hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 17th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Lessons from the Baptist Foundation Fraud.
“Over a period of several years, the management of the Baptist Foundation of Arizona (BFA) engaged in one of the most audacious fraud schemes on record. BFA ultimately filed for bankruptcy, and thousands of elderly investors lost their life savings. How did such a massive fraud develop? What clues did the auditors overlook?”
http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2003/0703/dept/d075003.htm
April 17th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Donald Duck:
You ask: “What is the difference between Lionfish’s approach and the childish research of anonymous? Just the degree of sophistication?”
My mother used to teach us something that contradicts Contemporary Church teaching.
She used to say “God gave you a brain, so make sure that you use it”.
If you cannot see the difference between the comment of anonomous’ and my own, - then using your logic (or lack there of) you probably would believe that the Nazi’s cannot be linked to the Halocaust.
But then again using a Contemporary Church worldview … why would it matter anyway?
Everybody is friends now and lets not get too enthusiastic about speaking the Truth - because sometimes it just does not make everybody feel comfortable.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
Lance, are you suggesting there are similar hints of fraud at Hillsong and/or associated entities?
April 17th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Lionfish, you seem to be implying that dodgy theology implies fraudulent financial arrangements.
First, theology is broad area allowing for variant interpretation. Yours is just one interpretation. Why would God allow only one narrow strand of theology? That would be like a mono-cultural world.
Second, you repeatedly question the financial affairs of Hillsong and/or Brian Houston and/or associated entities. Your repeated questioning has not lead to solid evidence. If it has, where is it? The impression of your repeated questioning is that because you don’t like Hillsong’s theology you want to see them destroyed. It’s not a very friendly approach.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
DonaldDuck:
Nice guys finish last.
Luther was not ‘nice’.
Use your brain - the dodgy theology is integral to the Business Model. Fact.
Contemporary Christians don’t like facts. They like ‘nice’.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
“Lance, are you suggesting there are similar hints of fraud at Hillsong and/or associated entities?”
For legal reasons, I’m unable to answer that question here.
Any public accusation of fraud or unethical conduct, outside of a court or Parliamentary proceeding…prior to a conviction being recorded….. is unlawful in Australia.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
Phil Baker’s blog did publish some accusations I directly put to Phil Baker last year….surrounding the sponsorship arrangements for his ‘business leaders breakfasts’..
As the blog is brought into the public domain by Revenue Church…..I would suggest if Baker has any problem with the accusations being publicly aired….I suggest he take action against the publisher (his own church).
April 17th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
Lance, interpreting your comment literally would mean one couldn’t bring accusations of fraud or unethical conduct to the police for investigation. Surely that is allowed.
Lionfish, why not take your evidence to the proper investigating authorities? Or don’t you have any?
I don’t how you can pursue one money-making enterprise and not others that might resort to questionable business practices. In fact, I would say that it is rational behaviour to exploit the law as much as possible to maximise your profits. Provided you stay on the right side, any other way of conducting a business is ludicrous.
What do you mean by the “spirit of the law”. The only part of the law that matters is cases decided in courts.
April 17th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
Singer my old youth group still does Heaven Suffers Violence, in E minor (please correct me Geoff) we do it with a trilogy of Fear Not and Binding the Strongman can you tell me who wrote it?
We’re binding the strongman (oi! oi! oi!)
We’re losing the captives (Weeeeee)
We’re slaying goliaths
We’re setting the prisoners free!!
Chorus:
We’re calling down fire
Calling dowwn fire
Calling down fire
From heaven… (rpt twice)
—-
Another medley that they do is Blessed Be (Geoff B.), You are my Rock (Geoff B) and I’m a believer. and one thats from the new millenium… Free, One Way, and Take It All (Hillsong)
Its funny my youth group was complaining that we don’t sing any new songs only old songs and hymns, and a few weeks ago we had Hillsong music (not even new!) and some old people complained!!
Its 2006!! Get with the times…
April 17th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Donald Duck…
You tell me who are the proper investigating authorities that will make an arbitary decision as to whether an organisation that calls itself a Church is actually a money making cult calling itself a Church…
Can you prosecute Scientology any other Cashed-up Cult that uses similar ‘legal’ methods to take advantage of believers and make money for its ‘owners’ and leaders … ?
Maybe Rick Ross - the Cult investigator … ?
Too late … Hillsong has already been listed as a ‘Controversial Group’ by Rick Ross because of its dodgy practices and Business Model that we have described and because it is already been investigated by the Government and stripped of not one, but three grants in a month.
Refer: http://www.rickross.com/groups/hillsong.html
What do I mean by the abusing Spirit of the Law?
