hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 16th, 2006 at 6:38 am
It doesn’t say anything about brushing your teeth, but I suspect you should do that anyways.
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Good Morning People…
“HE IS RISEN”….
April 16th, 2006 at 8:45 am
The Bible discusses the concept of tithing and a lot of Christians use 10% as a reasonable percentage.
You are mistaken on that point Mike.
The bible also discusses the concept of ‘building an ark’.
Have you built your ark Mike?
‘Christian tithing’ is just another square circle and a complete contradiction and has in much as common for a beliver today as animal sacrifice, capital punishment, abstaining from unclean meats and resting on the sabbath.
Are you aware Mike that money was NEVER a titheable commodity?
Fisherman couldn’t tithe fish, A Carpenter couldn’t tithe his timber etc…
Are you also aware that in EVERY instance the tithe payer ATE the tithe?
Yep - ’tis true.
HS and CCC better hope and pray that believers in their churches keep their bible’s closed!
See the following article for an expose tour de force on tithing:
http://squarecircles.blogspot.com/2006/04/tithing-fact-or-fantasy_14.html
April 16th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Rev,
Could I give up the Bentley (ohh you didn’t ask as many don’t but I donated the equivalent value of the car to a group dealing with emotionally and physically abused teenage girls - but then again the argument would be I could have donated twice that amount and drive around in a Corolla).
and house in Sydney. Yes. Would I be below the poverty line as a result. Well that is where individual circumstances are different. I could give up everything I own to the Lord, and would happily do so, and yet my family would provide me with everything I need. You might therefore assume that I would only give up everything because I can. The irony is it would be difficult, in fact impossible unless I disowned my extended family, for me to live in abject poverty. And I don’t believe the scriptures ask me to. If you do then that is fine. God will convict each of us according to his Holy Spirit.
You seem to me to be adding to the gospel which says that when we receive and believe in his name we have power to be called children of God. Yes Rev, you and I will be in heaven together. Maybe we will swap some stories about our lifestyles and God will humble both of us about our ideas and opinions and our views on scriptures.
I see that you answer none of the questions posed to you (caffeine which according to your website you drink copious amounts (why are you not donating these proceeds and drinking water) or the trip you had to London and Paris (many people have never travelled and these funds could have been used for further gospel work). But like a lot of people it is better not to answer a question but ask another.
I am reminded this early Sunday morning that Christ is risen and through that victory of death I have eternal salvation and will see the Kindgom of God. Praise God.
I could probably post ad infinitum to these posts but yet you have developed your own opinions and views about Hillsong and the people who go there. I will continue to live my life as Christ has asked, maybe I am misled, maybe I am deluded, if so may Christ have mercy on my soul on judgement day.
Goodbye.
April 16th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Mike,
The debate is not one of being affluent or poor, - rather the argument is about the need for authenticity, transparency, accountability and orthodoxy in Hillsong and its networked Churches.
My questions to you are:
1) “how can we trust spiritual leaders with teaching about things of eternal importance - if we cannot trust them to teach us properly about things of earthly importance such as money”.
2) “Why is their so much secrecy surrounding how the Business model works – ie. the lucrative speaking circuit - Pastoral remmuneration, lack of financial transparency?.
3) “why do these guys leverage incorporations law for tax gain – yet do not comply with law by having an annual AGM or providing detailed financials?.
There are a few people at the top of these networked Churches (or Business Franchises) living very affluently from a “system” that deceives (you cannot call intentional false teaching anything else than deception) and extract cash from the many (who have not got the capacity to interpret the scriptures for themselves and are ‘emotionally hooked’).
The (false) teaching on Tithing is just the front end and input into a completely Dodgy Church-Business Model.
I used to go to one of these Churches (Riverview), but after asking some questions and getting no answers I decided that as a father I have to protect the spiritual and financial interests of myself and my family – and that is why I will be returning to a Church that exegetes (interprets) the Bible correctly, supplies information regarding the finances of the Church and fully discloses the remuneration of the Pastor and direct family members and ‘special friends’.
