I’ve said before, I think hurt people hurt people, and they do that pretty well here. I think more people would hang around if it wasn’t for the shark feed that happens when a new plaything arrives nad starts posting naively.
I’ve learned that if I want to be somewhat more inspired and uplifted I go to other blogs. Having said the above I still read this site everyday and post from time to time so it comes down to what you feel you can handle I think.
By the way, your posts have the ring of Jesus to them.
March 4th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
re 1912 very good.
That is a good description of what it was for me too, althoughht you don’t have to be a pastor to have all of that stuff, every ‘dept’ at hs was and maybe still is under pressure.
‘which makes a mockery of being ‘brothers and sisters’.’ The whole family thing is a crock to me anyway, which family do you know where members of that family are expendable if they don’t meet certain criterion. This comes out in the meeting transcript 1854 ( if it’s a genuine reading, tho’ it sounds pretty right to me ). It’s like saying ‘we don’t want you in this house anymore because you have a limp now, you are an expendable commodity anyway so goodbye’ It wouldn’t happen in a real family.
‘In the process your own ‘hurts’ start to spill out and begin to hurt some of those around you. Eventually (you’re so tired you hadn’t realised) you become aware of this and since you really do care … but realise that can’t change anything around you … you do the only other thing left … you flog yourself into greater efforts!’
Totally correct. It’s interesting when you get to the stage of hurting other people no one above you pulls you aside and has a word about it, though they do talk about it behind your back and eventually it becomes part of the justification for pushing you out, consequently you can go for years without realising what a jerk you are, especially if you don’t realise it. Just before I left, one of the leaders actually said to me in front of a few others in a meeting, ‘gee, I think we’ve neglected your leadership skills a bit here’. The penny dropped with a thud, it was right, I was completely useless at it, what the hell was I doing in that position…Cheers, thanks for telling me now.
This is the lasting legacy of my sojourn at hs, I am still really ashamed of the way I treated people and very embarrassed about the way I was, I remember the scriptures about one day standing before God and giving an account etc. etc. and I wasn’t even a pastor, I was at the bottom of the food chain and still found it necessary to work 60 hours a week most of the time, this was for a few years, no wonder it took me 6 to come around, waking up from my nightmare. Thank God for forgiveness, grace and mercy.
March 4th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Dido Says:
“Hi emblazoned,
This is a genuine question only, not a stir…
How does a non tithing church support it’s ministry staff, pay the bills, plan for the future etc?”
Simple enough. The pastor is open and honest about the needs of the church and explains how much is being given versus what the needs are. People cna adn do give sacrificially, but we lack the ‘you MUST give’ and always pushing for money culture…
March 5th, 2007 at 3:02 am
“Comment from Rev John Telfer Brown
……[Tony Venn-Brown] attends Hillsong frequently as a visitor, but this is his right, as they will not attempt to stop anyone attending Church, but I believe that he is closely monitered.”
From http://www.andrewcairns.com/2007/03/01/hillsong-pastor-leading-gay-parade/
March 5th, 2007 at 5:08 am
Thanks for answering my question guys!
I must say I’ve thought for a while (to quote Zulu) “more people would hang around if it wasn’t for the shark feed that happens when a new plaything arrives and starts posting naively.”
But it sounds like for some… they’ve been so emersed in a system for so long the “jolt” is actually a painfully healthy thing.
I have a hunch the gentler approach of Emblazoned will help some see unhealthy aspects of church culture who would be alienated by the “jolt” of Signposts. (and hence, disengage from the issues.) Still, it appears the “jolt” has a place in the scheme of things.
I think Dan and Phil can get a pat on the back for creating a largely unedited site, and copping periodic flak for that… because it is robust and honest and is highly therapeutic for those going through “unhealthy institutional church detox”.
(Oh, and thanks Zulu… although I think Jesus was a bit more courageously confrontational than I am… I haven’t driven out money-changers with whips lately, or called anyone a whitewashed tomb!)