It’s taking adavtage of loop holes in the law for personal gain - for which the law that was introduced … sort of like a millionairre immigrant obtaining a first home owners grant … or a lazy person collecting the dole over a long period of time.
It’s wrong, its unethical - but you cannot prosecute it … and the law needs to be changed.
And as for getting the laws changed … just keep an eye on the papers.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Donald Duck,
You state
“In fact, I would say that it is rational behaviour to exploit the law as much as possible to maximise your profits. Provided you stay on the right side, any other way of conducting a business is ludicrous”.
Are you saying that Hillsong Church is actually a Business - and anything that it does is OK - as long as it stays on the right side of the law…?
Using your Contemporary Church logic logic then it would be perfectly OK for Hillsong to open a “Marie Stopes” family planning clinic right alongside Gloria Jeans in its auditorium - as long as abortion is legal and it makes money.
Hillsonger logic. [Shakes Head in disbelief].
April 17th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
It is the letter of the law that is important in court, Lionfish. The so called spirit or intention of the law may not be obvious from the legislative text itself - one may have to refer back to parliamentary debates or minutes of committee meetings to determine that.
Lionfish, the blame does not lie solely with Hillsong (or the Church of Scientology) for allegedly taking financial advantage of people. Each person who participates in these organisations has at least equal moral responsibility. I would say more. Most people have access to easy-to- obtain information (e.g. the internet) on these institutions, and it is each person’s own responsibility to determine for himself the appropriateness of entering into a relationship with an organisation like Hillsong.
You are like Tim Costello who continually blames the casinos and gambling outlets but conveniently forgets the moral culpability of the gamblers. This in my view is a very poor moral position for Tim Costello to take.
I would say that the moral responsibility lies mainly with each participant in Hillsong. The regular churchgoers presence is required for the alleged ongoing “scams”.
Lionfish, if I requested your assistance in moving a “package” of suspicious white powder from Malaysia to Australia in return for a substantial amount of money, would you take the offer? You’re not that stupid - possibly the attendees at Hillsong are.
April 17th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
DD,
Now you are talking.
You are right - people including HS’ers need to take responsibility and TEST what they are being taught. It’s like the Bereans - and they need to filter out the crap that their Leaders are feeding them…
“Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true”. (ACts 17:11).
However, this is why we have been protesting.
Most Pentecostals, especially new converts will not know that what they are being taught is rubbish and manipulative.
If you read the smooth words of Pat Mesiti and Phil Pringle of their pre-tithe mini-sermon that Lance has gone to the trouble of transcribing - unless you have a basic understanding of exegesis and hermenutics … you will trust these leaders.
AT the core of every person is their spirituality (their relationship with God), their relationships with people and their finances. People (often in a vulnerable position) surrender their hearts to Jesus … and are then taken advantage of by these Pastors who prey upon their good faith.
So who else will speak out against these Leaders and their teaching - if we don’t …?
DD … most people do not know any better.
And that breaks Lionfish’s heart.
April 17th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
Duckman, do you have a blog address?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
Test /
April 17th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Test
April 17th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Sorry Guys … Just Figuring out how to format
April 17th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
Lionfish, I think most people do know better, but have let themselves be seduced by the clever marketing. They participate in spiritual insomnolence in hopeful exchange for a material advantage. A 15 minute spiritual power nap is in order when this happens!
William S Burroughs, “Words of Advice For Young People” has been quoted on this blog before, and I think the following extract is relevant:
“There are no honorable bargains involving qualitative merchandise, like souls, for quantitative merchandise like time or money.”
Urbanmonk, I do not have a blog. Only an email address.
April 17th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
Good comment DD… now you are on the money …! (I’m thinking is the same Donald Duck…?)
I’m surprised at how few take their souls seriously enough to have the courage to trust the teachings of Christ and the Apostles enough to test against the teaching of their so-called Leaders.
I guess its just too comfortable - and the implications just to disconcerting.
April 18th, 2006 at 5:01 am
From the Signposts Time Machine.
September 8, 1999.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s50171.htm
“John Cleary: Let’s move then to the talk about personal stewardship of money, which is the subject of your book, ‘You Need More Money’. You say that the Bible really affirms people, and the desire for wealth.
Brian Houston: I think the bottom line that people have always got to understand why. I’ve written a book called ‘You Need More Money’ because I absolutely believe again that we are here, we’re on earth, to have an impact much bigger than ourselves. So just recently someone sent me a letter and said, ‘How could you say Christians need more money when there’s 40,000 people dying of starvation a day around the world?’ and my point is, Exactly, that’s why we need more money, so we can be more effective, so we can do what we’re called to do. If people say we need to help the poor, then we can only help the poor with what we’ve got. And so there’s this what I think is such a sad mentality in the church that money is an enemy and basically we should fear it and have none of it, and of course what that does is keep the church ineffective. If the church has got finance, it can have a greater influence.