Have a look at your Bible at Ezekiel Chapter 34.
Richard
April 16th, 2006 at 10:10 am
Good post Lionfish.
Here is something I was reading last week from Jeremiah -
“For among My people are found WICKED ONES. They lie in wait, as one who sets snares. They set a trap, they catch men. Like a cage full of birds, so their houses are full of treachery. On account of this they have BECOME GREAT AND GROWN RICH. They have become fat; they shine. Yes, they pass over the deeds of the evil; they do not judge the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper. And they do not vindicate the right of the needy. Shall I not visit for these things, declares Jehovah? Shall not My soul be avenged on such a nation as this? An astounding and horrible thing has happened in the land. The prophets PROPHESY FALSELY, and the priests bear rule by their hands; and MY PEOPLE LOVE IT SO” Jeremiah 5.26-31
Do we think that scripture is there just for a historical account of Israel?
No - that was penned ‘For our admonition’ (1 Corinthians 10.11).
April 16th, 2006 at 10:13 am
“The prophets PROPHESY FALSELY…and MY PEOPLE LOVE IT SO”
Could anything be more clear cut than this in regards to Hillsong and CCC?
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 10:39 am
I will respond later Mike,
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 11:23 am
LionFish,
Ok to respond to a few of those questions :
1. I agree that prosperity doctrine is dangerous. I don’t believe that Christians will be automatically blessed with financial riches beyond their wildest imagination. I don’t think that accepting God is similar to winning the NYC state lottery. I am aware that Brian did bring out a book while ago which had a title along the lines of “God wants you rich”. A book which was lambasted by Tim Costello. Now this publication was withdrawn. Whether it was due to adverse publicity or a change in spirit is not really something I can conclude upon. My personal experience at Hillsong is that our wealth is to be used to assist others. A lot of people focus on the “wealth” of Hillsong without attending a service at all. If you do things such as the grace of God, the death and resurrection of Christ, being empowered by the Holy Spirit to live boldly for Christ, being strong men and women in Christ to help serve our partners, families and others are all clear messages. I almost gain the impression that some of you expect subliminal messages on the screen which say “We take credits cards, direct debit and travellers cheques” and that last week’s message was on whether Jesus’s sandals were the latest Jewish fashion by Oi-Vey or one of those cheap rip of varities.
2. Does every Church provide detailed financials of their pastor’s remuneration ? Did you know that every religious practitioner is entitled to receive accomodation and other fringe benefits from the church and it is not subject to fringe benefits tax. This is applicable for every pastor and advantages pastors over every other taxpayer. Should pastors therefore not accept the fringe benefit tax exempt portion and return this to the church as they are in a tax advantageous position to the average taxpayer. If my company paid for my house then it would be subject to fringe benefits tax. Not if I am a pastor.
Hillsong has a Board, an audit committe, a remuneration committee and independant audit of their accounts. What more accountability do you want ? How many churches have their books audited by a Big Four accounting firm ? Corporate Governance is important and I believe Hillsong has implemented a structure that is considered by most business leaders to be adequate. What further corporate governance are you seeking ? Why must pastors disclose their salaries and yet we are all part of the body of Christ. Should elders also disclose their salaries ? What about Sunday School teachers ? Aren’t they leading and ministering in their own areas. Should they also disclose their personal financial details.
Incorporation for tax gain ? I am a tax consultant and it is obvious you know nothing about the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 and 1997 and the income tax treatment for charities, religious institutions, etc. These sort of entities are tax exempt whether incorporated or not, provided they meet the definition in the Acts.
Not all incorporated organisations have to present financial statements to ASIC. ASIC regulates the Corporations Act 2001, along with a number of other Acts. Section 292 of the Corporations Act requires the following entities to prepare financial reports:
Public companies;
Disclosing entities;
Large proprietary companies;
Managed investment schemes;
Small proprietary companies (foreign controlled);
Small proprietary companies (ASIC direction to lodge financial reports)
If you do an ASIC search the Hillsong Church Ltd is a disclosing entity and has submitted financials to ASIC on 29th April 2005 and according to the ASIC register is 33 pages in total. Why don’t you contact ASIC and ask whether you can obtain a copy of the report or any of the information brokers who can also provide it to you. It would seem that they have met their legal obligations ? Are you suggesting that they are in breach of the Corporations Act 2001 ? What evidence do you have to make this claim.
April 16th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
Mike -
You have not answered my questions - but obviously as you are new to the tread I will have to provide some additional context (…again).
I have to go to an Easter Lunch but will respond soon.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Just wanting to say HI!
Lionfish, you spoke of depression; urbanmonk ditto and katherine. (if i forget your names or get them wrong … well ive got depression AND a lousy memory).
Most “deep” people i am blessed to know are equally deeply depressed. I am only lightly depressed … ummm??
April 16th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Steve, so you’ve got a Diploma in Bible or similar; have you been thru CBC, Katoomba? Minor point, but the course was lengthened to three years in the mid-70’s and Pat Mesiti graduated, same year as me, in 2000.
Always liked Pat Mesiti as a person, but his message; persuasive but is it scriptural? Has he and others read Galations 5:1-9?
Mike, i would be interested to learn of your view on tithing?
… who has ever given to God that He should repay them …
April 16th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Hi James
Depression - I guess I was trying to say that depression comes in many guises and my experience is that it affects people in different ways . I am pretty reluctant to discuss my own experiences because I know there are people out there who struggle every day and have been fortunate enough in my life to have enjoyed good health for a long time now .
Hope that helps
April 16th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
James,
I don’t hold a firm view on tithing. Basically the point was made earlier by Wiggy that many did not provide financial tithes but rather tithed through their daily efforts (providing fish from their catch to the church community, assisting with building houses for those that didn’t have those skills).
I do think the Bible provides a solid view for ensuring ones resources (whether it be financial, time, fruits of their labour, etc) are used for the communal good of all Christians.
I basically give my time, finances, resources to those who are in need. A woman who I knew couldn’t afford to go through bible college so i paid her way, i’ve spent time with All Souls Church in London in Camden at a soup kitchen. So I tend to take the view that we should just be looking out for areas of need (and the Lord will usually present those opportunities to us based on our skills and resources) and then ensuring those needs are met.
I do believe that we should provide financially to the Church as we live in an age where money is the tool of trade for exchange of goods and services. It isn’t necessarily the best tool of trade but it provides a reasonable denominator for goods and services. Otherwise we get into arguments like “Bill donated 60 apples to the church this week but I installed the entire plumbing for the new toilet system and I have more kids than him so I should take home 30 apples and the beef casserole that Mary supplied.” Bill needs plumbing done at home but John doesn’t consider it necessary to provide that service to him as he feels he has provided his services for the good of the Christian community. Money is a mode of exchange. When we get to heaven we will be perfect and serving others, providing for others will be a perfect model so monetary exchange for goods and services will be irrelevant.
That’s some of my basic thoughts on tithing.
April 16th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
To answer some of your questions, I do not drink copious amounts of coffee I have one or two cups a day, and they are usually made at home. Total cost negligible. My trip to Europe was given to me as a present for doing over 100 hours of work on the church building remodel free of charge, all the while doing all of the teaching, much of the worship leading, and still working a part time job and living off its income so the church never had to pay me. The money for this trip was put up by the leadership network, in exchange for me to do some research on alternative worship going on in England, so it was a working holiday. I stayed with family for most of the time and spent very little money.
But lest you mistake what I am saying, I am not saying that we are to have nothing, nor am I saying it is wrong to ever have nice things. My wife and I have been blessed with a few trips, a guy gave me a trip for two to New York after doing construction work at his home. A friend payed for my wife and I to come to Puerta Vallarta including our hotel for four days so I could do his wedding. So I believe that God does bless us, and allows us to have some beautiful experiences.