John Cleary: You do say on page 20 of your book ‘Prosperity is definitely a result of applying God’s word to your life.’ Now what about those who diligently do apply God’s word to their life and yet they still remain poor or disadvantaged?
Brian Houston: I think that one of the biggest issues there is an issue of thinking. I think if people really understood and listened to the broad picture, what is really being said, what is being said is you can build the type of life by changing the way you think, by hard work, by creativity, by discipline, by education, by training, that can build resource into your life, that can help you be more effective. I do believe that if we lived in a world that really took a hold of Biblical principles, that the world would be a very different place, and even where places were stricken by drought and difficult things were happening, that finance could be invested and that we could live in a very vastly different place.
John Cleary: Yes, you do say in Section 2 of the book, ‘It’s God’s will for you to prosper’, and you quote a number of texts, but some theologians would argue that those texts are taken quite out of context, that the overwhelming emphasis on the Bible is on the danger of riches, and that it’s better to live simply.
Brian Houston: It’s a tragic view, it’s a very tragic view, because firstly it’s sadly usually people who hold that view that actually take Scripture out of context. You know, Jesus for example, says that - sorry, the word says about Jesus that though he were rich he became poor, and I had one time a man say to me ‘You’ve got to be careful Brian, the Bible says though Jesus were rich, he became poor’ and missed the whole content of the verse which was that through his poverty, you might be rich.
John Cleary: Yes, but what does ‘rich’ mean?
Brian Houston: … and why should you be rich? The reason why you should be rich is because you can have an effect and be effective.
John Cleary: Yes but Brian, you’re begging a question there yourself, aren’t you, because with that verse particularly, the word ‘rich’ can’t apply to material wealth, because God in heaven is not materially wealthy. The word ‘rich’ there surely has a much wider connotation and it means rich in all those things that are of human worth, that are personal worth.
Brian Houston: Well you’re right and wrong. You’re right that rich is wide. I believe that that applies to absolutely every area of our lives, spiritual, physical, emotionally, every area of our lives. So you’re absolutely right there. Where you’re wrong is whether or not God’s materially wealthy in heaven, I mean the Bible says God own the cattle and a thousand hills, the Bible says the descriptions of heaven are described wealth like we’ll never see on earth, so on that I think you’re quite inaccurate.
John Cleary: Pastor Brian Houston of the Hills Christian Life Centre in Sydney. Author of ‘You Need More Money.’ ”
and….
“Simon Hingston: I was one of their major upfront singers. I found most of the sermons lacking in depth; they took Bible passages out of context often, and they very rarely mentioned anything about the Gospel. I can say in the nine months that I was there and all those services that I went to, that not once I heard Jesus’ death and resurrection explained or really mentioned. Yet at every single service they ask people to become Christians.
Mostly a lot of their preaching is based around increasing people’s confidence. It’s more like a big rev-up session more than how do we actually get to know God from his word, the Bible.
John Cleary: Simon Hingston, a former parishoner at the Hills Christian Life Centre…”
April 18th, 2006 at 9:42 am
Interesting …
John Cleary: What is your company structure if you like, your corporate structure, in order for you to exercise an influence in that circumstance. Do you have a board?
Brian Houston: Yes, Hills Christian Life Centre has got an eldership, which is a board. And so we’re an eldership-led church, which I believe is the New Testament pattern.
John Cleary: And how are the elders appointed, or elected?
Brian Houston: The elders are appointed, and they -
John Cleary: Who would they be appointed by?
Brian Houston: Well, the elders are appointed by - any new elder would be appointed by the elders, and then they would be affirmed by the congregation.
John Cleary: So that the elders appoint their replacements, if you like?
Brian Houston: Yes, as a body, that’s right. It’s an eldership-led church, it’s not a congregationally governed church.
John Cleary: So the congregation don’t have a role in deciding church leadership?
Brian Houston: No, they don’t.
********************
In other words - we the proponents of controversial prosperity doctrine retain full control of everything.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Donald Duck …. “Why would God allow only one narrow strand of theology? That would be like a mono-cultural world.”
are you saying that God would go against the law of non contradiction?
Of course God only allows one strand of theology!
whether we have it or not is another matter, it is a constant fight for the truth of the Gospel of Christ.. though when we see blatant simplistic misrepresentations of the Gospel of Christ we should stand up and call a spade a spade..
BH is full of BS and spin and bad bad theology..