What I do not believe is that we are to “store up for ourselves treasures here on earth”, and Hillsong teaches that we should. I do believe that the word specifically says that the wealth chokes out the seed of the word. I do believe that Jesus tells us that we are called to give up all to follow Christ. You say you can give away everything and your family would take care of you, well why don’t you then? Why don’t you give everything you have away, and then spend the entirety of your life living amonst the poor, and helping them, (with your financial acumen) how to navigate the economic seas and become able to be a blessing to others rather than be trapped in poverty. Why not spend every waking moment sharing God’s kingdom, if you don’t need to work. And what a brilliant witness, that you would recognize that earthly wealth is empty and left all for God’s kingdom, what an example to your wealthy friends. Could you leave everything? Family, friends, a succesful business, even your church community, to follow the call of Jesus? See I know the answer to that, I have done it more than once, and will continue to do it.
The fact is that the gospels show us over and over the call to surrender all, I can list scripture after scripture to confirm this. I can prove this much more easily than I can prove the trinity. Yet people do not just make excuses for all of these texts, but teach the direct opposite of them. If I was so grievously in error, I would hope that someone would challenge me, rather than abdicate all responsibility by saying, “well I shouldn’t judge, cause I have some sins of my own” We are called to stand up for what God has taught us, but again Mike, what is acceptable to speak out against? Obviously Hillsong is not worthy of rebuke, but what is? What about the snake handlers? (yes they still exist) What about the santeriea people who have mixed haitian voodoo with Christianity can we judge them? What about David Koresh, who’s son I ministered to in california, would it have been okay to speak out against him? And wasn’t Jesus a hypocrite if he said not to judge, yet judged the pharisees so harshly as to call them sons of the devil, and to judge Peter by calling him satan?
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
Rev,
I agree with you that we are not to store up our treasures here on earth. I don’t concur with the view that this is the teaching of Hillsong but we could be talking semantics in this respect. I do believe that Brian’s position (and I can only say this because of reading his book) is that greater wealth provides us with the opportunity to do more for the gospel in our community given that the mode of exchange in our society is money. It provides us with opportunities to purchase homes to support teenage girls who have been in bondage to prostitution, victims of rape, etc and pay the salaries of those administrative and counselling support who provide support to these victims. It provides opportunities to broadcast on the Australian Christian Channel on Foxtel to provide opportunities for those that are disabled, infirmed or the elderly to worship the Lord or Saviour in their homes. I think that is the essence of Hillsong’s message on wealth and its use for the gospel.
I have been challenged by the thoughts you have presented a number of times. I do have the opportunities you talk about. In my life however I feel that God has convicted me to help those who are better able to witness those in those situations. I guess it is recognising that a former drug addict, a former prositute, someone who has been through some pretty tough times is going to be able to relate much more easily than someone who hasn’t been through those struggles. Is there anything wrong in supporting those individuals financially ?
What about the wealthy who also need to desperately be ministered to. Many are lonely, having achieved financial independence and yet are still aching for love and acceptance. Something that can only be gained through a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. The same way that a reformed heroin addict might have difficulty relating to them (mind you a lot are addicts of other drugs) allows others to understand their sufferings. Financially they may not suffer but emotionally they can be barren and empty. It is difficult to reach those people. Just as difficult as reaching the drug dealer or the prositute. It’s just different issues for these people but the same root problem. They need Jesus Christ.
I have however found your views refreshing and an open spirit to constructively discuss them. We may disagree but yet I certainly haven’t experienced any bitterness or anger in your views. Much appreciated and enjoying the discussion.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
The Rev guy is obviously living a life filled with the finest luxuries money can buy.
Rev, let me ask you this, my good man. Do people describe you as skin and bones, undernourished and sickly? If not, you are consuming too much food. Cut back to one meal every three or four days or so. You should only consume enough for your basic metabolic processes to barely function. The rest of the food to be given to the poor.
You live in a house that could be used for the homeless. You must uproot your family, Rev, and survive under a bridge for Jesus’ sake. But only until such time as the bridge is claimed by more homeless. Then you must live in a field without shelter for the sake of the Gospel.
Do you wear clothes, Rev? You must hand these over to the less fortunate and go naked. Discover the absolute freedom of riding nude on public transport for Jesus.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
Well, I do like to run around naked.
Sounds good, I’ll do it.
Mike,
It appears to me Jesus’ tact for the rich was to make them jealous by seeing the poor set free. He even defined himself as the one that would preach the gospel to the poor and freedom to the captives.
And let me say again, that I have no problem with making money, even huge bill gates kind of money, I do have a problem with keeping it. Rick Warren is a fine example, the guy made millions on his book so what did he do? He lives in the same house, he gave the church back all the money they ever payed him, and now lives off of one tenth of his income and “reverse tithes” giving away ninety percent of his money.
Now I am not saying everyone should live like me, or that I am suffering, see my friends Ash Barker, or Dave Everitt for really being downwardly mobile. But in my experience everyone talks about having money to be a blessing to others, but how is a Bentley to be used for others? Or a ten thousand dollar watch? Or how many people that have bought these giant houses, in order to be a blessing to others have teen aged drug addicts, prostitutes, or even just some down on their luck normal people living in their spare bedrooms? How often are they inviting the sick, the homeless, the hungry into their homes that are supposed to be a blessing? How many share their “holiday home” with those that are stuck in inner city poverty, or even the working poor? I just don’t see it, why? Because Jesus said money is deceitful, and we come up with great excuses, for how we could use money, but we often use it to make us feel better.
I pastored a church of high school and university aged kids, many from broken homes, and horrible pasts. This group of thirty people, with an average age of 22 (and I screwed up the average), most of whom did not work full time, and all in crap jobs, were able to provide a weeks food, and presents for the children of seven families one Christmas. I contend that if a group of poor students can do that, there is sooooo much more that can be done by even middle class people.
Now I know we wil be in heaven together, I believe that Brian will be there as well. The kingdom of heaven, is not heaven, but God’s will done here on earth, and I do believe this is what the camel through the eye of the needle is talking about.
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
I can confirm that the rev does drive a rust bucket…
April 16th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
thanks man
you up for tea on Tuesday?
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
oops; turning back the clock - Pat Mesiti et al graduated from CBC in 1980, not 2000
April 16th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Hello Katharine, i think i understood what you were saying. Are you familiar with 2 Cor 1:4 which says in effect, “God comforted us in all our troubles so that we would be able to comfort others in their troubles with the comfort wherewith God has comforted us.”
April 16th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Mike, thanks for your comments on tithing. I agree with you in principle. I realise this is not a forum on tithing, nor am i trying to make an issue of it. It is only an issue to me in so much as i am aware of the devastating effect the Pat Mesiti style teaching has had upon those who have given beyond their ability - only to find themselves unable to pay their bills.
May i submit the following postulate: Not only does the New Testament not teach tithing; but those who tithe (especially those who rely upon tithing to generate God’s blessing) actually bring themselves under a curse. See Gal. 5:1-9 and Gal 3:10 “for all who rely on works of law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘cursed be every one who does not abide by all thingw written in the book of the law, and do them.”
April 16th, 2006 at 8:52 pm
James you are VERY correct re your tithing points.
Pat Mesiti has now aligned himself with the destructive CCC movement of which I am a former staff member.
Oh the lengths those guys will go to in order to ‘raise the bar’ of financial gain.
I came out of the movement some years ago after I saw how destructive it was becoming.
I know of people who actually gave the deeds to their houses believing they were going to be blessed only to go bankrupt.
Pringle and Mesiti and the CCC leadership (dictatorship) team are only interested in one thing MONEY
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 10:35 pm
Hi Mike,
I will provide you with some context with my earlier questions to enable you to answer them more fully.
Like Steven and Will, I also will be taking a break from this thread – to give my wife some of the attention that she deserves.