April 18th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
So many heresies, so little time…..
I’ve given up going tp church as I find them an insular and ‘cliquey” bunch, both mainstream and Pentecostal. I have a group of young teenage girls from overseas living next door to me on a “Hillsong scholarship” and have had the misfortune of hearing “the word according to Brian”. I felt sorry for these kids and tried to set them straight using bible references, trouble is they have a completely different slant on things and any attempts were brushed aside as being that of a misinformed layman.
Suitably disenchanted and further saddened by this city’s treatment of Easter and it’s meaning, I came across your website whilst looking for further information on how this cult operates and you certainly confirm my suspicions.
However, as I have had the unfortunate opportunity to be exposed to other such groups which don’t appear to get a mention on your website, I’d like to draw people’s attention to their activities. For the record, I tagged along to these services to keep the matrimonial peace, as my wife and her family are NESB and are easily sucked in by these types of theatrics. Disproving the sermons nearly led to divorce.
Here’s a couple of “Woe to you”s
Church of the Foursquare Gospel
Another “wealth is good” advocate, so long as it’s the pastor who is wealthy. Certainly hammers the whole tythe business and readily quotes several bible verses to justify their vigilance in doing this aspect of the “Lord’s work”.
It doesn’t matter if you’re a pensioner, on the dole, single mother and the like- pain is good, it doesn’t matter if you can’t afford to feed/cloth yourself or your family, GOD requires his 10% and he’ll pay you back when you get to heaven.
This particular church leader describes himself and his wife as “modern day prophets”, trouble is, in my time there his strike rate was 1 out of 4 which, according to the bible, makes him eligible for a stoning. When I raised this issue, I was ex communicated (this was on top of other issues I had raised which I’ll go into later)
They also spoke in an undecipherable jibberish called “tongues” and “speaking in the spirit”. I’m sure you all know Paul’s views on the matter and that this type of behaviour is way off the mark. The pastor could never explain to me what he, or anyone else had said, or of what tangible benefit it could be to any member of the congregation, or in furthering the preaching of God’s word-another “F” on my report card.
At the conclusion of every service, he would invite the attendees to come to the front for “a healing touch”. This involved the aforesaid jibberish together with him placing his hand on the person’s forehead and pushing them back a la Benny Hinn. I watched this process with bemusement on several occasions. There was a row of people with whatever ailed them and he would walk along, say his words and then push them backward. The person would go rigid and fall backward into the arms of a catcher who was waiting at first slip.
As we all know, the odds of one person fainting in a perfectly rigid arc are remote, let alone 15 or so. One time the catcher was distracted while talking to someone else and missed an elderly gentleman’s choreographed fall backward. He hit his head on the wooden floor and ended up with concussion, some blessing!!!
At the cajoling of my wife, I got roped into it one time because my lack of participation was seen as some sort of demonic suppression/possession. After several minutes of ranting and increasing pressure against my forehead, the pastor let out a line reminiscent of Muhammed Ali vs Henry Cooper (“why don’t you fall down”) where the latter refused to go to the canvas despite a heavy beating.
Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of my association with this bunch was when my wife arranged for the pastor to come and “bless” our new house. On this particular day, it was fine and quite hot. When the show began, the pastor did a lap of the yard, stopping at each corner and ranting on in ‘tongues”, before going inside and doing the same in every room. Whilst he was doing this, a freak storm came out of nowhere, with quite heavy hail and winds. It lasted all of 5 minutes and then clear blue skies immediately followed. He claimed that he had “chased away the devil” from our house, as he was upsetting my kids I chased him away.
All in all, their preaching and conduct is unscriptural and downright hypocritical.
As a person who works in a government consumer protection agency, I’ve come across quite a few quasi religions who place terrible burdens (mostly financial) on their parishioners under all sorts of threats. Hillsong is not alone.
April 18th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
welcome lidisfarne
Hillsong is not alone
but the good news is that neither are you
April 18th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
“…..As a person who works in a government consumer protection agency….”
Just the man we’re looking for.
What is the attitude of Government consumer protection agencies to investigating Christian churches that may be in breach of the law?
Is there a ‘we can’t touch them’ attitude….or would these agencies properly probe something and prosecute….?
I am completely amazed that no US Government agency has pinned down Benny Hinn or any of the other charlatans there….
Do Australian consumer protection agencies have any more balls….or do they consider Christian churches and pastors to be ‘untouchables’?
Allegations have been raised for years, as we’ve now documented, of dodgy stuff in churches… but nothing ever seems to happen at a Government level…
I’m hoping NSW Fair Trading hasn’t had its hands in its pockets about going through LMI with a fine tooth comb.