=========================
=========================
1) “How can we trust spiritual leaders with teaching about things of eternal importance - if we cannot trust them to teach us properly about things of earthly importance such as money”.
On Tithing and False Doctrine
I agree with you regarding the need to give and be generous however the first issue surrounds the current teaching on the tithe.
These teachers will teach that we must bring the ‘whole tithe’ into their particular Church, that we must be obedient to obtain God’s blessing. The tithe is to the AOG, what the Sabbath is to an SDA. Scriptures have deceitfully and deliberately been twisted to maximise giving.
We have already discussed tithing in detail on the following thread:
http://www.signposts.org.au/2005/12/12/on-tithing/
=========================
On Conflicting Media Statements
In addition to the misleading teaching regarding prosperity theology and the tithe there are some deliberately misleading statements that appear as a matter of Public record:
As you are probably aware BRW published a Cover story article entitled “God’s Millionaires”. The author leveraged an earlier article from the SMH to assert that the Senior Pastor of Hillsong was a property developer. ie. “He earns some of his money, he says, as a property developer, “being a silent partner with a couple of guys from the church in building developments…”
The response of the Senior Pastor in Letters to the Editor (BRW June 9-15 2005) states:
“I have NEVER been a silent partner in any property developments, nor do I receive royalties from product sales at the front of the Church as you have claimed”. Brian also went out of his way on Australian Story to deny his earlier statements.
My original request to Hillsong through the appropriate channels (August 2005) for clarification surrounding the discrepancy between this and Brian’s later denials (“I have never been a Property Developer – Letters to Ed. BRW July 2005) resulted in a delivery receipt from Hillsong – but no reply.
Conversely, the author of the SMH article took the time and courtesy to promptly respond to my enquiry and has now twice confirmed that this was an ‘on the record statement’ and that he has the tapes and transcripts for these statements. (Dan can verify that the SMH author has confirmed this personally).
Mike - If these teachers refuse to exegete the scriptures faithfully (eg. Allan Meyer unapologetically refused to follow adequate principles of hermeneutics when called upon to explain his ‘theology on tithing’, Brain Houston, Pat Mesit, Phil Pringle et al) and on the basis that the teaching as you suggest is ‘dangerous’ – how can we (in your opinion) follow these so-called spiritual leaders…?
Mike - If these teachers cannot provide straight answers’ regarding their personal finances how can we (in your opinion) follow these so-called spiritual leaders…?
=========================
=========================
2) “Why is their so much secrecy surrounding how the Business model works – ie. the lucrative speaking circuit - Pastoral remuneration, lack of financial transparency?.
=========================
You reply “Does every Church provide detailed financials of their pastor’s remuneration ?”.
Most Churches remuneration is publicly available. The Lutheran Church publishes its remuneration guidelines on the Internet. Detailed financials for each Congregation include the Pastors remuneration and all benefits.
Tim Costello and Billy Graham have both urged Pastors to disclose their salaries.:
“Tim Costello (an ex-Baptist Minister) wants to know how much of the Hillsong wealth is going to Brian and Bobbie. “The churches have an enormously privileged position in society - not only do they not pay tax, but they are exempt from many of the fringe benefit rules as well. As a result, they need to be open and fully accountable. Anyone can walk into my church and find out exactly how much I earn, what car I drive, whatever, including any other associated monies I might earn from being a minister. I would like to ask the same of Hillsong.”
Source: http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/01/28/1043804401241.html
Mike – there really is no valid excuse as to why Pastors remuneration is not disclosed in these Churches – especially to the Sponsor and to the Australian Tax Paying Public who graciously provide all of the wonderful tax benefits that these Super Pastors so obviously enjoy.
=========================
=========================
3) “why do these guys leverage incorporations law for tax gain – yet do not comply with law by having an annual AGM or providing detailed financials?.
In WA (at least) an incorporated body must be run democratically and have an AGM at least once per year and provide Members with detailed financials at that AGM:
“Accounts of every association must be submitted to members at the Annual General Meeting (A.G.M.). An A.G.M. shall be held in every calendar year and within 4 months after the end of the association’s financial year (or such longer period as the Commissioner may allow in a particular case). However, an incorporated association may hold its first A.G.M. at any time within 18 months after incorporation”.
Source: http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/default_cp.asp?id=cp/dev_charities/ssi/associations/assoc_incorporation_full&menu=cp_charities
This is not the case at Riverview ( a HS like church). The Articles of Incorporation of Riverview provides “Partners” with only negligible no rights - ‘Trustee Members’ elected by the Board are the only ones with legal rights…
In addition, I do have in my possession a copy of HS’s 2004 30 page financials from ASIC.. They lack enough detail to do any meaningful analysis (ie.. There are absolutely no expense items in the P&L). (Have you gone to the truble of obtaing your own copy…?)
You state/ask “Incorporation for tax gain ? I am a tax consultant and it is obvious you know nothing…” and “Are you suggesting that they are in breach of the Corporations Act 2001 ?”.
Mike, please don’t sound so smug when you say that I have not idea of the acts and regulation in the commercial sector. I am a Business Analyst and Commercial Project Manager and have established the Risk and Compliance framework for one of WA’s largest and most diverse commercial organizations reporting to the CEO on compliance issues. In reality it’s the tax guys like that I will call upon to solve a small part of a wider business problem.
My response to your question is that Hillsong MAY NOT be in breach of the Corporations Act 2001, but like other organizations of its genre (including the CHURCH of Scientology) will masterfully comply with the absolute minimum requirements to meet their statutory obligations to maintain their tax-exempt status.
As a tax consultant you should not be so naïve to believe that there is never a ‘gap’ to be leveraged between what is acceptable from a legal perspective and what is acceptable from an ethical perspective.
You state:
“Hillsong has a Board, an audit committe, a remuneration committee and independant audit of their accounts. What more accountability do you want ? How many churches have their books audited by a Big Four accounting firm ? Corporate Governance is important and I believe Hillsong has implemented a structure that is considered by most business leaders to be adequate. What further corporate governance are you seeking ? Why must pastors disclose their salaries and yet we are all part of the body of Christ. Should elders also disclose their salaries ? What about Sunday School teachers ? Aren’t they leading and ministering in their own areas. Should they also disclose their personal financial details”.
Enron had all of the above - and was audited by Andersons…HIH, Perth Building Society, Westpoint, Bell Corp and many others have / did too.
These are not strong enough reasons alone to provide me with a guarantee that these organisations always opearte above board - even when it appears that they comply with regulatory requirements.
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IN CONCLUSION – There Spirit and the Law
As a tax consultant you of all people should be aware that there are many ways to flout the spirit of intent of the law for commercial advantage.
Phoenix companies that exploit loopholes in Corporations law are established to protect dodgy directors from prosecution when ripping off investors. Too often, the law provides inadequate protections that even the ACCC cannot prosecute obvious scams…
Offshore companies in exotic places can be established to assist with ‘tax-minimisation’. Speaking of such services it appears that if you need some help in such matters that Hillsong’s own auditor KPMG is the only one of the Big 4 that has a branch to assist meet your needs for ‘Offshore and Local company formation and accounting services’ (http://www.vanuatugovernment.gov.vu/directory.html ). For the record I am sure that KPMG are doing everything quite legally.
Similarly, charities that flout the spirit of the tax laws can be established for financial benefit in such a way as they were never meant to be established. http://www.nafi.com.au/news/view.php3?id=1017
Churches and Charities have been given marvelous tax benefits such as GST, Income Tax and FBT exemptions to assist deliver a necessary service to the community (eg. In situations where Pastors live on low incomes). They were never established as a second set of books for Mega Church Pastors on the “lucrative speaking circuit” to maximize their income.