I have a hunch that some of the senior people in these Government consumer protection agencies around Australia go to these churches, and therefore are reluctant to prosecute…. (which, if that were the case, would be corrupt conduct in my book).
April 18th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Lindisfarne welcome mate! Thanks for sharing your story, no you are definately NOT alone…
God bless
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Hi all,
In reply to your enquiry Lance, the consumer protection agencies in AUstralia include ASIC, the ACCC and various state based consumer affairs/Fair Trading bureaus.
I’ve been involved in cases where a “Church” has been brought to task over certain activitiesthat breached the Trade Practices Act and credit legislation. Unfortunately, at a critical stage of one particular investigation, the “Church” in its entirety disappeared and I don’t think it was the Rapture. In another case, the pastor fronted the church on a sunday and told his parishioners that I was “the spawn of the devil” and anyone who spoke with me was an enemy of God. The complainants suddenly refused to co-operate and recanted their allegations….. don’t underestimate the “pursuasiveness” of these churches.
In general, my experience is that any unscrupulous operator is fair game, whether they be an individual, company or quasi church. It’s not “lack of balls” as you put it, but lack of resources and funds that is the hindrance.
With regard to senior people in government agencies being in the pocket of churches, I suppose it’s possible. There is little doubt that certain religious groups exercise their power as a voting block in an attempt to influence political decisions, especially in America. I note Hillsong’s declared leaning toward the Liberals in the last election as well as a similar distribution of preferences by Guy Sebastians mob in South Australia. However, Iam aware of moves afoot to bring Hillsong to account for their alleged embezzlement of government funds allocated to them for use in various indigenous employment and welfare programs.
Whatever the reason or agenda, the old adage that religion and politics don’t mix is spot on. It’s all a power trip, take Revelation for example, the Antichrist and False Prophet affiliation is purely a marriage of convenience and inevitably, when one is able to stand alone, there is no need for the other.
As for the business activities of churches, for them to attain non profitable institution or charity status, they need to satisfy the certain legislative requirements that are administered by the Department of Gaming and Racing(there’s got to be an irony there) and the Income Tax Assessment Act, which is administered by the ATO. For Hillsong to present their various “investment” acquisitions as not being profitable, they must use the same accountant as the Vatican.
I try not to get up on the soap box too often, so I’ll leave it at that. There is a huge amount of stuff on this website and I’d like to take it all in.
I can relate to your frustration on this topic but, as the bible says, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than fro a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. I don’t think Mr Houston and his cohorts have a needle that size.
April 18th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
“However, Iam aware of moves afoot to bring Hillsong to account ……”
That’s really encouraging….because one would hope that Fair Trading agencies in Australia …somewhere along the line are about enforcement…not just issuing motherhood statements in glossy brochures like …’if you’re using a hammer and nail…don’t bang your thumb’.
Equally…that it’s a matter of resources..(as opposed to Hillsong ‘resources’) rather than a lack of will or conflicts of interests within Fair Trading agencies is also encouraging….because at least in theory ..the oversight system is still in place…if not in practice.
April 19th, 2006 at 12:00 am
DD(#221)
I think I disagree with you there. Possibly more so in regard to the casino than hillsong, but they belong in the same basket.
People with alot of power, and alot of money will always have the edge over the average punter.. Its like illiterate peasant Christians of the middle ages being “instructed” by their bishops in their “pannelled houses” (Haggai) to pay indulgences for spiritual merit. they dont know any better coz they cant read good or write proper, and this ensures their guulliblity to those that seem to be in the know.. I agree with Tim Costello 100%
Hve you heard of urban seed DD? Part of Collins St Baptist in Melb. They do “City walks” where they show you they work they do with the junkies and homeless around the CBD. the tour starts at the top of the Collins St baptist building, on a roof top garden. The volunteer guides, ( usually resident volunteer workers) begin by talking about what is prominent on the city skyline, Skyscrapers, most of them own by banks, insurance giants etc..150 years ago, the most prominent buildings on the melbourne skyline were Church steeples. Now its money and political power. then they take you down to the street below to the alley ways where on a nightly basis they nurse addicts overdoseing. No one sees that side of the CBD, do they? I believe it is the same whereever you find alot of power and alot of money, there is an unseen human cost, usually paid buy the lowest common denominator.. Thas why Religion(true religion) will always be in conflict with scientifid world views like natural selection. Religion does not see the lowest common denominator as expendable. They see them as indespensible, mmore precious than gold.
April 19th, 2006 at 1:44 am
Those city walks sound impressive… Im not sure if they have them up in Sydney, i’ll have look into it. It would be good to shake me out of a comfortable suburban mindset to see where the real needs are.