The details of Brian Houston’s LMI do not go into enough detail – but it apparent that he turns over approximately $1.3M per year from his “lucrative speaking circuit engagements”, has only four unnamed employees and pays off the mortgages of the two luxury properties, purchased from but still lived in by the Houston’s. (Was this sort of activity in the minds of those who drafted and approved the tax laws related to charities…?)
It may well all be quite legal – but as the NAFI article points out (in similar circumstances) it flouts the spirit of the intent of the law. This behavior endangers the tax-deductible status of genuine charities and churches, as well as the reputation of the Church.
Something has to change.
Mike - you intuitively know something is wrong when an occupation of service and self-sacrifice is turning spiritual leaders and guru’s (who espouse that their own followers should give sacrificially) into multi-millionaires.
Coupled with the dodgy teaching (Prosperity Theology/Tithing), unclear financial flows and contradictory statements in the media regarding their own wealth – you know something is horribly wrong.
I guess the following quotation still holds true: “Avoid, as you would the plague, a clergyman who is also a man of business”. St Jerome (circa 400 AD)
As a Christian and father, I must protect the spiritual and financial interests of myself and my family – and withdraw from these teachers (2 Tim Chapter 6).
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April 17th, 2006 at 12:38 am
Hi Wiggy. Thank you for your response. Do you mind if i tell a little of our experience with tithing? I will then post any other comments on the tithing thread; as per Lionfish’s comment.
As young believers (late 70’s) we (me mostly but with supportive wife) studied the Scripture (before during and after Bible College) and became fully convinced, inter alia, that:
1. We have been bought with a price, we are not our own
2. The Lord has the right to demand of us whatever He wishes
3. What has demanded of us is our trust in Him - this our work - to believe in Him.
4. The NT has no instruction to gentiles regarding tithing. Indeed, were the tithe so fundamentally essential, how come the Council of Jerusalem made no mention of it?
5. What is not of faith is sin
6. We should share all good things with those who share the Word.
With this and as much understanding as we could draw from Scripture we decided that while we might still be wrong, we could nto tithe if its not of faith (sorry you tithe teachers, no we will not trust you to hear from God for us). We neither tithed, nor did we teach tithing.
After many years of “resisting” and finding ourselves assisting a pastor in a small work, i made the decision, (based on the knowledge that i could well be blind to some truth), to ask the pastor how he would like me to give. I was in business and he asked me to “tithe” from the gross of the business, before expenses (around 50%) and before tax. Well, we didn’t go bankrupt; but we did come close and had to sell our house and borrow money against our car to pay our bills.
But the Lord worked this for our good. The experience did not break us, en contrare, it built in us a determination to test all teachings and only accept that which we could independently verify in/by Scripture. This shielded us from Toronto and the Tele-evangelists and other flavour of the pastornet stuff. It also left us a bit marginalised - rather that than legalised. And now we know that we know; we know doctrinally and we know experientially. And … the Lord in His mercy restored our finances.
So we’re fine, thank you, Wiggy. But what about those who have lost their homes and businesses AND THEIR FAITH??? You know of some that have been bankrupted - some still probably believe the lie. How many have wandered away, i don’t know, but i suspect a great many. Broken and humiliated and their hope is lost - and there is none that searches for them.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:24 am
Much appreciated Lionfish:thanks
April 17th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Let me share with you the results of my research.
Responses from google search “brian houston” AND porn: 127
“brian houston” AND cocaine: 107
“brian houston” AND “axe murderer”: 2
“brian houston” AND “tax avoidance”: 2
“brian houston” AND “child rapist”: 1
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions
April 17th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
And the results of my research?
“Anonymous” AND “porn” :5,520,000
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions…
:p
April 17th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
What is the difference between Lionfish’s approach and the childish research of anonymous? Just the degree of sophistication?
If the only difference between Lionfish and Hillsong is in theological interpretation of the Bible, then why can’t we all accept that as part of the broad church community of God in which diversity is to be welcomed.
There seems to be a little too much enthusiasm on the part of some in trying to “hang shit” on Brian Houston and Hillsong.